Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Spiritual Jew

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Do you see the way that it normally goes when debating with Pretribbers? Because they don’t have any hard biblical evidence they resort to name calling.
Yes, that is what they do when they know they have no scripture to refute what we've said.

Otherwise, they resort to desperate, nonsensical interpretations. For example, I showed Doug how his belief that the first resurrection is the resurrection of only future "martyred tribulation saints" does not make sense since he also believes in a resurrection prior to that on the day of "the rapture". That makes the first resurrection of Rev 20 actually the second resurrection according to dispensationalist doctrine. Or, I guess the third resurrection since we know Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection.

So, what does he do in response to that? He says it's the first resurrection of a future millennium. So, I guess there's multiple first resurrections in dispensationalist teaching. Amil believes in what scripture tells us is the first resurrection, which is obviously Christ's resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-23, Rev 1:5-6, etc.).

Amils ‘do not have love’ (Rachel20 #290). They are ‘not holy people’ (fwGod #290). They are ‘emotionally reactive’ Douggg #348). It is ridiculous. It is a testimony as to how destitute their doctrine is. They do not have one single proof-text to bring to the table.
It's very clear. We are merely showing what scripture actually teaches. Their name calling is a sure sign that they know we're telling the truth and have no answer for it, but they want to desperately cling to their doctrine because they want so badly for Israel and the Jews to be God's focus instead of Christ and His church.
 
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Timtofly

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This is a fitting preface to John 17:15. What is more, it beautifully correlates with Christ’s words there and gives us a suitable perspective of what Christ was suggesting. This shows that even though the disciples were in the world, Jesus petitions that they would be preserved in the midst of its many trials and tribulations. Basically: the disciples were under the Father’s protection even though they remained on this wicked earth, which is under the power of the evil one.
The church had a mission for the next 1990 years. No one is objecting the church has not been spared through this period. You reject they leave at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. There is still a few years of The Lamb on earth, when the church is unnecessary. Even if the apostate believes are raptured, at least they are no longer spewing apostasy.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How complicated is it to understand this chart?
Give me a break. That chart says nothing about what Ezekiel 39 actually means. Use words like scripture does, Doug. We don't need charts to interpret scripture or else scripture would have included charts. I have no interest in your charts. If you want to say that Ezekiel 39 is the same event as Rev 19:17-18 then be consistent and acknowledge that it would have to relate to Revelation 20:7-9 as well in that case.
 
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Douggg

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Give me a break. That chart says nothing about what Ezekiel 39 actually means. Use words like scripture does, Doug. We don't need charts to interpret scripture or else scripture would have included charts. I have no interest in your charts. If you want to say that Ezekiel 39 is the same event as Rev 19:17-18 then be consistent and acknowledge that it would have to relate to Revelation 20:7-9 as well in that case.
Again, you are being emotionally reactive, instead of addressing what Ezekiel 39 actually contains.

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Spiritual Jew

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Again, you are being emotionally reactive, instead of addressing what Ezekiel 39 actually contains.
Again, no, I am not. What does Ezekiel 39 contain, Doug? Break the passage down for me and show exactly how it relates to what is taught elsewhere in scripture. No charts. They are useless. Use the words of scripture itself to show exactly how you interpret Ezekiel 39. If you can't do that then you can't be taken seriously.
 
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Douggg

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Again, no, I am not. What does Ezekiel 39 contain, Doug? Break the passage down for me and show exactly how it relates to what is taught elsewhere in scripture. No charts. They are useless. Use the words of scripture itself to show exactly how you interpret Ezekiel 39. If you can't do that then you can't be taken seriously.
I use a chart, with the verses annotated on the chart. Three charts. (1)Basic (2) then general progression of the great opposer to Jesus, (3) then detail of the 7 years 70th week events. The charts are all upper left to lower right.

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Spiritual Jew

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I use a chart, with the verses annotated on the chart.
Then you can't be taken seriously. Your chart is completely convoluted and a total mess. Scripture is written in words and can be explained with words. If you can't do that, and you apparently can't, then you can't be taken seriously.

If you make scripture out to be so complicated that it can't be explained with words and has to be explained with charts, even though it was written with words without charts, then that shows that you have made scripture more complicated and convoluted than it actually is.
 
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Douggg

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Then you can't be taken seriously. Your chart is completely convoluted and a total mess. Scripture is written in words and can be explained with words. If you can't do that, and you apparently can't, then you can't be taken seriously.

If you make scripture out to be so complicated that it can't be explained with words and has to be explained with charts, even though it was written with words without charts, then that shows that you have made scripture more complicated and convoluted than it actually is.
Three charts. (1)Basic (2) then general progression of the great opposer to Jesus, (3) then detail of the 7 years 70th week events.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Then you can't be taken seriously. Your chart is completely convoluted and a total mess. Scripture is written in words and can be explained with words. If you can't do that, and you apparently can't, then you can't be taken seriously.

If you make scripture out to be so complicated that it can't be explained with words and has to be explained with charts, even though it was written with words without charts, then that shows that you have made scripture more complicated and convoluted than it actually is.

Jack Van Imp and his Pretrib friends have been doing this for years. They get away with it because they won't be challenged. On here they can't get away with it. When challenged here they have nothing. It is an extra-biblical belief.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Spiritual Jew

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Jack Van Imp and his Pretrib friends have been doing this for years. They get away with it because they won't be challenged. On here they can't get away with it. When challenged here they have nothing. It is an extra-biblical belief.
I agree. By the way, Van Impe died earlier this year in January. I have to admit that when I was younger I used to watch his show on TV. I liked his enthusiasm for the Lord even though I didn't agree with his pre-trib dispensationalist beliefs. I was never pre-trib like him, but I was fascinated by the news stories that he and Rexella shared. That was back when I used to think every major news story was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. ^_^
 
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sovereigngrace

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I agree. By the way, Van Impe died earlier this year in January. I have to admit that when I was younger I used to watch his show on TV. I liked his enthusiasm for the Lord even though I didn't agree with his pre-trib dispensationalist beliefs. I was never pre-trib like him, but I was fascinated by the news stories that he and Rexella shared. That was back when I used to think every major news story was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. ^_^

I could never handle the show longer than 20 seconds. It came across as all fizz-and-bubble to me. A lot of people in the UK thought the same.
 
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robycop3

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You are mistaken. You are completely missing the context of that verse. That verse is saying that David did not ascend BODILY to heaven like Jesus did because "he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2:29). Where is your discernment? Our souls go to be with the Lord in heaven when we die.

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I agree that the souls of dead believers are in paradise, but you apparently aren't aware of the location of paradise. Did you not know that paradise is the third heaven?

2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul said there will be a mass falling away from the faith before the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him (2 Thess 2:1-3), so that tells me there wouldn't be nearly as much opposition during the time before His second coming as you claim. I see that time as being Satan's little season (Rev 20:7-9) rather than a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation period that dispensationalists believe in.

Why would Jesus take us off of the earth to avoid persecution when He had prayed this?

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
MMRRPP! WRONG!

Jesus himself made it plain that the souls of the dead go to hades. Remember His parable of the rich man & Lazarus. There's a great gulf separating 'torments' from 'paradise'. And Abraham was in paradise. He'd been dead awhile then. It was the same general region, as the rich man & Abe talked in the parable. And Jesus' parables always depicted actual places or events.

Plus, after His resurrection, He said He had not yet ascended to His Father. And we know He went to paradise upon His death. So, that's another thing that shows paradise is not heaven, nor do the souls of the righteous dead go to heaven now.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Three charts. (1)Basic (2) then general progression of the great opposer to Jesus, (3) then detail of the 7 years 70th week events.

... and still not one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. It simply doesn't exist. It is a man-made invention.
 
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Douggg

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And still not one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. It simply doesn't exist. It is a man-made invention.
The rapture is annotated on chart (3).

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sovereigngrace

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MMRRPP! WRONG!

Jesus himself made it plain that the souls of the dead go to hades. Remember His parable of the rich man & Lazarus. There's a great gulf separating 'torments' from 'paradise'. And Abraham was in paradise. He'd been dead awhile then. It was the same general region, as the rich man & Abe talked in the parable. And Jesus' parables always depicted actual places or events.

Plus, after His resurrection, He said He had not yet ascended to His Father. And we know He went to paradise upon His death. So, that's another thing that shows paradise is not heaven, nor do the souls of the righteous dead go to heaven now.

You obviously have a different Bible to the rest of us. You argue what you do as if Christ has not come and defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan.

Paradise

If we go right back to the beginning of time, we see that earthly paradise (in the Garden of Eden) was a beautiful reflection of heavenly paradise. It was basically heaven on earth. Man had perfect and unhindered fellowship with God. He was fulfilling the plan and purpose of God flawlessly. God and creation were at one. God testified repeatedly in Genesis 1 that everything He created “God saw that it was good.” This was a wonderful environment.

Man, himself, was created with the ability to live forever. But, unfortunately, sin changed all that. As a result of that, we learn in Genesis 3:23-24: “Therefore the LORD God sent him (Adam) forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

When Adam partook of the forbidden fruit he was immediately separated from God and disqualified from living in paradise. It was Paradise lost!! In his sinful state, man was no longer welcome in the presence of God. He could no longer enjoy intimate unbroken fellowship with the Almighty. He lost his privileged position and He gave the devil rights over him which he never before possessed.

Interestingly, the Greek Septuagint uses the Greek word paradeisos here to describe the Garden of Eden. It is from this word that we get our word “paradise” in the New Testament. The same word is used in Ezekiel 28:13 in the Old Testament to describe the Garden of Eden.

The angelic “flaming sword” was placed at the border of the Garden of Eden to prevent man from returning to paradise. Man was not qualified or worthy to return there.

As a result of the fall, man was separated from God physically and spiritually. He was forced out of the Garden of Eden and left carrying his own guilt, shame and condemnation. Romans 5:18 states, “as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation.” Outside of salvation, this is man’s legal standing before the bar of God – guilty and condemned.

Throughout the whole of the old covenant, God’s people dead or alive had no automatic access to heaven because of sin. When believers died they went straight to Abraham’s bosom in Hades. This was a waiting place for believers anticipating being rescued by the Messiah.

Even with salvation in the Old Testament, it never secured man’s entry upon death into the heavenly presence of God. Man would rather go in spirit immediately into a waiting place in the center of the earth until the penalty for sin had been paid, the grave defeated, Satan spiritual bound from deceiving the nations and Hades decimated.

The Old Testament hope of the saints of God is seen in David’s words in Psalm 16:10-11: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”

Jesus said in John 3:13: no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Peter confirms this in his great sermon at Pentecost. Acts 2:34 records: “For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.”

Satan had access to heaven

A consequence of man’s fall was that it gave Satan rights and an open door to access heaven and God to accuse the people of God.

Job 1:6-11: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it … Satan … said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.”

Satan held the power of accusation against the elect from the Garden of Eden right up until the cross. Satan knew the demands of God’s law, and he also knew the weakness of man and his inability to keep the law. The law was perfect and it demanded perfect obedience. Because it had not been perfectly adhered to by any man during the old covenant period the elect stood condemned before God. The devil accordingly used this as a stick to constantly bring charges against the elect before the throne of God.

Revelation 12:10 tells us that prior to the resurrection of Christ, Satan accused” the elect before our God day and night.

The enemy could bring bona-fide legal accusations against the saints on the grounds of them breaking God’s holy and eternal law.

If the elect were not yet qualified to enter heaven/ Paradise, where were they?

Christ described Hades in Luke 16:19-23: “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

In verse 24 “he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

He continues in verse 27-28, “Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Lazarus abode in Abraham's bosom after death. This was the lower earth and is known by theologians as a divided Hades. Believers remained here until after the cross. The reason being: sin had not been paid for, death had not been defeated, Satan had not been conquered, and Hades had not been overcome. These are all interlinked in Scripture. The first Adam had handed over dominion to Satan on this front. The Old Testament blood sacrifices could not remove sin, only temporarily cover it. Satan still held the power of death until sin was finally paid for at the cross. He also held a legitimate seat of accusation before the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Heaven finally opened up to the redeemed

Paradise was lost right up until the cross. It only became accessible through Christ’s death on the cross. We see the great historic change in Christ’s promise to the dying penitent thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [paradeisos]”

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

He was about to secure the necessary victory that would open up the gates of heaven to the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise. He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Matt 27:45-53: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm). And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

There is a lot happening here!

· Jesus acquaints Himself with our sin.
· He is enveloped by darkness.
· He is separated from His Father.
· He promised Paradise to a repentant sinner that actual day.

· He dies!
· The veil is rent in 2.
· The presence of God is released to the nations.
· The saints are released from Abraham’s bosom.

The renting of the veil immediately after Christ gave up the ghost spelt the end of the old covenant and the introduction of the new covenant. Right there, God stepped out from behind that curtain and embraced all nations. God required no more animal sacrifices as the temple’s purpose had been completed. The temple was rendered redundant.

Repeated Scripture portrays a victorious Christ since His all-conquering resurrection.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

Christ announced to His disciples in Matthew 28:18, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

Our Lord's earthly assignment involved defeating every enemy of righteousness. It was a full package. But it all culminated in Christ defeating sin, death, Satan and Hades through His resurrection. But His sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection cannot be divorced from each other, as you seem to be trying to do.

When Christ came, justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
 
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sovereigngrace

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MMRRPP! WRONG!

Jesus himself made it plain that the souls of the dead go to hades. Remember His parable of the rich man & Lazarus. There's a great gulf separating 'torments' from 'paradise'. And Abraham was in paradise. He'd been dead awhile then. It was the same general region, as the rich man & Abe talked in the parable. And Jesus' parables always depicted actual places or events.

Plus, after His resurrection, He said He had not yet ascended to His Father. And we know He went to paradise upon His death. So, that's another thing that shows paradise is not heaven, nor do the souls of the righteous dead go to heaven now.

Satan cast down

In John 12:31-33 Christ predicted, shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die (John 12:31-33).

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the unblinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 12:5-11 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Here is when He got His eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

He is talking about sin being judged on the cross, and the immediate result it had upon Satan - he was evicted from heaven. He lost all grounds to condemn the elect anymore. Sin had been paid for in full, and hell had been defeated for all who would take a hold of the cross-work. The accuser has nothing to accuse the elect for as sin - past, present and future - has been fully penalized. Another result was Hades (Abraham's bosom) being emptied of the elect. That happened for the same reason. Hell (and the second death) had been defeated for God's people.

One of the main effects of Satan being evicted from heaven and being spiritual bound was that the nations would be enlightened. But another immediate effect was that dead believers were released from the captivity of Abraham’s bosom and ushered into the heavenly abode.

As He rose they rose. After all, He was defeating the grave on their behalf.

Ephesians 4:8 says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.

Hades had no more hold upon the Old Testament redeemed because the penalty had been paid for sin, and therefore death, Hades and Satan were stripped of their ugly power over them.

David Wilkerson said: “Jesus plundered the devil at Calvary, stripping him of all power and authority. When Christ rose victorious from the grave, he led an innumerable host of redeemed captives out of Satan's grasp. And that blood-bought procession is still marching on.”

You need to first grasp the New Testament truth, that since the cross, Christians never die. You do not seem to grasp that. Read the following Scriptures with an open mind and you will see that death has been defeated. It has no hold over the believer. Jesus has defeated it. You need to see that death is defeated. That is why the redeemed (dead or alive) rule and reign and function as priests and kings.

Death defeated

2 Timothy 1:9-10 says, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Here you have it! Jesus has abolished death on our behalf. He do not need to fear it any more. Our Lord confronted that dark enemy and overcome it, opening up heaven to the dead in Christ through His eternal victory.

Death has lost its sting. Hades has been emptied of the redeemed. Christ’s appeared unto John on the Isle of Patmos years after the cross, in Revelation 1:18, and testified: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (or Hades) and of death.”

Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ now reign in heaven with Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-18 explains: “through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

Christ currently holds the keys of Hades and of death, and Satan cannot snatch them out of His hand. He holds the keys because they belong to Him. He possesses all authority in heaven and on earth. That includes power over life and death.

Praise the Lord, the grave has been defeated.

1 John 3:18 states “The Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.”

Satan had exercised that Adamic authority since the fall. Now it was time for the last Adam to grasp it back. As man’s representative, Christ had to take upon Himself human flesh to meet the devil on his own playing field. He had to take back all that was lost in the Garden. In this, Christ lived the life that Adam couldn’t live. Christ came to live the life man couldn’t live and pay the debt that man could never pay. By Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrected He defeated the authority of Satan and took back all that belonged to Adam. Satan has been stripped of his legal authority to control the nations.

Colossians 1:13 tells us that God has “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

Man today need not superstitiously dread a devil that once possessed the dark “power of death” and who used that weapon to devastatingly terrorize and ensnare the heathen nations. They need no longer walk in awful bondage and fear. They must simply turn to the Cross of Jesus where their freedom was bought. From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in an invisible spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations.

Christ broke Satan’s claim over the Gentiles, and opened up a way of salvation for the heathen. The devil’s ability to deceive the nations has been damaged with the widespread evangelization of the Gentiles. No longer do they sit in complete darkness as before. Death has lost its sting. Revelation 1:18 records Christ’s well-known encounter with John on the Isle of Patmos, after the cross, where He significantly appears with the symbolic keys or authority of hell and of death.

Many today are worried about dying. But Jesus has conquered death so that when we die we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. There is no separation between the redeemed (dead or alive) and their Lord.

Paul testified in Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

It is not just that we have access to paradise upon death, we have access from when we get born again. Listen to what the writer to the Hebrew says in Hebrews 10:19:

Hebrews 10:19-23: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised."

Heaven is where Jesus is. Jesus is where heaven is. If you have Jesus, then heaven is open to you today spiritually, and open to you actually and spatially upon death. The gates of Hades are closed forever to the redeemed, and the gates of heaven are open forever to the redeemed; and all because of Jesus.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I could never handle the show longer than 20 seconds. It came across as all fizz-and-bubble to me. A lot of people in the UK thought the same.
Yeah, I think his style definitely appealed more to American society with the sensationalism of the news reports and so on.
 
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MMRRPP! WRONG!
What in the world kind of response was this? Do you think a childish response like this helps your case at all?

Jesus himself made it plain that the souls of the dead go to hades. Remember His parable of the rich man & Lazarus. There's a great gulf separating 'torments' from 'paradise'. And Abraham was in paradise. He'd been dead awhile then. It was the same general region, as the rich man & Abe talked in the parable. And Jesus' parables always depicted actual places or events.

Plus, after His resurrection, He said He had not yet ascended to His Father.
He was only speaking of not having ascended there bodily yet. He didn't say that He didn't ascend there spiritually. He did and he took the spirit of the thief on the cross and many others with Him. You know He ascended there bodily after His resurrection, right? (Acts 1:9-11)? So, the context of Him saying He hadn't ascended to His Father yet was that He hadn't ascended there bodily yet.

And we know He went to paradise upon His death.
Only his spirit, not his body (Luke 23:46). Is there some reason why you don't differentiate between the body, soul and spirit?

So, that's another thing that shows paradise is not heaven, nor do the souls of the righteous dead go to heaven now.
What exactly is keeping you from seeing that the following passage equates paradise with the third heaven besides doctrinal bias?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 
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