Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

sovereigngrace

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What you are supposed to do is take the events and corresponding timeframes and fit them into the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. Represent by the first chart. The second chart, fitting that framework, is the progression of the great opposer to Jesus. The third chart, fitting that framework, is the detailed critical path flow of events to take place in the 7 years.

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Where is the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a rapture of the Church in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a future millennium mentioned in Ezekiel 39?

There are none of the elements your teachers have falsely taught you in Ezekiel 39. The doctrine is non-existent.
 
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Douggg

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Please tell me how you differ from dispensationalists other than believing that the rapture is not necessarily pre-trib (but you agree with them that it is not post-trib)? You sure seem to believe all the same things they do besides that.
Dispensationalist use the man-made dispensation systematic way of understanding the bible by dividing history up into "dispensations". It is similar to the way that covenant theology uses covenants in their system. Covenant theology advocates are at war against dispensationalism because it broke away from the covenant theology system. It is like Catholicism has a conflict with protestants because they broke away.

I use neither the covenant system, nor the dispensation system.

As far as beliefs held by most dispensationalists, they believe that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 is a peace treaty. I do not. I view the confirming of the covenant for 7 years, refers to the Mt. Sinai covenant confirmed by the Antichrist, as the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name.
 
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Douggg

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Where is the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a rapture of the Church in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a future millennium mentioned in Ezekiel 39?

There are none of the elements your teachers have falsely taught you in Ezekiel 39. The doctrine is non-existent.
Oh, you still want me to answer those a second time...

Where is a rapture of the Church in Ezekiel 39? The rapture is not in Ezekiel 39, nobody every said it was.

Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 39? There is not 7 year tribulation in Ezekiel 39, nor in bible prophecy

Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39? flawed question. Jesus Himself is speaking in the text, having returned to earth, in Ezekiel 39:21-29, His second coming.

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Ezekiel 39? Begins when Jesus returns in Ezekiel 39:21-29, but is not stated in the text.

"There are none of the elements your teachers have falsely taught you in Ezekiel 39." What, who, specifically are the teachers you are talking about? You are just looking for something to say in the absence of examining the text for yourself.



 
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Douggg

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@sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace

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Oh, you still want me to answer those a second time...

Where is a rapture of the Church in Ezekiel 39? The rapture is not in Ezekiel 39, nobody every said it was.

Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 39? There is not 7 year tribulation in Ezekiel 39, nor in bible prophecy

Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39? flawed question. Jesus Himself is speaking in the text, having returned to earth, in Ezekiel 39:21-29, His second coming.

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Ezekiel 39? Begins when Jesus returns in Ezekiel 39:21-29, but is not stated in the text.

"There are none of the elements your teachers have falsely taught you in Ezekiel 39." What, who, specifically are the teachers you are talking about? You are just looking for something to say in the absence of examining the text for yourself.



Exactly. You have nothing. I will keep challenging your butchering of the Word in order to support your false teaching.
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace

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Dispensationalist use the man-made dispensation systematic way of understanding the bible by dividing history up into "dispensations". It is similar to the way that covenant theology uses covenants in their system. Covenant theology advocates are at war against dispensationalism because it broke away from the covenant theology system. It is like Catholicism has a conflict with protestants because they broke away.

I use neither the covenant system, nor the dispensation system.

As far as beliefs held by most dispensationalists, they believe that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 is a peace treaty. I do not. I view the confirming of the covenant for 7 years, refers to the Mt. Sinai covenant confirmed by the Antichrist, as the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name.

Did the Jews thwart Christ setting up the kingdom of heaven? Has it been postponed?
 
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Douggg

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This is all fantasy. You have admitted you have not one Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year trib followed by a 3rd coming yet you think your fantasy charts trump Scripture. How foolish!
I have not said anything about a 7 year tribulation period.

In the anytime rapture view, the rapture may not take place until after the 7 year 70th week begins. ...or it could take place before the 7 year 70th week begins.
 
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Douggg

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Did the Jews thwart Christ setting up the kingdom of heaven? Has it been postponed?
Repeating what I wrote in my post #413....

I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Repeating what I wrote in my post #413....

I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.

More avoidance. That is your MO. For you to be honest would expose you as a Dispy. Answer the questions and stop fudging the issues.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Repeating what I wrote in my post #413....

I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.

You have nothing to support a rapture of the Church followed by years of a trib followed by a 3rd coming. How about quoting hard Scripture instead of your fanciful extra-biblical charts.
 
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Douggg

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More avoidance. That is your MO. For you to be honest would expose you as a Dispy. Answer the questions and stop fudging the issues.
I answered when the kingdom of heaven will be brought to earth, twice already.

Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

_________________________________________________________________

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

___________________________________________________________________



Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I believe that when Jesus returns in the days of the ten kings of Revelation 13 and 17, He will bring the kingdom of heaven, as the the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth over the nations.
Who exactly do you believe will be in that kingdom?
 
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Douggg

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You have nothing to support a rapture of the Church followed by years of a trib followed by a 3rd coming. How about quoting hard Scripture instead of your fanciful extra-biblical charts.
The charts contains the verse, 2Thesslaonians2:4 that the rapture must take place before.


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Dispensationalist use the man-made dispensation systematic way of understanding the bible by dividing history up into "dispensations". It is similar to the way that covenant theology uses covenants in their system. Covenant theology advocates are at war against dispensationalism because it broke away from the covenant theology system. It is like Catholicism has a conflict with protestants because they broke away.

I use neither the covenant system, nor the dispensation system.

As far as beliefs held by most dispensationalists, they believe that the confirming of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9:27 is a peace treaty. I do not. I view the confirming of the covenant for 7 years, refers to the Mt. Sinai covenant confirmed by the Antichrist, as the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name.
Your beliefs are quite similar to theirs in that you focus mainly on Israel instead of the church just like they do, you believe that Daniel 9:27 is about an Antichrist confirming a covenant of some sort for 7 years as the fulfillment of the 70th week just like they do, you believe Jesus will descend from heaven twice in the future just like they do, and you deny the post-trib rapture/catching up of the church just like they do. I'm probably missing a few other things that your view has in common with theirs as well.
 
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Douggg

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Who exactly do you believe will be in that kingdom?
The kingdom of God will be the reigning kingdom over all kingdoms here on earth. Believers in Jesus will be kings and priests in His kingdom.
 
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The kingdom of God will be the reigning kingdom over all kingdoms here on earth. Believers in Jesus will be kings and priests in His kingdom.
Are you talking about believers with mortal bodies or with immortal bodies being kings and priests in His kingdom during that time? Do you believe anyone can be saved during that time?
 
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Douggg

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Your beliefs are quite similar to theirs in that you focus mainly on Israel instead of the church just like they do, you believe that Daniel 9:27 is about an Antichrist confirming a covenant of some sort for 7 years as the fulfillment of the 70th week just like they do, you believe Jesus will descend from heaven twice in the future just like they do, and you deny the post-trib rapture/catching up of the church just like they do. I'm probably missing a few other things that your view has in common with theirs as well.
I would just like to see your chart of the post-trib timing window for the rapture.

I provided a chart for both the anytime rapture view and the pre-trib rapture view.
 
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Douggg

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Are you talking about believers with mortal bodies or with immortal bodies being kings and priests in His kingdom during that time? Do you believe anyone can be saved during that time?
immortal. Yes, there will be persons born and saved during the millennium.
 
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I have not said anything about a 7 year tribulation period.

In the anytime rapture view, the rapture may not take place until after the 7 year 70th week begins. ...or it could take place before the 7 year 70th week begins.
You believe in a future tribulation period, do you not? Do you believe in a 3.5 year tribulation period instead of a 7 year tribulation period? If so, do you believe that the church must be caught up to meet the Lord before that tribulation period begins?
 
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