Free Will in the Early Church

Bond-servant of Christ

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Only after Salvation. You are bound by sin and a slave to Satan before that. Because of this many think, they are saved but only have an idol they think is Christ.

then why would it say, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) and also John 5:39-40, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life", if there is no "free will" before a sinner is saved? These verses clearly disagree with your theology!
 
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Bond-servant of Christ

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Scripture teaches that, even though man's will is not free (Jn 8:34) and, therefore, he is unable to obey God (Ro 8:7), man is responsible for sin (Ro 3:19b, 14:12).

this understanding is nonsense! so a person does not "freely" rape or murder, or steal, but though they can and do, they are "responsible"? This is double-talk and not what the Bible teaches! So, God is the ultimate "cause" of the henious crimes that are committed around the world today? Which makes God the "author" our all our sins, and no better than the devil!
 
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Clare73

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this understanding is nonsense! so a person does not "freely" rape or murder, or steal, but though they can and do, they are "responsible"? This is double-talk and not what the Bible teaches! So, God is the ultimate "cause" of the henious crimes that are committed around the world today? Which makes God the "author" our all our sins, and no better than the devil!
You're not understanding the issue.

Man has to be able to do the good (obey in all things) if he is to be held responsible for not doing the good (for sinning).
That is the premise of this age-old argument on free will.
The meaning of free will in this age-old argument is: self-power (freedom) to do the
good; i.e., obey God in all things at all times.
Unless man is free to do that, the argument is that he cannot be held responsible for failing to do so; i.e., sin.

The first thing we need to understand about the argument is that the Bible is not in agreement with this premise--man does not have free will in the sense of this argument.

There is much more to be said. . .
.
 
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Bond-servant of Christ

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You're not understanding the issue.

you are not stating what the Bible says, but using "philosophy" to explain the plain teachings of the Bible. ALL humans are born with "free will", which is the "ability" to do right and wrong, to accept or reject things, like the Gospel Message, as it says in places like Acts 13:46, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles". Here it was the Jews that rejected the Gospel for their salvation, and they, not God, considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. These are actions of self-will that there unregenerate Jews had the ability to carry out.
 
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Clare73

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you are not stating what the Bible says, but using "philosophy" to explain the plain teachings of the Bible. ALL humans are born with "free will", which is the "ability" to do right and wrong, to accept or reject things, like the Gospel Message, as it says in places like Acts 13:46, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles". Here it was the Jews that rejected the Gospel for their salvation, and they, not God, considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. These are actions of self-will that there unregenerate Jews had the ability to carry out.
Okay, I got off to a bad start. It's not that I am not starting with the Bible. It's that I am starting with the argument regarding responsibility and free will which men make, the Bible's response will follow.

So, I am not saying we are not responsible for all our moral choices. . .we are.
I would like to be sinless. That's a morally good, lawful, desirable, worthy choice, pleasing to God.
Am I free to choose to do that, or am I restrained from doing that? I am restrained.
So I am saying that we are not free to make all moral choices.

The angels in heaven are, and always were, free and unrestrained to make that choice, but I am not.
Their will is completely free, mine is not, my free will is limited.
Yet I am still responsible for failing to live a sinless life, responsible for the sin which restrains me from doing so.

That is my first point.



.
 
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Hammster

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then why would it say, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) and also John 5:39-40, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life", if there is no "free will" before a sinner is saved? These verses clearly disagree with your theology!
The Bible tells us that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Can slaves make free choices? Yes. But the choices are limited by who their master is.
 
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Dave L

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then why would it say, "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30) and also John 5:39-40, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life", if there is no "free will" before a sinner is saved? These verses clearly disagree with your theology!
But only the born again (saved) can understand the scriptures.
“Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” Luke 24:45 (KJV 1900)
 
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fhansen

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Before the time of Augustine, 354-430, there are no fathers in the early Church, as far are I am able to see from my research, who taught that humans did no longer possess a “free will”, and that this “freedom” was completely destroyed when Adam and Eve fell. What I have seen in the writings of the early Church fathers, some of whom I have quoted below, is that from the earliest time, in fact Clement of Rome lived when most of the Apostles were still alive, and they clearly taught that humans did not lose this ability to choose.

Augustine's own teaching on this is not what the Holy Bible teaches, like his theology on the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, where he held the demonic view, that the “ransom” Jesus paid with His death, was to the devil! If this blasphemous teaching was that of any of the cults, like the JW's, it would be condemned by the strongest language possible. But, because it is by a friend of the “Reformed”, Augustine can “get away” with his blatant HERESY!

Ransom to Satan Theory: This theory was developed by Origen (A.D. 185–254), and it advocated that Satan held people captive as a victor in war. This theory, which was also held by Augustine, advocated that because Satan held people captive, a ransom had to be paid, not to God, but to Satan. In response to this view it should be noted that God’s holiness, not Satan’s, was offended, and payment (ransom) had to be made to God to avert His wrath. Furthermore, Satan did not have the power to free man; God alone had the power. This theory is false because it makes Satan the benefactor of Christ’s death. This view has too high a view of Satan; the cross was a judgment of Satan, not a ransom to Satan.” (Paul Enns; The Moody Handbook of Theology, p. 312)

Clement of Rome 35-99 A.D.

There is also another error of the demons, which they suggest to the senses of men, that they should think that those things which they suffer, they suffer from such as are called gods, in order that thereby, offering sacrifices and gifts, as if to propitiate them, they may strengthen the worship of false religion, and avoid us who are interested in their salvation, that they may be freed from error; but this they do, as I have said, not knowing that these things are suggested to them by demons, for fear they should be saved. It is therefore in the power of every one, since man has been made possessed of free-will, whether he shall hear us to life, or the demons to destruction (Recognitions (Book IV, ch. 19)

Ignatius 35-107

Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men-the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, ch v)

Justin Martyr 110-165

But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins (The Second Apology of St. Justin Martyr, ch. 7)

Irenaeus of Lyons 120-202

Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.

This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do. (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37.i)

Clement of Alexandria 150–215

For nothing is more perfect than what is perfect. And divinely the expression if you will showed the self-determination of the soul holding converse with Him. For choice depended on the man as being free; but the gift on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing and are exceedingly earnest, and ask, that so their salvation may become their own. For God compels not (for compulsion is repugnant to God), but supplies to those who seek, and bestows on those who ask, and opens to those who knock. If you will, then, if you really will, and art not deceiving yourself, acquire what you lack. (Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?, X)

Tertullian 160-225

I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature. For it was not by his face, and by the lineaments of his body, though they were so varied in his human nature, that he expressed his likeness to the form of God; but he showed his stamp in that essence which he derived from God Himself (that is, the spiritual, which answered to the form of God), and in the freedom and power of his will. This his state was confirmed even by the very law which God then imposed upon him. For a law would not be imposed upon one who had it not in his power to render that obedience which is due to law; nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will. So in the Creator's subsequent laws also you will find, when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book II, ch. v)

Hyppolytus 170-235

And that by Himself in person He might prove that God made nothing evil, and that man possesses the capacity of self-determination, inasmuch as he is able to will and not to will, and is endued with power to do both (Hippolytus: Refutation of All Heresies chap 29)

Origen 184-254

Every soul has the power and choice to do everything that is good. But because this good feature in human nature had been betrayed when the chance of sin was offered... the "fragrance it gives forth"(Song 2:13), when it is redeemed by grace and restored by the teaching of the Word of God, is that very fragrance which the Creator had bestowed at the beginning and sin had taken away....The grace which [the soul] had first received from the Creator, was lost, and now was recovered. (De Principiis, chs 7, 9)

Cyprian 200-258

That the liberty of believing or of not believing is placed in free choice
In Deuteronomy: Lo, I have set before your face life and death, good and evil. Choose for yourself life, that you may live. Also in Isaiah: And if you be willing, and hear me, you shall eat the good of the land. But if you be unwilling, and will not hear me, the sword shall consume you. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken these things. Also in the Gospel according to Luke: The kingdom of God is within you. (Treatise 12, Third Book, 52)

Methodius (Bishop of Olympus) 260-312

but only the object for which he was made. I say therefore that God, purposing thus to honour man, and to grant him an understanding of better things, has given him the power of being able to do what he wishes, and commends the employment of his power for better things; not that He deprives him again of free-will, but wishes to deprives him again of free-will, but wishes to point out the better way. For the power is present with him, and he receives the commandment; but God exhorts him to turn his power of choice to better things. For as a father exhorts his son, who has power to learn his lessons, to give more attention to them inasmuch as, while he points out this as the better course, he does not deprive his son of the power which he possessed, even if he be not inclined to learn willingly; so I do not think that God, while He urges on man to obey His commands, deprives him of the power of purposing and withholding obedience.

Arnobius 297-303

does not He free all alike who invites all alike? or does He thrust back or repel any one from the kindness of the Supreme who gives to all alike the power of coming to Him,-to men of high rank, to the meanest slaves, to women, to boys? To all, He says, the fountain of life is open (Commentary on John 4:13)
While Augustine naturally emphasized the role of grace in his battle against Pelagianism, even he did not exclude the role of man’s will to the degree that some more modern theologies have. He still maintained that man could say “no”, that he could resist and reject the grace intended to save him. And historically in any case the church, in both the east and west, consistently maintained the position that man’s will is necessarily involved- from the beginnings of the faith until this day.
 
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Dave L

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While Augustine emphasized the role of grace in his battle against Pelagianism, he still did not exclude the role of man’s will to the degree that some more modern theologies have. He still maintained that man could say “no”, that he could resist and reject the grace intended to save him. And historically the church maintained that position regardless.
Total depravity rules out free will.
 
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fhansen

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Free to sin? Yes. Free to discern God in truth? No.
Then there’s no real freedom. And so no reason to appeal to man with the light of the gospel. Nor to instruct him to remain in that light once he’s experienced and embraced it. No real reason for the Bible at all for that matter. And yet the Bible exists for that very purpose, because man needs to know his choices- and so is filled with just such appeals and instructions from beginning to end.
 
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Dave L

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Then there’s no real freedom. And so no reason to appeal to man with the light of the gospel. Nor to instruct him to remain in that light once he’s experienced and embraced it. No real reason for the Bible at all for that matter. And yet the Bible exists for that very purpose, because man needs to know his choices- and so is filled with just such appeals and instructions from beginning to end.
You are viewing the gospel as law, which it is not. Law depends on free will. The gospel is an announcement that God saves all who believe what they hear. This is based on God first saving them so they can believe. Belief is a fruit of salvation, not a condition for people to meet in the flesh in order to save themselves.
 
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fhansen

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You are viewing the gospel as law, which it is not. Law depends on free will. The gospel is an announcement that God saves all who believe what they hear. This is based on God first saving them so they can believe. Belief is a fruit of salvation, not a condition for people to meet in the flesh in order to save themselves.
Faith is a gift of grace that establishes relationship with God, a gift that man can accept or reject. He cannot move himself towards God but he can nonetheless still refuse God’s calling and drawing. As we say “yes”, however, God indwells and begins a work in us. And to the extent that we remain in Him that work will blossom into eternal life.

Pretty simple-any other way of looking at it is to put the cart ahead of the horse. The obligation to be obedient and righteous remains with the New Covenant but God, now, fulfills that obligation, the law, in us. That’s to be “under grace”.
 
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Dave L

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Faith is a gift of grace that establishes relationship with God, a gift that man can accept or reject. He cannot move himself towards God but he can nonetheless still refuse God’s calling and drawing. As we say yes, however, God indwells and begins a work in us. And to the extent that we remain in Him that work will blossom into eternal life. Pretty simple-any other way of looking at it is to put the cart ahead of the horse. The obligation to be obedient and righteous remains with the New Covenant but God, now, fulfills that obligation, the law, in us. That’s to be “under grace”.
You cannot reject what you are. A born-again believer cannot stop being what they are any more than a dog can choose to be a cat. God saves people before the will ever comes into play.
 
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Faith is a gift of grace that establishes relationship with God, a gift that man can accept or reject.
At the moment man is confronted with this choice, is he a slave to sin or a a slave to righteousness?
 
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BBAS 64

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you are not stating what the Bible says, but using "philosophy" to explain the plain teachings of the Bible. ALL humans are born with "free will", which is the "ability" to do right and wrong, to accept or reject things, like the Gospel Message, as it says in places like Acts 13:46, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles". Here it was the Jews that rejected the Gospel for their salvation, and they, not God, considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. These are actions of self-will that there unregenerate Jews had the ability to carry out.


Good Day,

The unregenerate man who loves darkness and hates light will always choose the darkness he loves, and he does so freely.

"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit."

The regenerated man has a new heart given to Him by the work of God for his explicit purpose. He loves the light he once hated. That heart is the cause of action of the will and it acts freely.

The will of man is directly dependent, effected, and informed by the heart, so to that extent it is not free at all.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Hammster

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Without bothering with any possible qualifications, he’s a slave to sin at that point.
Then he cannot do anything righteous.
 
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fhansen

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Then he can not do anything righteous.
As I said, he cannot move himself towards God which would be the first step in his becoming justified, but he can still refuse to be moved, to turn to God in faith. And even after so turning, he can still turn back away. God wants the human will involved, which is why He's been patiently working on it ever since Eden.
 
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