Women Pastors?

chad kincham · Dec 7, 2020

pescador said:
Or you can just take some Scripture out of context and create a new version of the Law.

Why do you create such a bizarre image of ripping pages out of the Bible? Those of us who disagree with you believe what the complete Bible teaches.

=> There is nothing in the Bible that says that women can't be pastors. <=

A woman can be a pastor of an all woman church, but not one with men in it.

This is because women are not to have authority over men, and a pastor is the head of their congregation.

1Ti 2:11 Women should learn in silence and all humility.

1Ti 2:12 I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.

Women can preach the gospel, can teach women and children, can have spiritual gifts, can do anything that doesn’t involve usurping the authority God gave to the man.

Paul said this is because the man was created first, and because Eve was deceived by Satan, but Adam wasn’t.

pescador · Dec 7, 2020

chad kincham said:
A woman can be a pastor of an all woman church, but not one with men in it.

This is because women are not to have authority over men, and a pastor is the head of their congregation.

1Ti 2:11 Women should learn in silence and all humility.

1Ti 2:12 I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.

Women can preach the gospel, can teach women and children, can have spiritual gifts, can do anything that doesn’t involve usurping the authority God gave to the man.

Paul said this is because the man was created first, and because Eve was deceived by Satan, but Adam wasn’t.

I and many other Christians aren't under law; we're under grace. If there is any legitimate reason that women can't 1) read and/or listen, 2) understand what is said/read, and 3) and speak/write God's truth please show me where/why/how. Otherwise it's just prejudice, using the Bible as an excuse.

Gregorikos · Dec 7, 2020

chad kincham said:
1Ti 2:11 Women should learn in silence and all humility.

1Ti 2:12 I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.

May I ask what translation that is, if it is a known translation or one you made up? Because it is incorrect on a number of levels. You've made it say what you think it means rather than what it says.

ItIsFinished! · Dec 7, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Yes, of course God the Spirit inspired those verses to be written.
He also inspired the verses where Paul taught how women should prophesy (i.e with their heads covered). You need to speak to be able to prophesy.
God also inspired the verses where Jesus chose Mary Magdalene to be the first witness to the resurrection. At that time women were thought to be unreliable witnesses and I'm not sure they were even asked to appear in a court of law. Yet who is the first witness to the greatest event in history? Mary Magdalene. And who chose her and told her to go into a roomful of men to give them the Good News and a further message? Jesus.
God also allowed Priscilla to teach Apollos, and in the OT he chose Deborah to be judge over the whole nation.

How do you know that there weren't women in that church who were constantly talking and interrupting the preacher? Paul's words to them that they must be silent and not try to take authority from a man would have been spot on, and certainly inspired by God - as was the rest of his letter.
But that doesn't prove that God forbids women today to be pastors - else he would not be calling, and allowing, them to do so.

God doesn't call women to be pastors.
He doesn't contradict His Word.

Gregorikos · Dec 7, 2020

ItIsFinished! said:
God doesn't call women to be pastors.
He doesn't contradict His Word.

His word doesn't forbid women to be pastors.

Strong in Him · Dec 7, 2020

Albion said:
All right. Let's pretend that everything you wrote in this post had been quoted by me.

Here's the reply--

We're talking about women AS PASTORS.

The thread is not about women praying alongside Paul and/or proclaiming the Good News. This point must have been made at least a dozen times already on this thread or another one.

By you, yes.
But the OP just asked "can women be pastors" and quoted 1 Timothy 2:12.
That was it; no further discussion.

Albion · Dec 7, 2020

Strong in Him said:
By you, yes..

Not "by me."

It's the title of the thread and the question asked by the Original Post!

Strong in Him · Dec 7, 2020

ItIsFinished! said:
God doesn't call women to be pastors.

Look around you - he clearly does.

ItIsFinished! said:
He doesn't contradict His Word.

No; so as he IS calling women to be pastors, there obviously cannot be anywhere in his word that forbids it.

The only problem is that some can't admit that this is what God IS doing today and therefore their interpretation of Scripture might be wrong. It's obviously far better for them to blame all women for being deluded, and men for allowing women to talk them into disobeying God, than to say "well maybe we misunderstood that Scripture."

Strong in Him · Dec 7, 2020

Albion said:
Not "by me."

It's the title of the thread and the question asked by the Original Post!

Who quotes 1 Tim 2:12 as "evidence" and gives no other Scriptural reason or argument.

Many reading that verse would not allow women to have any kind of role in the church; I debated with someone years ago whose wife would not even sing in church. Some read that verse and say that obviously women can worship, pray and prophesy, even preach - just not be a pastor.

So quoting that verse alone does not "prove" that women can't do this - yet that is what the OP did.

Archivist · Dec 7, 2020

The word shepherd, from which we get pastor, isn't used very often in scripture. When it does appear, it is most often used as a verb. The terms elder and overseer are much more common.

Were there women pastors in Biblical times. The Bible doesn't identify any, but it doesn't identify a whole lot of male pastors either. We don't know much about who held the office of elder/overseer/pastor, except that it was certainly very different from the modern office of pastor.

Can a woman be a pastor? If she is called, I certainly think so. The first person to preach the good news of the risen Christ was not a man, it was a woman, Mary Magdalene. Paul specifically identifies Phoebe as a deacon (not a deaconess) of the church in Cenchreae. Junia is identified as being "well known among the apostles." Some say that doesn't specifically name her as an apostle, but to me the meaning is clear.

If you don't believe that women should be pastors that's fine. Don't join a denomination that ordains women. But don't tell me that I am wrong for believing otherwise.

Strong in Him · Dec 7, 2020

Archivist said:
The word shepherd, from which we get pastor, isn't used very often in scripture. When it does appear, it is most often used as a verb.

Rachel was a shepherdess.
Is that the same word, or is there a different word for a shepherd who is a pastor as opposed to a shepherd who is a shepherd?

Archivist · Dec 7, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Rachel was a shepherdess.
Is that the same word, or is there a different word for a shepherd who is a pastor as opposed to a shepherd who is a shepherd?

Interesting. To my knowledge there is no different work for shepherd. That doesn’t mean she was a pastor.

Albion · Dec 7, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Rachel was a shepherdess.
Is that the same word, or is there a different word for a shepherd who is a pastor as opposed to a shepherd who is a shepherd?

Rachel was a person who tended literal sheep--fuzzy-coated farm animals! The word there is not a synonym for a bishop or pastor.

And she was a figure from the Old Testament; she lived many centuries before the Church of Christ was established, so she cannot be relevant to a discussion of women as Christian pastors.

nolidad · Dec 7, 2020

Fervent said:
Verse 11, in the Greek, doesn't necessarily mean their wives and could actually be specifying "women" in general. There is no Biblical reason to distinguish between diakonos in regard to Phoebe and diakonos in 1 Timothy, and such is only done to explain away contrary evidence to a later tradition.

There is a biblical reason:

1 Timothy 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Husband is aner (man) and wife is gyne( married woman) don't get much clearer than that!

nolidad · Dec 7, 2020

Philip_B said:
No, that is not what I said. I certainly agree that if the roll of women as expressed in some of the Greek religious express of the day had become normative in Christianity then the Church would be very different, and I don't mean for the better in this instance. Jesus approach to women was different to Paul, and I think a deep reading of John 4 is very helpful in understanding this.

Sorry but Jesus and Paul both dealt with women equally.

I do not know what you mean by "deep" reading. If it is what many mean that one must "read between teh lines" to discern the real meanng- then NO that is just wrong!

I just simply accept the prohibitions of SCripture as wriotten!

Bishops and deacons must be the husband (aner) of one wife (gyne). Those are very gender specific words. God and Paul were and are both intelligent enough and God knowing the future like He knows the Present , would have known that this would cause conflict. There are perfectly good Greek words that are gender non specific if that is what Gods' intent was!

nolidad · Dec 7, 2020

HappyHope said:
Good to know. It makes sense because some pastors don't make good teachers-let's be honest. Some pastors are weak in upper leadership positions. They say yes to whoever has enthusiasm/money/or likes them. Rarely have I personally witnessed an all-star pastor who can do it all. Most pastors I have come across are excellent at relational nurturing or evangelical outreach. Love them but we all have our niches. Some are wonderful teachers of truth. These pastors are the rarest today. Ministry attracts all sorts because we need all sorts. Amen. Women are generally more emotional. We have our strengths but overall spiritual head honcho of a flock ain't it I reckon.

Well elevating men to positions of leadership in teh church who really should not have been has been a bane of teh church since our earliest days. But the good thing is that teh gates of Hell will not overcome the church and God still has many powerful men of God in pulpits in all areas. We just have to seek and find them.

Gregorikos · Dec 7, 2020

Gregorikos said:
And then you point to 1 Timothy, which wasn't Jesus speaking. So you stretched the truth to make your point. Fine.

THEN....ItIsFinished! said:
You are incorrect. Starting with your first sentence.
Jesus is God and God inspired the words that Paul wrote. That is the truth. No stretching whatsoever.
The only way you could disagree (and still be incorrect) is if you don't believe Jesus is God.

You continually display a myopic view that fails to consider logical alternatives. Most Trinitarians such as myself understand that even though God inspired the Scriptures, they each have a human author.

Paul was the author of 1 Timothy. If you doubt that, you don't believe 1 Timothy 1:1.

zippy2006 · Dec 7, 2020

Albion said:
Rachel was a person who tended literal sheep--fuzzy-coated farm animals! The word there is not a synonym for a bishop or pastor.

And she was a figure from the Old Testament; she lived many centuries before the Church of Christ was established, so she cannot be relevant to a discussion of women as Christian pastors.

"Why are you guys so afraid of female sheep herders?"

nolidad · Dec 7, 2020

Gregorikos said:
You continually display a myopic view that fails to consider logical alternatives. Most Trinitarians such as myself understand that even though God inspired the Scriptures, they each have a human author.

Paul was the author of 1 Timothy. If you doubt that, you don't believe 1 Timothy 1:1.

So then you question teh validity of Pauls auhtority as teh apostle to teh gentiles and that God fully inspired Paul when He wrote teh letters that God knew He Himself would insure were canonized as teh New Testament?

2 Peter 1:20-21
King James Version

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Do you think God used a sloppier standard for the New Testament knowing that millions would die defending its verbal plenary inspiration?

Then how do we discern which passages are fo God and which were the flights of fancy by the authors then?

Personal beliefs? Taste? Culture of the day? Trust more modern thinkers? Feelings? Or like Jim JOnes and David Koresh, the more Charismatic, the more correct they must be?

NO< NO< NO WE trust in SCripture as God breathed it through the men He chose to write His word for mankind!

nolidad · Dec 7, 2020

zippy2006 said:
"Why are you guys so afraid of female sheep herders?"

View attachment 290162

I am not fearful in the least!

Gods Word prohibits women from being ordained as Bishops (Pastors) and to be deacons. We should take Him at His Word! Or should we read into your words something that is not there like the allegorists do!

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