Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Timtofly said:

Doug is more post trib than you.

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LOL. Do you enjoy saying ridiculous things that everyone else but you knows are not true?

You do not even define a trib to be post to.

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Yes, I do. I believe Satan's little season (Rev 20:7-9) is the time of spiritual tribulation that occurs before the second coming of Christ. I equate that with the time of increased wickedness in the world that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:10-13 and Paul mentions in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Douggg said:

Zechariah 14 is about Jesus's return to this earth, specifically to the Mt. of Olives from where he left in Acts 1. Them, the Jews there in Jerusalem, who Jesus's rescues are mortals. As well as them in nations, that Jesus rules over with a rod of iron.

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Why do you allow your interpretation of an Old Testament prophecy to overrule everything that the New Testament says will occur on the day Christ returns? The New Testament repeatedly teaches that all unbelievers will be killed at His return, so why don't you interpret Zechariah 14 in light of that instead of forcing the New Testament to agree with your interpretation of Zechariah 14?

As I have said to you before, Peter was using the Day of the Lord in a broad sense. Because it is broad, the Day of the Lord cannot be used as the timeline framework for the 7 year 70th week, and the conclusion of it, and the great tribulation, which Jesus returns to end.

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That is simply not true. You are trying to redefine the way Paul and Peter defined the day of the Lord and that is shameful.

Peter clearly said that in the last days prior to Christ's coming there would be scoffers questioning the promise of His coming because of the length of time it has been for Him to return (a long time to them, but not to God - 2 Peter 3:8-9). Peter then explains that these scoffers will pay the price for their wicked mocking of Christ's return when fire comes down upon the entire earth. That is the vengeance in flaming fire that Paul said will occur when Jesus appears from heaven (2 Thess 1:7-8).

It's no wonder that you don't accept what Peter clearly taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13. It's way too simple and straightforward to fit with your convoluted theories regarding events related to Christ's return.

Spiritual Jew said:

Why do you allow your interpretation of an Old Testament prophecy to overrule everything that the New Testament says will occur on the day Christ returns? The New Testament repeatedly teaches that all unbelievers will be killed at His return, so why don't you interpret Zechariah 14 in light of that instead of forcing the New Testament to agree with your interpretation of Zechariah 14?

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Did it ever occur to you that you are misunderstanding what it says in the New Testament regarding certain passages ?

sovereigngrace said:

You totally duck around every issue. This sums up Pretrib!

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I started a thread on Joel here (link)

Joel, the Valley of Jehosophat

The Day of the Lord is referred to in those verses.

Douggg said:

Did it ever occur to you that you are misunderstanding what it says in the New Testament regarding certain passages ?

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Did it ever occur to you that you are misunderstanding what it says in the New Testament regarding certain passages?

Douggg said:

Did it ever occur to you that you are misunderstanding what it says in the New Testament regarding certain passages ?

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No, not really.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, not really.

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Have you noticed with debating Pretrib: there is no hard evidence to rebut? It is a cobbled-together doctrine that has no basis in the Book.

Spiritual Jew said:

What in the world kind of response was this? Do you think a childish response like this helps your case at all?

He was only speaking of not having ascended there bodily yet. He didn't say that He didn't ascend there spiritually. He did and he took the spirit of the thief on the cross and many others with Him. You know He ascended there bodily after His resurrection, right? (Acts 1:9-11)? So, the context of Him saying He hadn't ascended to His Father yet was that He hadn't ascended there bodily yet.

Only his spirit, not his body (Luke 23:46). Is there some reason why you don't differentiate between the body, soul and spirit?

What exactly is keeping you from seeing that the following passage equates paradise with the third heaven besides doctrinal bias?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

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Jesus plainly told the thief, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE." He left the thief's soul there when He was resurrected. And hades isn't cast into the LOF til Jesus returns, so it'll be occupied til just before it's disposed of.

And we see plainly in Jesus' parable that paradise is an area of hades.

robycop3 said:

Jesus plainly told the thief, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE." He left the thief's soul there when He was resurrected. And hades isn't cast into the LOF til Jesus returns, so it'll be occupied til just before it's disposed of.

And we see plainly in Jesus' parable that paradise is an area of hades.

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...and that the bottomless pit is the great gulf separating the two sides, yes?

Luk16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

sovereigngrace said:

Have you noticed with debating Pretrib: there is no hard evidence to rebut? It is a cobbled-together doctrine that has no basis in the Book.

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PLENTY of evidence. God said He will keep the true Church from the "hour of trial",which'll be the great trib. And how better to do that than to "rapture" them, as the trib will be worldwide.

The MAIN object is, of course, leading others to Jesus.

robycop3 said:

PLENTY of evidence. God said He will keep the true Church from the "hour of trial",which'll be the great trib. And how better to do that than to "rapture" them, as the trib will be worldwide.

The MAIN object is, of course, leading others to Jesus.

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Zero evidence. Just rhetoric. That is Pretrib in a nutshell. You and other Pretribbers have ducked and dived around the rebuttal of this on this thread that forbids your interpretation. Like the rest of Scripture, this passage says the opposite to what Pretribbers claim. You (or no Pretrib) have anything to support a rapture of the Church followed by years of a trib followed by a 3rd coming. Pretrib has been absolutely decimated on this thread. There is no viable response.

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.

Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.

They need to see that the subject matter (namely the keeping) in Revelation 3:10 is reciprocal: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee.” Jesus was telling them: because the church in Philadelphia had been faithful, Christ was going to be faithful in return. He is basically promising to safeguard or watch over His faithful flock. This was an actual literal promise to an existing church 2,000 yrs ago. But Pretrib makes this promise totally irrelevant to the ones it was actually directed towards. They render it a worthless and baseless assurance.

robycop3 said:

Jesus plainly told the thief, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE." He left the thief's soul there when He was resurrected. And hades isn't cast into the LOF til Jesus returns, so it'll be occupied til just before it's disposed of.

And we see plainly in Jesus' parable that paradise is an area of hades.

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Why did did you duck around my detailed rebuttals of your false claims? Because you had to. You have nothing to support your position - only personal opinion.

sovereigngrace said:

They need to see that the subject matter (namely the keeping) in Revelation 3:10 is reciprocal: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee.” Jesus was telling them: because the church in Philadelphia had been faithful, Christ was going to be faithful in return. He is basically promising to safeguard or watch over His faithful flock. This was an actual literal promise to an existing church 2,000 yrs ago. But Pretrib makes this promise totally irrelevant to the ones it was actually directed towards. They render it a worthless and baseless assurance.

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You missed a few things of Revelation 3:10.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour represents a short time. And all the world is globally during the same short time.

Douggg said:

You missed a few things of Revelation 3:10.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour represents a short time. And all the world is globally during the same short time.

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Wrong again.

• Where is the Church (as the collective body of Christ) mentioned here?
• Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
• Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
• Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

sovereigngrace said:

You really do not get it. The elect are God's chose. Many are called but few are chosen. Universalism is heresy and banned on this forum.

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It is not universalism to say God so loved the whole world.

sovereigngrace said:

In Acts 10, God uses a vision of unclean food to help the apostle Peter see that in Christ there is no longer any spiritual distinction between Jew and Gentile. God now accepts both equally on the same terms into His kingdom.

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There was never a spiritual distinction between Jew and Gentile. Now who is claiming two people theology?

sovereigngrace said:

Have you noticed with debating Pretrib: there is no hard evidence to rebut? It is a cobbled-together doctrine that has no basis in the Book.

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Yes, I have definitely noticed that. It's much different than debating post-trib premils about the thousand years or debating preterists. At least they have some passages that seem, on the surface, to support their views. Pre-trib, on the other hand, is really out there and just pulls unrelated passages from scripture and tries to put them all together into one narrative. And then you end up with the convoluted mess as what we can see illustrated in Doug's charts.

robycop3 said:

Jesus plainly told the thief, "Today, you shall be with Me in PARADISE." He left the thief's soul there when He was resurrected. And hades isn't cast into the LOF til Jesus returns, so it'll be occupied til just before it's disposed of.

And we see plainly in Jesus' parable that paradise is an area of hades.

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2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So, even though Paul clearly equated paradise with the third heaven in this passage, you're just going to ignore that. I see.

BABerean2 said:

Are you now claiming nuclear fusion reactions are a deception?

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Humans have created a star?

robycop3 said:

PLENTY of evidence. God said He will keep the true Church from the "hour of trial",which'll be the great trib. And how better to do that than to "rapture" them, as the trib will be worldwide.

The MAIN object is, of course, leading others to Jesus.

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Why do you think that Jesus would say that He would take the church off of the earth to keep them from the hour of trials when in John 17:15 He prayed to the Father that He would not take His followers out of the world, but to instead protect them from evil while in the world? That makes no sense. You need to drop Revelation 3:10 from your list of verses that you think support a pre-trib rapture because it does not support it whatsoever.

You also ignore the context that Jesus was speaking specifically to the first century church of Philadelphia in the old province of Asia there as well.