Your Core Belief(s)!

Halbhh

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I've already addressed this type of response many times now....

If earnestly reading the entire Bible would achieve complete and real understanding, you would not see 100's, if not more, of conflicting conclusions - (via opposing denominations). ;)

Now, I'm only asking you two questions. Remember, you stated you did not want to address more than 1 or 2 at a time:

1. Are you a sheep or a goat?
2. Does a given rule, which works for you over and over again, deem this rule giver divine?

I trust in and am a follower of Christ -- a doer of what He said to do -- but just as Paul said, we don't presume, (we don't make ourselves God or pretend to be God and judge souls, even our own) but continue to work towards the goal. We do get Devine help though! (this isn't a small thing, it may help explain something, how in the world we could do some of these things like forgive the 'unforgiveable' or do good to an 'enemy' (one who tries to harm us)).

--> 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3 NIV

We are 'saved' yet simultaneously being saved (yet to be finished), ongoing, future tense.

2. of course not, and if you attempted to paint it that was my view, it would be merely a straw man of course, and I think you and everyone would see that. So, part of the trouble we are having I'm guessing is you are assuming there isn't anything in my posts further past the first few sentences worth reading. (since you ask about things as if I didn't just directly address them) But that way of reading/discussing would make discussion nearly or entirely impossible. You have to choose whether to read a post that is an answer to your question, fully. Especially in your own thread! If you just claim a person did not address what they directly address (it's happened in this thread already!), then it's really your own error and loss. you end up harming yourself there.
 
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cvanwey

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I trust in and am a follower of Christ -- a doer of what He said to do -- but just as Paul said, we don't presume, (we don't make ourselves God or pretend to be God and judge souls, even our own) but continue to work towards the goal. We do get Devine help though! (this isn't a small thing, it may help explain something, how in the world we could do some of these things like forgive the 'unforgiveable' or do good to an 'enemy' (one who tries to harm us)).

--> 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3 NIV

We are 'saved' yet simultaneously being saved (yet to be finished), ongoing, future tense.

As stated in post #156, your stated way to salvation is completely conflicted. BUT, the fact that I can ask you this simple question, [does Jesus deem you a 'sheep or a goat'?], speaks volumes. Again, all touched upon in post #156.

2. of course not, and if you attempted to paint it that was my view, it would be merely a straw man of course, and I think you and everyone would see that.

I'm afraid not. Please re-read what YOU stated in post #2:

" "the reason someone came to"

I tried doing what Christ said to do, to see if I could gain anything, and His instructions for living work far better than other ways of doing things, I learned by experience.

Experiment and observing outcomes are meaningful to me. If I see the sun rise 1,000 times, I start to understand/believe it will rise tomorrow
. "

So if doing what Confucius does, works for you 1,000 times in a row, is He divine? Since you now state, 'of course not', then you MUST concede THIS is NOT the reason YOU believe.

So, my only follow-up question(s) then becomes:


1. WHY do you actually believe?
2. Is this ACTUAL reason sound?

So, part of the trouble we are having I'm guessing is you are assuming there isn't anything in my posts further past the first few sentences worth reading. (since you ask about things as if I didn't just directly address them) But that way of reading/discussing would make discussion nearly or entirely impossible. You have to choose whether to read a post that is an answer to your question, fully. Especially in your own thread! If you just claim a person did not address what they directly address (it's happened in this thread already!), then it's really your own error and loss. you end up harming yourself there.

The only harm I see here, is that you see that your given 'reason' for belief has been refuted, and now you are back-tracking.
 
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Halbhh

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1. WHY do you actually believe?
I understand now that one of the most key things that happened is that I listened to Jesus's words, without prejudice against them. Truly listened.

Maybe this is subtle, so let me elaborate a bit. Instead of thinking I already knew what he'd said (I'd actually already read the text long before in youth once), or thinking it was just fake (that's a prejudice), or thinking this or that (more prejudices), I actually read as if a new thing, trying to hear just what was meant fully. Without judging it.

Instead of using an existing prejudice (though I was an 'atheist'!), I really did try to read with a full listening, and not trying to judge or close down what it might mean or whether some of it might be as key for life as it is presented (i.e.--"greatest commandment and the second").

Perhaps it takes some practice or ability to do that, but I feel most people could, if they tried, really tried, made effort.
 
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Halbhh

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So if doing what Confucius does, works for you 1,000 times in a row, is He divine?

Did Confucius make any statements (testable or even not, either) that he was more than only a man? (I do see that Confucius believed in an afterlife, but that's not the same as saying one is from God)

Christ said a lot in the gospel accounts, and generally one could do/try out most any of those instructions, in time, with determined attempts. Even the ones that would normally require faith or aid, though of course that would take a lot of self awareness and willingness to take risks for some.
 
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cvanwey

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Did Confucius make any statements (testable or even not, either) that he was more than only a man? (I do see that Confucius believed in an afterlife, but that's not the same as saying one is from God)

Thank you for FINALLY engaging, in relevance. It only took about a dozen attempts :)

Now to answer your concerns. You can follow any rules, for which you deem sound; because they seem logical or work for you again and again. Whether this be from Jesus, Confucius, Muhammad, Xenu, other. BUT, the conclusion, to whether or not they were anything more than wise, does not look to hinge upon how right they were about their given rules.

Now, Jesus does assert He IS the way. --- "He IS the gateway to salvation" apparently? Since giving wisdom does not look to be the measure to proving divinity, what actually does?


Christ said a lot in the gospel accounts, and generally one could do/try out most any of those instructions, in time, with determined attempts. Even the ones that require faith, though of course that would take a lot of self awareness and willingness to take risks for some.

Okay, so? I tried with faith, for over 3 decades. I no longer would consider myself a believer, that He was anything above and beyond Confucius, (i.e. a wise philosopher). Now what?
 
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Halbhh

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Thank you for FINALLY engaging, in relevance. It only took about a dozen attempts :)

Now to answer your concerns. You can follow any rules, for which you deem sound; because they seem logical or work for you again and again. Whether this be from Jesus, Confucius, Muhammad, Xenu, other. BUT, the conclusion, to whether or not they were anything more than wise, does not look to hinge upon how right they were about their given rules.

Now, Jesus does assert He IS the way. --- "He IS the gateway to salvation" apparently? Since giving wisdom does not look to be the measure to proving divinity, what actually does?




Okay, so? I tried with faith, for over 3 decades. I no longer would consider myself a believer, that He was anything above and beyond Confucius, (i.e. a wise philosopher). Now what?

perhaps better in a PM. I'll message you in a bit
 
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cvanwey

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Regardless of where this conversation goes, moving forward, I would like to state, THANK YOU! This topic is generating quite a bit of interest, it seems; but not really to the heart of the requested OP :) Thank you for engaging, in context. :)

The 8 were methodologies of how believers come to God and none are how I came to him. For me, I read scripture and was drawn to him. I wanted him to exist

Looks as though what you are saying here, is that you hope He exists, and in reading His Words, you have more-so become drawn to a conclusion that He is indeed the real deal. Is this a fair assessment?

Also...

Why do you want Him specifically to exist?


(agreed with him, admired his character, desired his love & promises).

You can't be serious, that you agree with all His assertions and commands, do you? Because as @Par5 has already started to demonstrate, we may find this very hard to believe, without quite a bit of rationalization.

At the same time I thought it all entirely possible. If the idea of life after death was difficult, I had already experienced that first-hand (where was I before this life if not dead?)

Can you explain your experience of first-hand life outside of this 'known' one?


As far as discerning God then, I don't know how or if I even did. I can discern him now though, though I can't explain it. It's like knowing but you don't know how you know. This must sound so off to the skeptics I hesitate to say it, yet it's true so how can I deny it?

Do your best. I would really like to know :) How did you discern it was God, verses not God?
 
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Halbhh

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Though a appreciate this, I have to wonder? I'm a completely open book. Why aren't you?
Ah, a big public debate forum can be...well, like a debate too often, where you can feel you do well or poorly, and it's an obstacle to good conversation at times. I see this kind of topic as never about winning or losing.
 
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cvanwey

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Ah, a big public debate forum can be...well, like a debate too often, where you can feel you do well or poorly, and it's an obstacle to good conversation at times. I see this kind of topic as never about winning or losing.

Quite honestly @Halbhh , I see your tactic here, as what I stated in post #1 :( You do not wish to have your core belief(s) challenged. You asked me, and I told you. I do not feel I have received revelation, thus, the question does not apply to me. You claim the same thing, that revelation is not why you believe. But, you are believer. This is the <wedge> which differentiates you and I, regarding this topic.

We have now seemed to get to the bottom of concluding that your reason, as posted in #2, is not really THE reason. You are now apparently redacting that assertion, in some capacity. I kind of already had a hunch. Not because I have 'above level intelligence', but because I've been around the block a few times now.

What IS the reason you believe, and does it stand up to logical scrutiny? I have a gut feeling it has more-so to do with revelation, than you may have admitted prior?.?.?.?.?.?.?
 
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cvanwey

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Ah, a big public debate forum can be...well, like a debate too often, where you can feel you do well or poorly, and it's an obstacle to good conversation at times. I see this kind of topic as never about winning or losing.

And yet, you are here debating... Seems a little suspect, that you only state this now.
 
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Halbhh

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And yet, you are here debating... Seems a little suspect, that you only state this now.
If I'd merely debated, then I'd merely be trying to just "win." Shallow, empty stuff like tactics.
 
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cvanwey

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If I'd merely debated, then I'd merely be trying to just "win." Shallow, empty stuff like tactics.

I'm merely trying to get to the real reason you believe, and then explore it.... You have sense proven it is not for post #2 ;)
 
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Halbhh

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@Rachel20
I noticed Par5 leaving out key parts of a story he points to and creating a false impression that way:

"I keep raising such slaughter recorded in the bible, the slaughter of the Amalekites and the Canaanites, and I make no apology for doing so."

But notice that he left out the most crucial parts.

First, why was such a drastic removal necessary -- Why the Canaanite cities were removed:

29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
Deuteronomy 12 ESV

They burned little children in fires to their idols. It's about as awful an evil as humans can do, really. It's hard to even imagine anything more horrific in a way. Innocent children burned in fires.

That child murdering culture had to be removed so that no trace of it remained.

But...what about the mixed population that was removed?

All the people that were put to the sword.

Because God exists they are transported (to a new place) for some, and for some others, "asleep" (wording of Christ) and will awaken, because God exists, and He cancels the first death, that of this mortal body.

It's like a Policeman that needs to stop an evil cult with hostages they are actively executing each day.

The careful and wise Policeman gasses the entire complex with knockout gas so that everyone falls asleep, and then transports all the lifeless bodies to the courthouse and jail, where he separates the innocent from the guilty, and then revives everyone to face the Fair and Just and Merciful Judge.

But not without a 2nd chance for at least some it seems! --

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah..."
1 Peter 3 ESV

We see here that Christ himself went to the spirits in prison to proclaim to them the gospel! They seem to be simply people doing wrong in life and not having heard the gospel, even.

Fair, Just, Merciful.
 
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cvanwey

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I understand now that one of the most key things that happened is that I listened to Jesus's words, without prejudice against them. Truly listened.

Maybe this is subtle, so let me elaborate a bit. Instead of thinking I already knew what he'd said (I'd actually already read the text long before in youth once), or thinking it was just fake (that's a prejudice), or thinking this or that (more prejudices), I actually read as if a new thing, trying to hear just what was meant fully. Without judging it.

Instead of using an existing prejudice (though I was an 'atheist'!), I really did try to read with a full listening, and not trying to judge or close down what it might mean or whether some of it might be as key for life as it is presented (i.e.--"greatest commandment and the second").

Perhaps it takes some practice or ability to do that, but I feel most people could, if they tried, really tried, made effort.

This again circles back to the exact same logic @Halbhh ... If the words rang true to you, or rang inspirational, or rang whatever-for-that-matter, does this mean He is divine? Because many read opposing claimed and stated holy books, and reach the exact same conclusion(s).

I say no, this is not how you determine if the words contained in the book are from a divine being.
 
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Halbhh

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This again circles back to the exact same logic @Halbhh ... If the words rang true to you, or rang inspirational, or rang whatever-for-that-matter, does this mean He is divine? Because many read opposing claimed and stated holy books, and reach the exact same conclusion(s).

I say no, this is not how you determine if the words contained in the book are from a divine being.
That's a good question!

Why is God the one we read of in the common bible, instead of some other competing texts, or for that why would a rational person ever think that the version of God in the common bible is better/more accurate than just the 'Perennial Philosophy' for instance (which is partly true in some ways), i.e. that 'all paths lead to God'...?

-->Let's look at the 'fall' of man, leave out other important things in the Garden of Eden story(and parable) and just focus on the 'fall' alone.

1) We were created to be essentially like God (not merely superficially 'in His image' but more than superficial), even:
"you are gods" Christ reminded:

John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?
as in Psalm 82:6.

Among other things this means we have a true (full, unhindered) freedom to act, like God -- real autonomy in the most fundamental way.

(In psychology terms: "agency", the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices; being able to think and act for ourselves, on our own, truly independently.)

Do you agree basic ability to think and act -- agency -- is our basic ability as humans?
That we really can think and act, on our own? That we have that most essential "freedom"?

If you agree (you might not!, and if not, just raise the issue and we might discuss more), then continuing:

2) In the case of "yes" consider this Garden of Eden parable summary of the 'fall' --

With real freedom to act, every last human would in time decide at some point to trust their own choices above God's parental instruction -- the basic situation of deciding oneself to eat of the "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" --

-- deciding for oneself what is "good" and "bad", instead of trusting only in the wisdom of the Parent alone.

Of course there was more: not only for Eve, Adam to decide to be independent (which isn't a wrong at all) but instead another profound choice -- to distrust God.

To distrust is a completely separate choice than merely to act independently (which they'd already been doing).

Distrust also we see in not just a minor little small way, but to specifically accept the (false) accusation of wrongdoing of God specifically, as the text shows --

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

See> Not simply to go out on one's own, but more: to specifically accept the idea (trick, false idea) that God is doing evil and withholding a basic good right.

(which He was not withholding -- a good parent does not let a toddler drive a full sized automobile, because they will harm themselves and/or others, potentially very seriously)

So, it was not about being independent, which isn't evil. It was about distrusting God.

Of course it's obviously a dangerous and harmful choice/life direction/sea change/wrong for a toddler to distrust a wise, loving, good-acting Parent -- the one Who is their only means of Life for quite a long many further years of total dependency....

But this kinda steal the car and drive is what most all or all children (all individual humans) would do at some point, with freedom, agency, quite naturally: disobey the parent, and go do something for which a good parent will have to then teach them right and wrong concerning.

A good Parent will aid children to learn right and wrong.

"There's a reason, little children, that we don't light the family pet on fire. I'm going to have to keep you away from the cat for an entire long day."

(even though fire is a wonderfully interesting curiosity to a toddler, as is pet psychology too, they just aren't wise enough yet to manage freedom, fire, and pets with total independence; not old enough).

Now, a good and wise parent (as opposed to a much less good parent) lets children learn the lessons they can learn on their own for themselves by natural consequences.

"You refused over and over to come eat lunch when I called. So, now all you have until supper is just these apples and this bread, and you have to manage for yourself, since the rest of us ate lunch already." (I know you had a big breakfast, the parent considers to themself)

Learning by natural consequence. It's for the best.

Do you agree? (if not, perhaps reading an article about teaching children by natural consequences would help to explain how/why it is best)

We have to learn.

But God foresaw all of this of course, and planned ahead for our reconciliation, and total rescue from the cold.

Now, God is a better parent though than we are normally used to here, and He does not force us to come back to Him.

He has too much respect for us to force us.

But He will show up and intervene more than once to give us chances to turn, confess our wrong, be reconciled.

And He came in person to help, at the right time, when we'd learned by experience enough to begin to realize we actually do need a Mentor.

A Guide.

That we didn't know everything. When teenagers think they know everything, it's common, but it's also just mistaken.

But Christ went to the spirits in prison -- the dead from any time it seems, even those who had filled the world with violence and wrongdoing -- He went/goes to them also with the message of reconciliation:

'For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey [trust enough to follow]...'
1 Peter 3 ESV
 
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cvanwey

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That's a good question!

Why is God the one we read of in the common bible, instead of some other competing texts, or for that why would a rational person ever think that the version of God in the common bible is better/more accurate than just the 'Perennial Philosophy' for instance (which is partly true in some ways), i.e. that 'all paths lead to God'...?

-->Let's look at the 'fall' of man, leave out other important things in the Garden of Eden story(and parable) and just focus on the 'fall' alone.

1) We were created to be essentially like God (not merely superficially 'in His image' but more than superficial), even:
"you are gods" Christ reminded:

John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods'?
as in Psalm 82:6.

Among other things this means we have a true (full, unhindered) freedom to act, like God -- real autonomy in the most fundamental way.

(In psychology terms: "agency", the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices; being able to think and act for ourselves, on our own, truly independently.)

Do you agree basic ability to think and act -- agency -- is our basic ability as humans?
That we really can think and act, on our own? That we have that most essential "freedom"?

If you agree (you might not!, and if not, just raise the issue and we might discuss more), then continuing:

Thank you for your response, but nothing above looks to lend any further credence to my posed question.

Seems quite possible the author wrote from their own thoughts, or thoughts relayed from other humans in oral tradition, instruction, etc... and nothing more. Which ultimately raises the question:

Did God create people or did people "create" god?

Is there anything within the text which could NOT have been concocted by human intelligence alone?

Is it even possible you are just reading a collection of literature, which really 'speaks to you', but is not from the divine???


2) In the case of "yes" consider this Garden of Eden parable summary of the 'fall' --

With real freedom to act, every last human would in time decide at some point to trust their own choices above God's parental instruction -- the basic situation of deciding oneself to eat of the "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" --

-- deciding for oneself what is "good" and "bad", instead of trusting only in the wisdom of the Parent alone.

Of course there was more: not only for Eve, Adam to decide to be independent (which isn't a wrong at all) but instead another profound choice -- to distrust God.

To distrust is a completely separate choice than merely to act independently (which they'd already been doing).

Distrust also we see in not just a minor little small way, but to specifically accept the (false) accusation of wrongdoing of God specifically, as the text shows --

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

See> Not simply to go out on one's own, but more: to specifically accept the idea (trick, false idea) that God is doing evil and withholding a basic good right.

(which He was not withholding -- a good parent does not let a toddler drive a full sized automobile, because they will harm themselves and/or others, potentially very seriously)

So, it was not about being independent, which isn't evil. It was about distrusting God.

Of course it's obviously a dangerous and harmful choice/life direction/sea change/wrong for a toddler to distrust a wise, loving, good-acting Parent -- the one Who is their only means of Life for quite a long many further years of total dependency....

But this kinda steal the car and drive is what most all or all children (all individual humans) would do at some point, with freedom, agency, quite naturally: disobey the parent, and go do something for which a good parent will have to then teach them right and wrong concerning.

A good Parent will aid children to learn right and wrong.

"There's a reason, little children, that we don't light the family pet on fire. I'm going to have to keep you away from the cat for an entire long day."

(even though fire is a wonderfully interesting curiosity to a toddler, as is pet psychology too, they just aren't wise enough yet to manage freedom, fire, and pets with total independence; not old enough).

Now, a good and wise parent (as opposed to a much less good parent) lets children learn the lessons they can learn on their own for themselves by natural consequences.

"You refused over and over to come eat lunch when I called. So, now all you have until supper is just these apples and this bread, and you have to manage for yourself, since the rest of us ate lunch already." (I know you had a big breakfast, the parent considers to themself)

Learning by natural consequence. It's for the best.

Do you agree? (if not, perhaps reading an article about teaching children by natural consequences would help to explain how/why it is best)

We have to learn.

But God foresaw all of this of course, and planned ahead for our reconciliation, and total rescue from the cold.

Now, God is a better parent though than we are normally used to here, and He does not force us to come back to Him.

He has too much respect for us to force us.

But He will show up and intervene more than once to give us chances to turn, confess our wrong, be reconciled.

And He came in person to help, at the right time, when we'd learned by experience enough to begin to realize we actually do need a Mentor.

A Guide.

That we didn't know everything. When teenagers think they know everything, it's common, but it's also just mistaken.

But Christ went to the spirits in prison -- the dead from any time it seems, even those who had filled the world with violence and wrongdoing -- He went/goes to them also with the message of reconciliation:

'For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey [trust enough to follow]...'
1 Peter 3 ESV

Nothing here changes my same fundamental question.

If a book is written, and it compels you like no other, does this book qualify as being given from the divine?
 
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Halbhh

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Thank you for your response, but nothing above looks to lend any further credence to my posed question.

Seems quite possible the author wrote from their own thoughts, or thoughts relayed from other humans in oral tradition, instruction, etc... and nothing more. Which ultimately raises the question:

Did God create people or did people "create" god?

Is there anything within the text which could NOT have been concocted by human intelligence alone?

Is it even possible you are just reading a collection of literature, which really 'speaks to you', but is not from the divine???




Nothing here changes my same fundamental question.

If a book is written, and it compels you like no other, does this book qualify as being given from the divine?
I suppose it depends on what is said in point #2 -- do you think you yourself have perfect understanding of right and wrong that is complete?

One might, after enough learning/reflecting, begin to think so at some moment after some good insights and breakthroughs. Reasonably think: "That's it! Now I've got it, the full key thing."

But...years passed, and life unfolded (often wonderfully)...and I learned new things over time. So the 'great' things I'd already learned at age 29, at age 35, even at age 44 -- it turned out those very good things weren't the End. They were not complete knowledge of all wisdom.

Consider -- My life experience taught me over time (not as a youth), that we learn as we grow older. There is something to the idea of "wisdom" after all, I learned. There is such a thing as a wiser truth I didn't already figure out on my own -- later decades of time would finally show, in retrospect -- no matter how well and long I thought, or read widely in good thinkers in earlier decades. That when I found some profound insights, that it wasn't the end of learning.

Have you found you learn more wisdom over time, over the years, past 30?

If so, then there is more wisdom yet that one doesn't know yet, logically, by extrapolation.
 
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cvanwey

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I suppose it depends on what is said in point #2 -- do you think you yourself have perfect understanding of right and wrong that is complete?

Certainly not.

2K years ago, I might have been a-okay with slavery. 2K years ago, I might have thought being homosexual is bad, as if it was a choice. 2K years ago, I might have been perfectly fine with placing women below men. 2K years ago, I might have thought a true Adam and Eve existed. 2K years ago, I might have asserted there existed an actual flood, aided by Noah. I would have also believed there truly existed an Exodus.

Today, I think none of the things above. Would I have been right then, or am I right now?


One might, after enough learning/reflecting, begin to think so at some moment after some good insights and breakthroughs. Reasonably think: "That's it! Now I've got it, the full key thing."

But...years passed, and life unfolded (often wonderfully)...and I learned new things over time. So the 'great' things I'd already learned at age 29, at age 35, even at age 44 -- it turned out those very good things weren't the End. They were not complete knowledge of all wisdom.

I certainly admit I do NOT have all the answers. But please be advised.... Just because I do not know the answer to a question, does not mean I cannot still effectively rule out your assertion.

Case/point:

"5K years ago, the world is flat"
"75 years ago, the world is a perfect sphere"
"25 years ago, the world is more pear-shaped"

50 years from now, we may make a new discovery. Does this mean I must still leave the assumption from '5K years ago' on the table????


Consider -- My life experience taught me over time (not as a youth), that we learn as we grow older. There is something to the idea of "wisdom" after all, I learned. There is such a thing as a wiser truth I didn't already figure out on my own -- later decades of time would finally show, in retrospect -- no matter how well and long I thought, or read widely in good thinkers in earlier decades. That when I found some profound insights in my late 20s, that it wasn't the end of learning.

Okay?
 
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