Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Spiritual Jew said:

You believe in a future tribulation period, do you not? Do you believe in a 3.5 year tribulation period instead of a 7 year tribulation period? If so, do you believe that the church must be caught up to meet the Lord before that tribulation period begins?

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I believe there will be a great tribulation timeframe of 1335 days, triggered by the placing of the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast on the temple grounds.

The rapture must take place before then and before the transgression of desolation act (Daniel 8:11-13) by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:3-4 of him stopping the daily sacrifice going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

All of that information is on my detailed chart of events for the 7 years. You are supposed to be taking all of the end time events and fitting them into the basic Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the 7 years.

Douggg said:

I believe there will be a great tribulation timeframe of 1335 days, triggered by the placing of the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast on the temple grounds.

The rapture must take place before then and before the transgression of desolation act (Daniel 8:11-13) by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:3-4 of him stopping the daily sacrifice going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

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Anyone who reads the above would have a difficult time understanding your claim of an "anytime rapture".

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Douggg said:

I would just like to see your chart of the post-trib timing window for the rapture.

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I don't have any charts and I never will. Haven't I made it clear already that I don't care about charts? Have I not told you multiple times already that scripture is all words and no charts and therefore our interpretations of it do not require charts as well?

Is there anything about my view that you'd like me to clarify? You know I believe the thousand years is not literal and represents the New Testament era up until Satan's little season, right? As Revelation 1:5-6 makes clear, Christ reigns now and we are priests of God and Christ now, which explains what Revelation 20:6 is talking about. When believers die, they don't stop being priests of God and of Christ when their souls go to heaven. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32).

And you know that I, as an amillennialist, believe Christ returns after Satan's little season, so I see Rev 20:9 as speaking of the same fire that comes down on Christ's enemies as what Paul talks about in 2 Thess 1:7-10 and Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:3-13 on the day Christ returns.

I see 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 as one narrative with the catching up of believers happening on the day Christ returns with the "sudden destruction" from which His enemies "shall not escape" immediately following that. It's the same destruction Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:7;10-12, which will be fire coming down on the entire earth, which explains why Paul said that they will not escape.

I see 2 Thess 2:1-12 as teaching that there will be a time when many fall away from the faith and a time of significantly increased wickedness before the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him (the rapture). I see that time as being equivalent to Satan's little season.

Any questions about what I believe? See how I can explain it without needing charts? Do you have reading comprehension issues or something? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just wondering why you can't understand things without charts.

Douggg said:

Yes, there will be persons born and saved during the millennium.

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How do you reconcile that belief with the fact that Paul said "flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50)?

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't have any charts and I never will. Haven't I made it clear already that I don't care about charts?

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You would see the errors in your views if you did try to make a chart.

Spiritual Jew said:

How do you reconcile that belief with the fact that Paul said "flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50)?

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I did not say that them born and saved during the millennium will be kings and priests of the Kingdom of God.

Douggg said:

I believe there will be a great tribulation timeframe of 1335 days, triggered by the placing of the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast on the temple grounds.

The rapture must take place before then and before the transgression of desolation act (Daniel 8:11-13) by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:3-4 of him stopping the daily sacrifice going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

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Okay, so you are pre-trib then. Why do you continually deny that? Not all pre-tribs have the same exact understanding of the duration of the tribulation but you all believe that the "rapture" has to occur before a future great tribulation time period.

All of that information is on my detailed chart of events for the 7 years. You are supposed to be taking all of the end time events and fitting them into the basic Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the 7 years.

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You are the only person I've ever seen whose main pillar of their doctrine is Ezekiel 39. You couldn't find a more clear passage of scripture to form the foundation of your doctrine on? Unbelievable.

Douggg said:

You would see the errors in your views if you did try to make a chart.

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That is completely untrue and quite hilarious, honestly. You don't even realize it, but I'm exposing the errors of your doctrine as we speak without any need for charts. Is there anything in the world that you love more than your charts?

Douggg said:

I did not say that them born and saved during the millennium will be kings and priests of the Kingdom of God.

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Do you believe that they will be in the kingdom of God or not? How can anyone be saved and not in the kingdom of God?

Spiritual Jew said:

Any questions about what I believe? See how I can explain it without needing charts? Do you have reading comprehension issues or something? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just wondering why you can't understand things without charts.

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Which is better to someone 2000 years ago in understanding what a Chevrolet corvette is? Words, or a picture ?

Spiritual Jew said:

That is completely untrue and quite hilarious, honestly. You don't even realize it, but I'm exposing the errors of your doctrine as we speak without any need for charts. Is there anything in the world that you love more than your charts?

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Correct charts destroy the erroneous assertions of partial preterist, covenant theology, new covenant theology, amils, Judaism, post trib, and the like, interpretations of the bible. So they hate them. I realize that.

Douggg said:

Correct charts destroy the erroneous assertions of partial preterist, covenant theology, new covenant theology, amils, Judaism, post trib, interpretations of the bible. So they hate them. I realize that.

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Wrong. I hate your charts because they are full of falsehood. And one of them in particular is just a complete mess and impossible to make any sense out of it.

Spiritual Jew said:

Wrong. I hate your charts because they are full of falsehood. And one of them in particular is just a complete mess and impossible to make any sense out of it.

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Then make you own charts that are correct and post them.

Douggg said:

Repeating what I wrote in my post #413....

I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.

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You will not answer any questions straight because your doctrine is full of holes. Pretrib has a lot to hide.

Spiritual Jew said:

Okay, so you are pre-trib then. Why do you continually deny that?

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pre-trib implies pre-70th week the rapture must take place. I do not hold that position. The rapture could end up taking place after the 70th week begins.

You guys want to make me a dispensationalist because you are at war with dispensationalism. You want to make me pre-trib, because you are at war with pre-tribbers. I am neither, so just stop, when I say that I am neither.

Douggg said:

You would see the errors in your views if you did try to make a chart.

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Who writes your script? That is ridiculous. Your obsession is unhealthy.

sovereigngrace said:

You will not answer any questions straight because your doctrine is full of holes. Pretrib has a lot to hide.

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Well talk to someone who holds the rapture must take place before the 70th week starts. Do you want me to say that you hold the pre-trib view, but don't want to come out of the closet?

Douggg said:

pre-trib implies pre-70th week the rapture must take place. I do not hold that position. The rapture could end up taking place after the 70th week begins.

You guys want to make me a dispensationalist because you are at war with dispensationalism. You want to make me pre-trib, because you are at war with pre-tribbers. I am neither, so just stop, when I say that I am neither.

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You make yourself a dispensationalist.

Douggg said:

I answered when the kingdom of heaven will be brought to earth, twice already.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

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Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

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Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

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Do you know how to exegete Scripture?

sovereigngrace said:

You make yourself a dispensationalist.

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If you say that one more time, I am going to report you. I have not used the term dispensation in any of my views.