Endtimes Eventism, disagreement with

nolidad said:

The 1/3 of Israel that survives teh 7 year tribulation get saved in teh last three days of teh tribulation as per Zech. and Psalms.

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There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.


Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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grafted branch said:

Would you agree that Paul was referring to the remnant here and that it is the remnant of national Israel that inherits the promise because they are sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus?

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No.


Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



We find only one people of God in John 10:16.

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Douggg said:

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

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IMO Microsoft did not invent the cut-'n-paste tool so that the 70th week of Daniel could be ripped out of its chronological place in Daniel's prophecy and pasted into the final seven years of this Age. So realizing this, I had to go find a place in scripture where it states that we ought to look out for Dan.9:27 being fulfilled in the final seven years of the Age, but I found none. All I found was a reference to the reign of the beast and it said 42 months, and it said that during his reign, the beast would make war against the saints and overcome them. Then I looked in Daniel 7 and 12 and found the exact same thing:

"I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them" Daniel 7:21

"And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." Revelation 13:7

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." Daniel 12:7

"And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven,
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets." Revelation 10:5-7

So the seventh trumpet will sound at the close of the 42 months during which the beast reigned, and during which the beast had been making war against the saints and overcoming them.

In Revelation 11 the two witnesses rise from the dead and straight afterward we read of the seventh trumpet sounding. They had been killed by the beast - and the resurrection of all those who died in Christ takes place at the same time:

"For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Douggg said:

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

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I believe there is a FP coming who is also the Antichrist, yes.

Douggg said:

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

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How can Satan be cast down only at the end of the Age when he was already cast down when Christ was caught up to God and to His throne?

Douggg said:

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

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Well we all hope the Jews will become believers, and there are hints in scripture that it may occur one day, but nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state what you explicitly state above, but you state it as fact, and you are quite obviously speaking yet again of the false notion that Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, so statement #8 makes no sense at all, IMO.

Douggg said:

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth

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Statements 2, 6 and 9 are the only ones I agree with, and the only ones I believe you have correct. But IMO 3/9 is a fail. So either I fail or you fail. We can't both be passing the "understanding of prophecy test".

DavidPT said:

I likely don't explain the following very well, but maybe it will be good enough to get the point meant across.


Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Let's apply the above to the following.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

What do these saints do in this situation? Do they seek to save their own by life by worshiping the beast, thus not allowing it to overcome them by having them put to death if they refuse to worship it? Or do they instead not worship it, thus lose their life because they don't, yet preserve it, the fact they are rewarded with overcoming and will receive eternal life in the end?

In this situation the beast overcomes them by causing them to lose their life in this age. But as it turns out, the real winner is not the beast, because what he did to them is only temporary, the fact these will rise to eternal life because they are overcomers, and that the beast will be rewarded with being cast into the LOF. Had these saints done this instead---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it---they would have joined the beast in the LOF in the end, because they failed to overcome.

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I see your point and I’m not trying to convince anyone, as we each are going to have interpretation’s that are based on things like OSAS or NOSAS, as one of your previous threads discussed.

I see national Israel being overcome and Satan getting the victory over them when we read in John 8:44 the Jews are told they are of their father the devil and they went on to killed their Messiah. Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. To me this would be considered a victory for Satan because I don’t think national Israel will ever have the status before God that they once did.

I personally don’t consider it a victory for Satan when a believer dies, but I realize that others do. So I just agree that there is disagreement on these points.

BABerean2 said:

No.


Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



We find only one people of God in John 10:16.

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So who is the remnant of Israel? Are they a remnant of people from national Israel or are they a remnant of people that came from true believers?

BABerean2 said:

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.


Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

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Yeah there is! It is called teh 70th week of Daniel!

Jesus does not retiurn at teh end of Chapter 6. He returns in chapter 19.

Why do the kings of the earth fear?

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You
continue to make the same error over and over in every thread you write in.

You forget that the seventh seal (which comes after the 6th seal) starts the seven trumpets. And after the trumpets have sounded come the bowls.

You
also forget that the kings of the earth at Jesus return are not cowering in fear- but marshalled together to fight the returning Lord Jesus!

Revelation 16:12-14
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

BABerean2 said:

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

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This is what happens when you love to allegorize- you produce lousy and erroneous exegesis. Teh rapture happens at teh last trump and the last trump mentioned by Paul is not teh 7th trump sounded by the angel.

BABerean2 said:

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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And this is why you fail so much! REcapitulation only works when one rewrites the Scriptures to fit their agenda.

The seals are not the trumpets which are not the bowls! Every one of the 20 judgments (as the seventh seal introduces the trumpets) are different and do not correspond ot each other!

The judgments are consecutive! they follow each other, in order. We do not need "mystics" deciphering the future for us and do grave injustice to the Scriptures in the process.

grafted branch said:

So who is the remnant of Israel? Are they a remnant of people from national Israel or are they a remnant of people that came from true believers?

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@grafted branch Not sure you understood what I meant here so I've rephrased it:

They are believers who also happen to be genetic descendants of Abraham. The remnant of the Gentiles believe in Christ. They are believers who happen to be non-genetic descendants of Abraham.

Together they are the saints who are referred to in the Revelation: Abraham was never sawed in half to accommodate anyone. There is only one God, one Spirit, one Lord Jesus Christ, one faith, and one father Abraham.

BABerean2 said:

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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This guy Hawkins thinks too much and listens too little.

Revelation has unfolded 7 times ?

The Bible is literally true! But this guy, in order to justify his own allegorical reinterpretation forgets that believing in literalism recognizes symbolic uses of language. But we recognize that teh Bible defines its own symbols.

JOhn was not some super educated mystic. He was given a vision. He wrote teh vision as it appeared and did not encode it with mystic images.

But let me ask you in sincerity.

Why should we accept this guys allegorical reinterpretation and understanding as He calls it anymore authoratatrive than the myriads of others who have allegorized REvelation and differe from this guy?

What special authority does he have and You (as you seem to be his disciple as far as revelation understanding oges) so that we should accept your opinion as what god intended and not a more literal view or one of the many other allegorical views presented down through the centuries.

DavidPT said:

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Let's apply the above to the following.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

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I thought about this and would like your opinion, why does the beast only have his power for 42 months if Luke 17:33 is to be used to help interpret Revelation 13:5-7?

nolidad said:

This guy Hawkins thinks too much and listens too little.

Revelation has unfolded 7 times ?

The Bible is literally true! But this guy, in order to justify his own allegorical reinterpretation forgets that believing in literalism recognizes symbolic uses of language. But we recognize that teh Bible defines its own symbols.

JOhn was not some super educated mystic. He was given a vision. He wrote teh vision as it appeared and did not encode it with mystic images.

But let me ask you in sincerity.

Why should we accept this guys allegorical reinterpretation and understanding as He calls it anymore authoratatrive than the myriads of others who have allegorized REvelation and differe from this guy?

What special authority does he have and You (as you seem to be his disciple as far as revelation understanding oges) so that we should accept your opinion as what god intended and not a more literal view or one of the many other allegorical views presented down through the centuries.

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Though I don't agree with everything I've seen you say in other posts I agree with everything you say in the above post.

nolidad said:

This guy Hawkins thinks too much and listens too little.

Revelation has unfolded 7 times ?

The Bible is literally true! But this guy, in order to justify his own allegorical reinterpretation forgets that believing in literalism recognizes symbolic uses of language. But we recognize that teh Bible defines its own symbols.

JOhn was not some super educated mystic. He was given a vision. He wrote teh vision as it appeared and did not encode it with mystic images.

But let me ask you in sincerity.

Why should we accept this guys allegorical reinterpretation and understanding as He calls it anymore authoratatrive than the myriads of others who have allegorized REvelation and differe from this guy?

What special authority does he have and You (as you seem to be his disciple as far as revelation understanding oges) so that we should accept your opinion as what god intended and not a more literal view or one of the many other allegorical views presented down through the centuries.

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All of the things in that post except the last two lines came from me, instead of from Pastor Hawkins.

My pastor, and Pastor Hawkins have come to the same conclusion as me.
John did not see one vision which is recorded in the Book of Revelation.
Instead, John saw several visions which are recorded in the Book of Revelation.

Why do so many people ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:18?

Why do they ignore Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


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nolidad said:

Yeah there is! It is called teh 70th week of Daniel!

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Then how do you explain the time period when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews as described below by Paul? How long was this period of time, and when did it occur?
(See also Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Galatians 1:14-18.)

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


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Douggg said:

I created this thread for anyone who wants to disagree with Endtimes Eventism, and its 9 principles.

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

2. there is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and rising from the dead on the third day.

3. that Ezekiel 39 establishes the infallible timeline framework for the end times, the beginning and ending of the 70th week. Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29, having returned to this earth.

4. that end times events in the bible have to fit within, just prior to, and after, and comply with that framework.

5. that Christians escape the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath associated with it takes place, by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth.

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I want to know if #9 is actually 10,000 earth years? Or is it just one day?

Jaxxi said:

I want to know if #9 is actually 10,000 earth years? Or is it just one day?

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He is referring to his understanding of Revelation 20 which says that the dragon, Satan, is bound, while Christ reigns for a thousand years (not 10,000 years).

I'm an amillennialist, so I don't believe it's a literal thousand years. I believe it's referring figuratively to the New Testament era because scripture teaches that Christ is reigning now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23) and that we all spiritually have part in His resurrection (His was the first resurrection - Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23, Rev 1:5) and are priests of God and of Christ now (Rev 1:5-6).

The word "thousand" is used figuratively a number of times in scripture such as the references to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9, 1 Chron 16:15) or the reference to the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10).

Douggg said:

I created this thread for anyone who wants to disagree with Endtimes Eventism, and its 9 principles.

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

2. there is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and rising from the dead on the third day.

3. that Ezekiel 39 establishes the infallible timeline framework for the end times, the beginning and ending of the 70th week. Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29, having returned to this earth.

4. that end times events in the bible have to fit within, just prior to, and after, and comply with that framework.

5. that Christians escape the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath associated with it takes place, by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth.

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Douggg, you are a trier! But you are quite intractable and despite being refuted in many of your beliefs, you just keep coming back with the same old, same old unscriptural notions. Like the joke of an 'anytime rapture'.

Your 9 points:
1/ Yes the 70th 'week' of Daniel remains to be fulfilled. It will commence when a peace agreement is signed between the leader of the soon to be formed One World Govt and the leaders of the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land. As mentioned in Isaiah 28:14-15

2/ Right; No one comes to the Father except thru Me. John 10:9

3/ Wrong, the 7 years of clearing up after the G/M destruction, has nothing to do with the final 7 years. Some of it will overlap.

4/ Too imprecise to answer. The Sixth and Seventh Seals must happen before the last 7 years.

5/ Everyone will experience the fiery wrath of the Lord. 1 Peter 4:12, + There is no 'rapture to heaven' of anyone at any time.

6/ The Anti-Christ will be revealed at the mid point of the final 7 years. As Revelation 13 describes.
There is no human King of Israel. Jesus the rightful King will rule all the world after His Return.

7/ Right, Satan, in the body of the Anti-Christ will be confined to the earth for the final 1260 days of this age. Revelation 12:6-17

8/ The people who call themselves Jews and their nation Israel, will be gone after the Sixth Seal disaster. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:1-14, +

9/ Yes, the Millennium will be a wonderful time. Those who have proved their faith and trust in God, will be rewarded. Revelation 5:9-10

Spiritual Jew said:

He is referring to his understanding of Revelation 20 which says that the dragon, Satan, is bound, while Christ reigns for a thousand years (not 10,000 years).

I'm an amillennialist, so I don't believe it's a literal thousand years. I believe it's referring figuratively to the New Testament era because scripture teaches that Christ is reigning now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23) and that we all spiritually have part in His resurrection (His was the first resurrection - Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23, Rev 1:5) and are priests of God and of Christ now (Rev 1:5-6).

The word "thousand" is used figuratively a number of times in scripture such as the references to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9, 1 Chron 16:15) or the reference to the cattle on a thousand hills (Psalm 50:10).

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Yes but the Bible says
' But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.'1 Peter 3:8

So how long is it? You didn't reference this at all.

Jaxxi said:

Yes but the Bible says
' But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.'1 Peter 3:8

So how long is it? You didn't reference this at all.

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I didn't reference that because it has nothing to do with Revelation 20, although that verse does show that a reference to a thousand years does not need to be taken literally.

But, it's not as if we could interpret Revelation 20 to be speaking of one day instead of 1000 years, as if Christ would only be reigning for one day and Satan would only be bound for one day.

Again, I see Revelation 20 as speaking of the New Testament era between the first and second coming of Christ (with Satan's little season happening at the the end of the thousand years until His second coming) and Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His return, so we don't know how long the figurative thousand years will be.

Douggg said:

One thousand years, like the years you are experiencing now.

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Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

@grafted branch Not sure you understood what I meant here so I've rephrased it:

They are believers who also happen to be genetic descendants of Abraham. The remnant of the Gentiles believe in Christ. They are believers who happen to be non-genetic descendants of Abraham.

Together they are the saints who are referred to in the Revelation: Abraham was never sawed in half to accommodate anyone. There is only one God, one Spirit, one Lord Jesus Christ, one faith, and one father Abraham.

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Thanks for rephrasing your reply, I’m really not sure what others believe here but I do agree with what you posted other than who the saints are in Revelation (specifically Revelation 11 and 13).

When I asked baberean 2 if Galatians 3:26-29 was referring to the remnant of Israel he said “no”. He didn’t say who he thinks the remnant are but if they are not included in Galatians 3:26-29 then he must have some other kind of theology I’m not familiar with.

I see several people agreeing and liking the various posts that seem to be pointing to national Israel never having any kind special status with God prior to the cross. I’m certainly not trying to change anyone’s views here but I also can’t seem to understand how they are arriving at their conclusion.