How can We Know if We Know Him?

How do we know if we know him?

  • By remaining in him, and not sinning.

    Votes: 8 57.1%
  • There is another way.

    Votes: 6 42.9%

  • Total voters
    14

Guojing

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How is it that you can get James' writings so wrong? James is saying that we must have faith that works. If our faith doesn't change our lives it's not faith at all. It's presumption that desires to claim the blessings of God without having the love and respect for God that He being God is required of us.

As far as I'm concerned faith is a verb, not a noun, for it is a word that implies action. Read Hebrews 11 for verification of that.

He already agreed he believed salvation is faith and works.

For you, you are doing what I would call "back-loading works into the gospel", while he is doing "front-loading".

But either way, both of you believed that works are also required. He is just being more up-front about it than you.
 
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Guojing

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Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel... not two. It flat out condemns the two-gospel model saying that if an Apostle or an Angel from heaven were to appear claiming to have another gospel "let him be accursed". A bible teaching about the clear Bible fact that there is only one gospel -- that most people would gladly embrace.

It forms "the context" for what comes next including Gal 2 and Gal 3 where we find Gal 3:8 that the one and only Gospel was preached to Abraham.

Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised

Gal 2 is not claiming "two different Gospels" it is proclaiming the "one and only gospel" to two different groups.

You are willing to discuss what went down in Acts 21:20-25, to understand what Peter James and John agreed with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9?
 
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BobRyan

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Every time I bring in Galatians 2:7-9, people are always replying with Galatians 1:8-9, and whenever I point out what happened in Acts 21:20-25 in reply, they go silent.

Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel... not two. It flat out condemns the two-gospel model saying that if an Apostle or an Angel from heaven were to appear claiming to have another gospel "let him be accursed". A bible teaching about the clear Bible fact that there is only one gospel -- that most people would gladly embrace.

It forms "the context" for what comes next including Gal 2 and Gal 3 where we find Gal 3:8 that the one and only Gospel was preached to Abraham.

Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised

Gal 2 is not claiming "two different Gospels" it is proclaiming the "one and only gospel" to two different groups.

You are willing to discuss what went down in Acts 21:20-25, to understand what Peter James and John agreed with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9?

I am always willing to look at scripture in context. Gal 1 is the first-order "context" for Gal 2 and Gal 3:8 demonstrates that point.

Acts 21:20-26 sure..

20 And when they heard about them, they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law. 25 But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we sent a letter, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took along the men, and the next day, after purifying himself together with them, he went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Acts 15
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

24 Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have confused you by their teaching, upsetting your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore, we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from acts of sexual immorality; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

And of course "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 "Honor your father and mother" - in that still valid unit of Ten

Acts 16
Now Paul also came to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brothers and sisters who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to leave with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
 
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Guojing

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Acts 21:20-26 sure..

20 And when they heard about them, they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law. 25 But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we sent a letter, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took along the men, and the next day, after purifying himself together with them, he went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

The simple point I was making, with Acts 21:20-25, is that Peter, James and John continued to preach physical circumcision and the necessity of keeping the Law to the Jews who believed.

While they allow Paul to preach to the gentiles that they could believe the gospel without having to keep the Law.

That is in line with what Galatians 2:7-9 established. Paul did not go around and preach to the 3 pillars that they are "cursed" for preaching another gospel.
 
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BobRyan

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The simple point I was making, with Acts 21:20-25, is that Peter, James and John continued to preach physical circumcision and the necessity of keeping the Law to the Jews who believed.

No doubt.

And as Acts 21 points out - the Gospel is not about telling Jews not to be circumcised.

Still as we see in 1 Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts ceremonial law with moral law.

While they allow Paul to preach to the gentiles that they could believe the gospel without having to keep the Law.

Specifically the ceremonial law - because as in the case of Acts 15:1 - that law regarding circumcision was not given to gentiles - not even in the OT.

In Eph 6:1-2 Paul reminds gentiles that "honor your father and mother" is the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit-of-ten ... the Law written on the heart in Jer 31:31-34 includes the moral law of God written on stone in Ex 20.

So then - even gentiles should not "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

That is in line with what Galatians 2:7-9 established. Paul did not go around and preach to the 3 pillars that they are "cursed" for preaching another gospel.

True. Because they weren't preaching another Gospel
 
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Guojing

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True. Because they weren't preaching another Gospel

You do agree they were still preaching that Jews who believed still need to be "zealous for the Law", including circumcising their kids correct?

They could not be preaching Galatians 5:2 to the Jews.
 
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BobRyan

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You do agree they were still preaching that Jews who believed still need to be "zealous for the Law", including circumcising their kids correct?

They could not be preaching Galatians 5:2 to the Jews.

Paul had Timothy circumcised in Acts 16:1-4 -

The church of Galatia was a gentile church not a Jewish one.

Gal 2
3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 Yet it was a concern because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy on our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us. 5 But we did not yield in subjection to them, even for an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

So then the man-made idea that gentiles needed to be circumcised was not something commanded in the Bible and not something that any of the main leaders in the Acts 21 Jerusalem church agreed with.

But in Acts 15 they point that "certain men from us" went out and started teaching that idea - it was a Christian-Jewish idea that came up in the NT age. It was not a teaching of non-Christian Jews as we see in places like Acts 13 and Eph 2.
 
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Guojing

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Paul had Timothy circumcised in Acts 16:1-4 -

The church of Galatia was a gentile church not a Jewish one.

Gal 2
3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 Yet it was a concern because of the false brothers secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy on our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us. 5 But we did not yield in subjection to them, even for an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

So then the man-made idea that gentiles needed to be circumcised was not something commanded in the Bible and not something that any of the main leaders in the Acts 21 Jerusalem church agreed with.

But in Acts 15 they point that "certain men from us" went out and started teaching that idea - it was a Christian-Jewish idea that came up in the NT age. It was not a teaching of non-Christian Jews as we see in places like Acts 13 and Eph 2.

So is your answer a yes, or a no?

Do you agree that they were still preaching that Jews who believed still need to be "zealous for the Law", including circumcising their kids?

I agree with you the church in Galatia was a gentile church. That was my point to the others here, that Galatians 1:8-9 is a curse for those who try to teach the gentiles that circumcision is necessary for their salvation.
 
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BobRyan

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So is your answer a yes, or a no?

Do you agree that they were still preaching that Jews who believed still need to be "zealous for the Law", including circumcising their kids?

They never preached against it.

I agree with you the church in Galatia was a gentile church. That was my point to the others here, that Galatians 1:8-9 is a curse for those who try to teach the gentiles that circumcision is necessary for their salvation.

And you are correct.
 
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Guojing

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They never preached against it.



And you are correct.

So if they preach the gospel that Jews who believed need to keep to circumcision and Law of Moses zealously,

While Paul preach the gospel to the gentiles that if they circumcise their kids, Christ would be of no effect, Galatians 5:2, and that gentiles are "dead to the Law" (Romans 7:4)

Do you want to really claim that both gospels are the same message?
 
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BobRyan

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So if they preach the gospel that Jews who believed need to keep to circumcision and Law of Moses zealously,

While Paul preach the gospel to the gentiles that if they circumcise their kids, Christ would be of no effect, Galatians 5:2, and that gentiles are "dead to the Law" (Romans 7:4)

Do you want to really claim that both gospels are the same message?

The "Good news" was about Christ paying for our sins and as Paul points out in Hebrews 7, and 10 all the ceremonial laws dealing with animal sacrifice and offerings ended at the cross along with the priesthood. That alone was a big change for Jews that became Christian.

Paul says this in 1 Cor 7
17 But as the Lord hath distributed to every one, as God hath called every one, so let him walk: and so in all churches I teach.
18 Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing: but what matters is keeping the commandments of God.

It is not a "gospel of circumcision" other than the one you find in Romans 2


Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

There are no OT commands about gentiles being circumcised and nothing in the NT calling for that. And nothing in the NT says it is wrong for Jews to be circumcised - not even Timothy where his father is a gentile -- Paul does not instruct that he be circumcised "because of scripture" but "because of the Jews" - -it would be a problem for Timothy as an evangelist with a Jewish mother if he were not circumcised.
 
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HARK!

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Holding groups of individuals to differing standards is a moral issue. It is completely unfair and unjust to tell one group one thing and another group another as to what is required of them to enter heaven. Thus, because your theology requires God to be unjust and unfair it is an attack on God's character, His morality. I can not accept what you preach because I love God. He is my friend, and has always treated me justly and mercifully. I resent attacks on my friends, and especially on God, after all He has done for me. And especially because He loved me while I was still His enemy.

Agreed.

(CLV) Ro 2:11
For there is not partiality with God,
 
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Gary K

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My question is simple, do you agree that God did change in what he required of man across time?

Was there a time he required physical circumcision? (Genesis 17:14)

Is physical circumcision not required now? (Galatians 5:2)

That is not circular reasoning, and I am not reading into scripture there.
It would be a really good thing if you would acknowledge what is said to you. Your entire theology hangs on whether or not God is unjust.

(1) Of course God has said that man could eat meat after the flood. But then again He gave instructions as to which meat man could eat. Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean before the flood. God clearly demonstrated that by the numbers of each clean and each unclean type of animal He brought into the ark. That is not unjust because God applied that to all men, not just to one group and not another group at the same time.

(2) Of course there was a time when circumcision was required. But then again it was required of all of God's people. If a Gentile/stranger was to join themselves to God's people they were required to be circumcised. Therefore it was something applied to all men, not something applied to one group and not another at the same time.

(3)No, physical circumcision is not now required. But heart circumcision is required just as it was in the days of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. But, once again, this is universal to all men. It is not a differing standard to one group and not another at the same time.

Your arguments are pure fallacy.
 
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Guojing

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It would be a really good thing if you would acknowledge what is said to you. Your entire theology hangs on whether or not God is unjust.

(1) Of course God has said that man could eat meat after the flood. But then again He gave instructions as to which meat man could eat. Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean before the flood. God clearly demonstrated that by the numbers of each clean and each unclean type of animal He brought into the ark. That is not unjust because God applied that to all men, not just to one group and not another group at the same time.

(2) Of course there was a time when circumcision was required. But then again it was required of all of God's people. If a Gentile/stranger was to join themselves to God's people they were required to be circumcised. Therefore it was something applied to all men, not something applied to one group and not another at the same time.

(3)No, physical circumcision is not now required. But heart circumcision is required just as it was in the days of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. But, once again, this is universal to all men. It is not a differing standard to one group and not another at the same time.

Your arguments are pure fallacy.

alright then, so you do agree that God did change across time, instructions do vary at different times.

that is good enough
 
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Gary K

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alright then, so you do agree that God did change across time, instructions do vary at different times.

that is good enough

But that is not what your theology is based upon. Your theology is based upon God requiring different standards of behavior from the Jews than He does from Gentiles at the same time. That is a moral issue because it is unjust. And it is patently false for God has always required the same things from both Jew and Gentile in both the Old and New Testaments. There never was a time in earth's history where God has told the Jews/Isrealites one thing and not required the same of the Gentiles if they wanted to join themselves to the Jews/Israelites. God is no respecter of persons.
 
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Guojing

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But that is not what your theology is based upon. Your theology is based upon God requiring different standards of behavior from the Jews than He does from Gentiles at the same time. That is a moral issue because it is unjust. And it is patently false for God has always required the same things from both Jew and Gentile in both the Old and New Testaments. There never was a time in earth's history where God has told the Jews/Isrealites one thing and not required the same of the Gentiles if they wanted to join themselves to the Jews/Israelites. God is no respecter of persons.

No, it was the same.

But we have the advantage of being born 2000 years after those events, when we could look back in retrospect and realized that the change occurred at a certain point in time.

As the saying goes, everyone is a good stock trader, on hindsight.

So in the middle of Acts, at Acts 15, James, Cephas and John could not have realized at that time, that God has changed in his requirements for man to approach him.

The wise approach they made, during that transition period then, was to allow gentiles to approach him without circumcision, without the Law, but Jews who believed need to keep the Law still, as the events in Acts 21:20-25 indicated.
 
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Guojing

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So then the man-made idea that gentiles needed to be circumcised was not something commanded in the Bible and not something that any of the main leaders in the Acts 21 Jerusalem church agreed with.

It was in the OT Exodus 12:48

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Acts 15:1 is a repeat of that passage.
 
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Gary K

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No, it was the same.

But we have the advantage of being born 2000 years after those events, when we could look back in retrospect and realized that the change occurred at a certain point in time.

As the saying goes, everyone is a good stock trader, on hindsight.

So in the middle of Acts, at Acts 15, James, Cephas and John could not have realized at that time, that God has changed in his requirements for man to approach him.

The wise approach they made, during that transition period then, was to allow gentiles to approach him without circumcision, without the Law, but Jews who believed need to keep the Law still, as the events in Acts 21:20-25 indicated.

1Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Luke 10:25 ¶And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 ¶Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

Jeremiah 31:31 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:*n7
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

2Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

What does the Holy Spirit write in the fleshly tables of our hearts? The law of the sacrificial system. The laws on circumcision? Or the perfect moral law of God, the 10 commandments that when when written in the heart by the Spirit breaks no law? You know, the fruit of the Spirit.

Circumcision or uncircumcision means nothing. Only the keeping of the moral law of God. And what is the fruit of the flesh? Paul tells us in Galatians 5. The breaking of the moral law of God. You can be circumcised in the flesh and practice the fruits of the flesh. But we cannot be born again, have our hearts circumcised by God, and produce the fruits of the flesh for our hearts have been changed and we love God with all our hearts, all of our strength, and our neighbors as ourselves. We practice the Golden Rule upon which hangs all the law and the prophets. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit.

What was the covenant made at Sinai? What is the new covenant? What's the difference between the two? Which applies to Jews? Which to Gentiles?
 
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Guojing

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What does the Holy Spirit write in the fleshly tables of our hearts? The law of the sacrificial system. The laws on circumcision? Or the perfect moral law of God, the 10 commandments that when when written in the heart by the Spirit breaks no law? You know, the fruit of the Spirit.

Circumcision or uncircumcision means nothing. Only the keeping of the moral law of God. And what is the fruit of the flesh? Paul tells us in Galatians 5. The breaking of the moral law of God. You can be circumcised in the flesh and practice the fruits of the flesh. But we cannot be born again, have our hearts circumcised by God, and produce the fruits of the flesh for our hearts have been changed and we love God with all our hearts, all of our strength, and our neighbors as ourselves. We practice the Golden Rule upon which hangs all the law and the prophets. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit.

What was the covenant made at Sinai? What is the new covenant? What's the difference between the two? Which applies to Jews? Which to Gentiles?

Both covenants are/will be made with Israel.

One has laws for Israel to keep but does not enable them to keep, the other has both.
 
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Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
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He already agreed he believed salvation is faith and works.

For you, you are doing what I would call "back-loading works into the gospel", while he is doing "front-loading".

But either way, both of you believed that works are also required. He is just being more up-front about it than you.

Absolutely works are required for they are the fruit of a good tree. They are the fruit of new heart. They are the fruit of being born again. They are the fruit of the circumcised heart. They are the fruit of the new creature. Anyone who says works are not required doesn't understand what it is to be born again.

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Has the Son of God destroyed the works of the devil in your life? Do you even believe it's possible? Jesus was born to save us from our sins, not in our sins.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Remember, if we break one commandment we have broken them all. So no commandment breakers will survive the lake of fire.

Revelation 21: [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/sword:///Revelation of John 21:10']10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11
Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;[/URL]
.....
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
 
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