Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Spiritual Jew said:

So, what do you call the following then: Should we call this pre-great trib?

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You are partial quoting me. The chart I provided gives the timing window as being from today to the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist. I made some notes on the chart for you.

I have already selected a name for my rapture timing view as the anytime rapture view, borrowing from Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Spiritual Jew said:

How did you come to believe the ridiculous things that you believe such as what you said here that "stars are not reality", and your belief that the earth is flat, and your belief that angels are physical beings? Do you come up with these things all on your own or were you taught these things?

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When our knowledge contradicts God's Word, it is our knowledge that is wrong. If you hear enough of just the world talking, you can tell what part of the world and thus Satan's influence is in theology on the terms some use to describe God's Word that is not found in God's Word. That is why I try to limit using such terms. Interacting with humanity on the whole is what teaches us. Then we have to separate what God's Word actually says. All of us does that to a certain extent, in our own brains. We hear teachers or "authority" on a topic and our brain may store that totally different than what we heard.

Take the early church father Augustine of Hippo. He was raised pagan and only understood paganism, then he met Christians and read the Bible. Contrast that with a person who was raised in a Christian environment and later became an agnostic atheist, and they both are theologians. I would say they both view God the same, but started at opposite extremes. Neither would be similar to one who only knew the Bible and filtered out everything non biblical, out of their mind, constantly, never having a pagan or atheistic mindset.

Yet we see normal everyday people talking about ideas that can only come from God, but those people, themselves, do not even realize it. So some end up thinking like a Christian would, because what they heard and were taught ended up in their brain that way. When introduced to Christianity, they already had a thought relationship, that they never even realized was there, until it clicked the first time they did hear God's Word. That is what being sealed by the Holy Spirit entails. Not that the brain was preprogrammed to turn out that way, but just how all brains work naturally. Not that I am trying to teach some psychology. It is just how the brain works, and why many forced to be Christian in their childhood, rebelled upon leaving "the nest".

What I know comes from life and being in the right place at the right time. The best example of that would be Joseph, the beloved son of Israel. I am not near close to being a Joseph, but I can relate. I can relate to Timothy

"and recalling too how from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which can give you the wisdom that leads to deliverance through trusting in Yeshua the Messiah."

"When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and in thy mother Eunice, and am assured that it dwelleth in thee also."

He was taught by his mother and grandmother by example and word. Everything after my youth was filtered through almost the exact experience. Yes I have experienced a college level education. I have read many books on almost every topic imaginable. Pinning my knowledge to one single source other than the Bible is impossible. And no, I cannot recall every single word in the Bible and where it is located. And no, I do not have a cut and paste "library". My post are what is in my mind at that moment, and more than likely forgotten minutes later.

sovereigngrace said:

You need to check out the NT. The Greek word from which we get our word “elect” is eklektos. It is a participle of the verb eklegomai, which can be used as a noun (i.e. elect) or as an adjective that means “picked out” or “chosen.” Whatever way the theologians may try to water-down this word, it carries a strong meaning in the original Greek. Those who are chosen of God have been specially picked to fulfil a divine purpose.

Paul testifies as a Christian in Titus 1:1: “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect [Gr. eklektos], and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.”

The elect are God’s chosen people – regardless of birthday, nationality or social standing. Paul here portrays God’s elect as a people of “faith” and “truth.” God’s people possess saving faith. They live by faith. They are the household of faith. They are a believing community. They have been wonderfully changed by receiving God’s truth. They love Christ and have had their sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus. The redeemed of God are therefore the elect of God. God’s chosen people are Christians. Election is open to every ethnicity by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Those who reject Christ can never own the title of God’s elect.

1 Peter 1:1-2 succinctly defines the elect: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered … Elect [Gr. eklektos] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.”

Election is shown here to involve spiritual redemptive work. It embodies spiritual regeneration. The elect are the household of faith. They are all those who have put their trust in Jesus Christ. Those, alone, are the recipients of His electing power and have entered into an intimate relationship with God. They are His children. They are the sheep of His pasture. They are the apple of His eye. They have embraced the Messiah Christ and have had their sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus.

Paul the apostle admonishes Christians in Colossians 3:12: “Put on therefore, as the elect [Gr. eklektos] of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.”

Speaking to the Christian church at Colossae, Paul reminds them of the spiritual qualities that epitomize the elect of God.

Jesus tells us that He is coming for His chosen people when He returns. He is going to rescue them form this world before pouring out His wrath. He promises in Mark 13:24-27: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

This truth is repeated in Matthew 24:31. Christ is coming for His chosen people – the redeemed Church, not a nation that hates Him, as Dispensationalists false claim. He is coming for those who are ready and waiting. This truth is repeated throughout the New Testament.

God’s relationship with man has always involved certain standard elements throughout Scripture (both Old Testament and New Testament). There has always been:

1. The revelation of God (or the covenant maker).
2. His affirmation to man of a personal intimate relationship with Him (or the covenant contract).
3. The spiritual doorway into covenant relationship.
4. The fruit of covenant participation (or man’s covenant responsibility) – a holy lifestyle.

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THANK GOD this applies to every human born of Adam's flesh and blood. You put it so well, now if your theology would just apply it, as well as you posted it. It is not limited because of sin and the sin nature.

Spiritual Jew said:

This is in stark contrast to dispensationalists who turn the elect into who they want them to be (all Jews, believers and unbelievers alike) because of doctrinal bias rather than accepting who scripture actually says they are.

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So God in longsuffering applied His choice of Atonement to the whole world is a theology bias? Well the theology that came out of the Reformation was biased and only applied this "elect" as only those who believe as they do. How is that not bias, and God is biased?

God is not biased, because God is no respector of persons. And God chose the whole world as elect, because God is no respector of individual belief. In order to be elect, one has to choose for himself as well. That is two votes in favor, and Satan's 1 vote in opposition.

Call them dispies, is twisting a theology into making a big deal of who the elect even are. Dispensationalists are not generally universalist. Are you confused in your accusation? There are some humans who are chosen, even above the elect, and may or may not be in the church. You do not get to stick with limited elect, and then get mad because God disagrees with your choice of who is elect or not. Yes the church is elect, and those in the church elected to be in the elect. See how easy this is? No where does it say concerning the church, they are forced to be the church, without any say in the matter.

Especially if you do not even accept OSAS. OSAS do not accept a person actually voted for themselves. They never made up their mind. The only thing true about NOSAS, is a human can change their mind and reject God. That is when God still has 1 vote in their favor, they are elect, but their own vote cast with Satan's vote, gave Satan and Death the election win. It is that simple. Neither Satan nor God can force humans to choose one way or the other. Election still works and God still chooses some by pointing out God’s way is the best way. Even those who are impatient and think God should do stuff or kill people by the masses in a nano-second.

Spiritual Jew said:

The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection and we all have had part in it by being raised spiritually with Him.

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Because the spiritual part deals with the Second birth and the second death, only the physical body is the first birth and the first death, and thus the first resurrection. It is a type not a when.

The spirit is not dead, but you keep insisting it has to do with the Atonement. It does not. The spirit is with God up until a person rejects God to the point of reprobation. Then the spirit is spiritually dead. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. The first resurrection is physical of the flesh, the literal body. That is the only resurrection the church is currently in.

We (alive and remain) are still Hebrews 11 people in the flesh on the earth. Even in Paradise they do not have their spirit, because that only happens at the Second Coming. All in Christ in Paradise have the first resurrection bodies, but you all are fixated on one verse of Paul that does not mean what you all think it means. The Revelation 20:4 Resurrection is a first, flesh, body resurrection. Those people live on the earth and are not part of the church in Paradise. They do not experience the second death nor second resurrection of the spirit, evidently. They may or may not ever, but that is none of our business to know until after the NHNE. We are not told the whole story of the 144k, so any one who thinks they do know, just made what they think they know up, and is only guessing. To spiritualize an event after the church is completed and whole, is man made.

Davy said:

Still on that old Jewish tradition we see. Faith on Christ Jesus and The New Testament Witness is supposed to get rid of that old false Jewish belief that the dead are still in the casket with their flesh bodies.

When Jesus was on His cross, and the malefactor crucified with Him believed on Him, Jesus told him that he would be with Him that day in Paradise. Our spirit/soul is not literally 'asleep' in the ground waiting for Christ's coming, for the asleep idea is but an expression.

Why is 'asleep' for those who have died in Christ a proper expression for those? Simple, it's because those in Christ are NOT really 'dead', and are not subject to the "second death" of perishing in the lake of fire. Death of our flesh body is not the death of our spirit with soul (Matthew 10:28).

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I agree with the term sleep, but Lazarus went to Heaven in body, and not back to Abraham's bosom in physical death. He could only die once and be resurrected once. That is the first resurrection. It cannot happen twice. It is only appointed to die once.

What you fail to see is the first resurrection is bodily, and the soul goes from a tent to a permanent building instantly, because all in Christ have the first resurrection. Even us, we have just not exercised the point, because it is a one way experience. It cannot be reversed, like one cannot re-enter their mother's womb.

sovereigngrace said:

Romans 8:33-34 confirms: "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

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So why are you condemning people born of Jacob? You are not God. You do not get to choose.

sovereigngrace said:

The Dispy fixation with natural Israel is exposed on this subject, as well as ten thousand others in Holy Writ. The doctrine butchers the people of God up and cobbles up the inspired pages in an erroneous manner. It should therefore be strongly resisted by all Bible-believing Christians.

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This sounds like a Sadducee getting on the case of a Pharisee and their doctrinal stance. I think they sided with Satan that God should just come and destroy the world and be done with the whole mess. But God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

Notice it does not say, that the chosen, should come to repentance, but the all. Indeed the church today needs to repent even more so than the lost. Some are more concerned about the letter of the Law, that just kills...

Spiritual Jew said:

Jesus said this to counter the Sadducees false belief that people ceased to exist (body, soul and spirit instead of just the body) when they died. He showed that though they were physically dead, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive (their souls and spirits).

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You added the soul and spirit part, because the verse would contradict you. Their body is dead, but that is not the point you are making, because the Cross had not happened yet to change things drastically for both views of the Pharisees and Sadducees. You do not have to point out what is dead or living.

To apply this point, the only thing raised is the body, because it was the only dead thing. That is the only thing this verse can prove, that the first resurrection is a type and not a when. You adding that the spirit and soul cannot die, points out only the body can be resurrected in the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is not spiritual because it cannot apply to the soul or spirit. Changing location from Abraham's bosom to Paradise is from one physical location to another physical location. Because the resurrection gave them a body, and their soul and spirit remained unchanged. That is why Matthew said many bodies were seen, not souls, nor spirits. The soul was not seen, because it had a body wrapped around it. The spirit was not seen, because it was not wrapped around the body like a robe of white. So the first resurrection does not include the restoration of one's spirit to one's body. This is only seen in the 5th Seal immediately prior to the 6th Seal.

You can argue that the soul in the 5th Seal needed both body and spirit, or assume the robe can only go around the body already there.

Timtofly said:

So why are you condemning people born of Jacob? You are not God. You do not get to choose.

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Because the Northern tribes were carried into captivity hundreds of years before the time of Christ and their DNA became mixed with those of the surrounding nations, almost anyone whose ancestors came from Europe or parts of Asia are direct descendants of Jacob.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1.
In Titus 3:9 Paul reveals the truth about all other genealogies.


See the link below for the DNA evidence of the facts above.
Irish People Take A DNA Test - YouTube


.

Timtofly said:

THANK GOD this applies to every human born of Adam's flesh and blood. You put it so well, now if your theology would just apply it, as well as you posted it. It is not limited because of sin and the sin nature.

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You really do not get it. The elect are God's chose. Many are called but few are chosen. Universalism is heresy and banned on this forum.

Timtofly said:

So why are you condemning people born of Jacob? You are not God. You do not get to choose.

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What are you talking about? Who is condemning people born of Jacob?

sovereigngrace said:

What are you talking about? Who is condemning people born of Jacob?

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I think some people think of us Amils as being anti-Semite just because we don't favor Christ-rejecting Jews. We believe Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one through His blood. We believe that Christ made a way for all Jews to be saved through His blood. How that is a case of us condemning them, I don't know.

Douggg said:

You are partial quoting me. The chart I provided gives the timing window as being from today to the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist. I made some notes on the chart for you.

I have already selected a name for my rapture timing view as the anytime rapture view, borrowing from Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

View attachment 290203

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You are fighting with Scripture again. And your chart is messed up - big time. No one survives the day of the Lord (the one and only coming of Christ). Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

This fiery day of complete destruction is an impending day (“it is nigh at hand”) that will evidently destroy this planet. The appearance of Christ will leaven nothing of corruption standing. Joel 2:4-5 continues, “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

His face manifests the shikinah of God. Whilst the Premillennialist accepts that the earth flees from His glory at the end of Satan’s little season it negates that reality at His second coming. Is His glory any different? Why didn't the heavens and the earth flee from His face then? After all, the brightness of His coming should hardly be diminished at any time. Scripture would see to locate the fulfilment of Revelation 20:11 at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They do not!

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
• These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
• The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.
• It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
• What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

sovereigngrace said:

You are fighting with Scripture again. And your chart is messed up - big time. No one survives the day of the Lord (the one and only coming of Christ).Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

This fiery day of complete destruction is an impending day (“it is nigh at hand”) that will evidently destroy this planet. The appearance of Christ will leaven nothing of corruption standing. Joel 2:4-5 continues, “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

His face manifests the shikinah of God. Whilst the Premillennialist accepts that the earth flees from His glory at the end of Satan’s little season it negates that reality at His second coming. Is His glory any different? Why didn't the heavens and the earth flee from His face then? After all, the brightness of His coming should hardly be diminished at any time. Scripture would see to locate the fulfilment of Revelation 20:11 at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They do not!

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
• These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
• The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.
• It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
• What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

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At Jesus's return in Zechariah 14...

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Spiritual Jew said:

I think some people think of us Amils as being anti-Semite just because we don't favor Christ-rejecting Jews. We believe Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one through His blood. We believe that Christ made a way for all Jews to be saved through His blood. How that is a case of us condemning them, I don't know.

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Exactly. They know perfectly well what we believe. They just do it to antagonize or muddy the waters. They are fighting with the Holy Scriptures. In Acts 10, God uses a vision of unclean food to help the apostle Peter see that in Christ there is no longer any spiritual distinction between Jew and Gentile. God now accepts both equally on the same terms into His kingdom. Peter responds to this great monumental revelation in Acts 10:34-36: “I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).”

The word interpreted “respecter” in the King James Version is the Greek word prosopoleptes which simply means: one exhibiting partiality. In fact, the New King James Version renders this, “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

The Revised Standard Version states: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” The New Living Translation: “I see very clearly that God doesn't show partiality. In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right.” Today’s English Version similarly states, “I now realize that it is true that God treats everyone on the same basis. Whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what race he belongs to.” New International Version states: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.”

This passage is crystal clear in its meaning and explanation of how God views all nations, peoples and tribes equally today. The reading makes it clear: God is no respecter of persons. This is not strange or outlandish; it is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to embrace all nations. This means that God doesn’t accept anyone based on their nationality, color or status but rather on whether or not they fear Him. When it comes to salvation he looks at the inward rather than the outward. Those that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.” He has made all nations, tribes and kindreds the focus of His favor today. It is wrong to elevate one nation over another.

Douggg said:

At Jesus's return in Zechariah 14...

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.






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Again, you avoid every single Scripture i presented and every point. That is your MO. Your fight is with the Book. Your theology is extra-biblical. I refer you back to another avoided post. There are many on this thread alone.

That is Pretrib. It cannot deal with the facts, the evidence, the truth.

sovereigngrace said:

Again, you avoid every single Scripture i presented and every point. That is your MO. Your fight is with the Book. Your theology is extra-biblical. I refer you back to another avoided post. There are many on this thread alone.

That is Pretrib. It cannot deal with the facts, the evidence, the truth.

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Given your previous post, it appears that you have a lot of work to do in your eschatology.

Douggg said:

At Jesus's return in Zechariah 14...

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.






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Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

There are strong grounds for relating this to the great victory that was wrought through Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. In keeping with the consistent pattern of the book of Zechariah this would seem to be a first Advent passage. It describes the benefits or “spoil” of which He “divided in the midst” of His Church. Christ rescued many from the firm grip of Satan. The devil was stripped of his influence in the lives of millions of sinners. The spoil in Scripture normally referred to the trophies or reward of victory. This must surely refer to the elect that Christ secured through His comprehensive earthly mission.

1 Chronicles 26:27 tells us: “Out of the spoils won in battles did they dedicate to maintain the house of the LORD.”

Are we not the Lord’s spoil from the enemy’s territory? Whilst the Old Testament temple was literal and physical and was so suitably adorned after battle, the New Testament temple is living and spiritual. We are now the spoil of battle – taken from the devil’s dark domain through the shed blood of Jesus at the cross.

Isaiah 53:10-12 confirms this is speaking of Calvary, when he prophesied of Christ’s first Advent and especially Calvary, “it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Here we have further confirmation linking the securing of the spoil with the accomplishment of His redemptive work. His redeeming of the elect is presented here as evidence that He had divided the spoil. It reads: “he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death.”

Isaiah 9:2-6 says of the Gospel going out during the intra-Advent period, and the authority and blessings that now is now bestowed in Gentiles through the victory wrought at Cavalry: “The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting father, the prince of peace.”

The spiritual light enveloping the darkened Gentiles through the earthly ministry Of Christ is here associated with the dividing of the spoil. This would seem to support the idea that the spoil is those who were being liberated from the enemy’s prison. Countless devotees of Satan would be released through the victorious advance of the Gospel through the once-deceived nations (ethnos).

Christ confirms the meaning of these Old Testament prophecies in Luke 11, when He alludes to Zechariah 14, whilst speaking of His own assault upon Satan and his dark kingdom. Jesus said, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man (Satan) armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him (namely Jesus), he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).

This is speaking of Christ’s victory over Satan through His victorious life, death and resurrection and the great “spoil” which He “divided in the midst” of His Church. Christ’ earthly ministry and the introduction of the kingdom of heaven on earth began heaven’s great assault upon Satan and his kingdom. This short period saw the spoiling of the devil’s goods and the disarming of devil’s enormous remit of influence. At every point Satan was decisively defeated on his own territory. The victory was finally secured with Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. This opened up the Gospel opportunity to the Gentiles. Jesus also said in Mark 3:27 “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Calvary was the place where Satan was bound. This resulted in the spoiling of his goods, the liberating of the prisoner and the enlightenment of the darkened nations. The territory that Satan once exclusively controlled has now been massively invaded by the Lord's subjects and His Kingdom. Those that were once in total darkness can now see. Every enemy of heaven has been finally and completely defeated. All we are therefore waiting for is for the final put down. This occurs at the second coming. Colossians 2:14 explains how Calvary saw the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The phrase having spoiled is taken from the Greek word apekduomai meaning divested or disarmed. Christ disarmed the demonic realm during His ministry and particularly through the finished work of the Cross. Since Calvary, Satan’s kingdom has been restricted from their previous unchallenged global control – Christ “triumphing over them in it.” New King James Version renders it, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.” Satan was exposed time after time as Christ and His disciples defeated the minions of hell with the authority of heaven. The Gospel was now free to invade the once-darkened Gentile nations. Not that every single Gentile would believe, but that the nations would now be free to receive the Gospel.

Douggg said:

Given your previous post, it appears that you have a lot of work to do in your eschatology.

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The bottom line is: you have no answer to the truth. You habitually duck and dive around it. The observer can see that. But the fact is: it is impossible to fight truth. Pretribbers have nothing to bring to the table on this thread but insults and fanciful charts that contradict Scripture. The reality is: when Jesus comes that is it.