Women Pastors?

Philip_B said:

Let's look at that

You Said




Your outright claim does not seem to have been substantiated. I am not aware of any place in the gospels where Jesus forbids women from ministry or any sort. Your suggestion that @Gregorikos is in blatant denial of the truth would seem to be the 'alternative fact', and unless you are able to substantiate the claim you are so passionate about, then your argument must fail.

If you have evidence that Jesus who discussed theology with the Samaritan Woman at the Well (John 4) at any stage forbade women to be pastors, then you need to declare it with evidence. It was after all this same Jesus, following his resurrection commissioned Mary Magdalene to go and tell the men folk (John 20).

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I never said it was exclusively in the gospels, but since you bring it up , read the first chapter of the gospel of John. Jesus is God , and was God in the flesh. He is also is known as The Word. God inspired the Scriptures. All the Scriptures.
So yes, He forbade women from being pastors.
This shouldn't be so complicated for one to understand. Unless one disagrees with The Word of God.
This should be sufficient to appease your said evidence, unless pride paves an obstruction.

Ref. First Timothy chapter 2:11-12
God inspired the words within the above verses.

ItIsFinished! said:

I never said it was exclusively in the gospels, but since you bring it up , read the first chapter of the gospel of John. Jesus is God , and was God in the flesh. He is also is known as The Word.

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I suspect you may be conflagrating Logos and Graphos. As it so happens I have read the first chapter of John (perhaps even more than once). The force of John is that the creative word from before the beginning which calls the universe into being tabernacles in our midst in the person of Jesus.


I am happy with the notion that God speaks to us in scripture, but to suggest that Scripture, the record of revelation, is of itself divine is not something I am ready to embrace. I would be much more ready to accept your proposition, if the gospels recorded this as something that Jesus said. I have a great deal of respect for Paul, and he has played a significant role in the formation of the Church as we know it, however Paul was not and at no time claimed to be the logos, far from it.

Your use of the term 'the Scriptures' also has the other problem, in that it is unclear as to which books you include, and which you exclude. The larger part of the Church accepts the Deuterocanonical texts as scripture so I take it that the force or 'All the Scriptures' is to include the Deuterocanonicals.

Have anyone heard this :

Adonai gives the command; the women with the good news are a mighty army. -Psalms 68:11

Can women not share the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Let us hear women called by God share good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Are they not a mighty army?
Evaluate yourself !

I would first ask a more fundamental question: What is the Biblical mandate for a pastor? You seem to assume that this is Bible teaching, since you use a verse that speaks about teaching to say something about being a pastor. Do you think teachers and pastors are the same thing?

SANTOSO said:

Have anyone heard this :

Adonai gives the command; the women with the good news are a mighty army. -Psalms 68:11

Can women not share the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ?

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Absolutely women can share the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That was never in question.
Can they be a pastor was the question and topic.
The Word of God states they cannot in First Timothy Timothy 2:11-12.
This isn't a negative towards women ,it's just the way God has said it to be.

ItIsFinished! said:

Absolutely women can share the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That was never in question.
Can they be a pastor was the question and topic.
The Word of God states they cannot in First Timothy Timothy 2:11-12.
This isn't a negative towards women ,it's just the way God has said it to be.

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In 1 Timothy 2:11-12, where was that woman mentioned as a pastor ?

ItIsFinished! said:

Repeating a erronious futile statement in regards to the topic at hand doesn't make it true.

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True. So why to you keep doing it?

Albion said:

I'd say that's obviously an exaggeration, considering the list of names of women who held important positions in the early church other than as pastors. We've read those names (Phoebe, Priscilla, Deborah, Perpetua, etc.) and others in almost every thread that deals with this same subject.

So they were held up as important enough and responsible enough that this proves something about how highly they were regarded...and now you post a message that says the opposite about them.

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It's a pity you didn't quote the rest of my post where I said that women were allowed to pray alongside the apostles, work alongside Paul and proclaim the Good News.

It seems that having a female pastor/overseer had not been considered then, but all that is very far from Paul's apparent teaching that women must be silent and not teach or "have authority" over a man - which was the verse that was quoted in the OP.

ItIsFinished! said:

I never said it was exclusively in the gospels, but since you bring it up , read the first chapter of the gospel of John. Jesus is God , and was God in the flesh. He is also is known as The Word. God inspired the Scriptures. All the Scriptures.
So yes, He forbade women from being pastors.
This shouldn't be so complicated for one to understand. Unless one disagrees with The Word of God.
This should be sufficient to appease your said evidence, unless pride paves an obstruction.

Ref. First Timothy chapter 2:11-12
God inspired the words within the above verses.

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Yes, of course God the Spirit inspired those verses to be written.
He also inspired the verses where Paul taught how women should prophesy (i.e with their heads covered). You need to speak to be able to prophesy.
God also inspired the verses where Jesus chose Mary Magdalene to be the first witness to the resurrection. At that time women were thought to be unreliable witnesses and I'm not sure they were even asked to appear in a court of law. Yet who is the first witness to the greatest event in history? Mary Magdalene. And who chose her and told her to go into a roomful of men to give them the Good News and a further message? Jesus.
God also allowed Priscilla to teach Apollos, and in the OT he chose Deborah to be judge over the whole nation.

How do you know that there weren't women in that church who were constantly talking and interrupting the preacher? Paul's words to them that they must be silent and not try to take authority from a man would have been spot on, and certainly inspired by God - as was the rest of his letter.
But that doesn't prove that God forbids women today to be pastors - else he would not be calling, and allowing, them to do so.

Darren Brown said:

Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

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Our societal outlook is too individualistic to understand the context of this saying.

A pastor was more than a man, a pastor was the whole family unit, at least what I can tell from the context.

Darren Brown said:

Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

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Easy answer:

If a woman wants to serve, she should strive to find a place that allows her to do so. As a woman, she has a distinct advantage... Any place that won’t let her serve clearly doesn’t have the same ethics or call she has and is thus a poor fit. She can easily weed out the places that won’t work.

On the flip side, if a female pastor makes you feel insecure, you should simply pick the church that has the non-threatening church culture you prefer.

Problem solved.

Strong in Him said:

It's a pity you didn't quote the rest of my post where I said that women were allowed to pray alongside the apostles, work alongside Paul and proclaim the Good News.

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All right. Let's pretend that everything you wrote in this post had been quoted by me.

Here's the reply--

We're talking about women AS PASTORS.

The thread is not about women praying alongside Paul and/or proclaiming the Good News. This point must have been made at least a dozen times already on this thread or another one.

lismore said:

Hello All. Just wondering. If the scriptures can be seen to support the idea of female leaders or at least not to rule out the idea, why has the practice of the church been over 1,900 years of not having female leaders in the church? Why did it just become an issue in the last two generations? God Bless

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Because the kingdom of God advances. We live in an entirely different times and places than the Bible discusses. The role of women in Biblical times was very different from the way women live today. Girls became "women" as teen agers are were expected to raise the children, cook the food, take care of the homestead, and other domestic chores. Boys were taught in schools and were expected to be a part of the community as "adults", making a living through their trades.

In many cases the roles have changed in approximately 2,000 years. Many girls are educated in advanced societies and perform important leadership roles in both the private and public sectors. There are very few roles outside of the most extreme physical labor that women aren't performing today.

There are people who pretend that the rules and regulations of society that applied 2,000 years ago and more should apply universally today, as though nothing has changed. Perhaps there are some societies that can benefit from Biblical customs, folkways, and mores, but to think that we men are all still shepherds and fisherman and women are nothing but maidservants doesn't make any sense in 2020.

ItIsFinished! said:

Actually He did.
Your blatant denial of the truth will not change that fact.

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And then you point to 1 Timothy, which wasn't Jesus speaking. So you stretched the truth to make your point. Fine.

1 Timothy 2:12 isn't about being a pastor. It says nothing about being a pastor. The pastoral instructions don't begin until 3:1.

1 Timothy chapter 2 has absolutely nothing in it that signals Paul is speaking about church leadership.

Verse 8 is addressing a problem among the men. "Men" is plural. It is to men "everywhere," not just the church service.

Verse 9-10 is addressing a modesty problem among the women. "Women" is plural. I hope you agree that modesty should be practiced by women "everywhere" - not just the church service.

Verse 11 changes from plural to singular. This continues with a singular woman (Guné Strongs 1135) and a singular man (Aner, Strongs 0435) through the end of the chapter until a plural "they" in verse 15. These two words are the same words used for wife and husband in 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, and throughout the New Testament.

The switch to singular indicates the discussion has switched from men and women in general (verses 8-10) to the married couple. Paul then compares them to Adam and Eve, the first married couple, and "she" safely has a baby in verse 15 if "they" (the husband and wife) continue in faith. love, and holiness, with self-control.

There is nothing about pastors in this passage.

That is the question. If you read and want to follow the Bible? No.

If you want to do whatever you want and rip out pages of the Bible that offend you, than yes. Women can be pastors.

coronawatching said:

According to the translation you furnished, if a woman should not teach her husband, how then could she be his pastor and the pastor of many 'husbands" in her congregation? Paul spoke about the order of creation in these passages. Twisting the meaning of scripture to make it line up with vain philosophy is dangerous.

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Why do you and others change the meaning of Paul's writings into law? As you wrote, twisting the meaning of scripture to make it line up with vain philosophy is dangerous.

Christians are supposed to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ to guide us, not create some pseudo-Biblical law from the writings of Paul.

Neostarwcc said:

That is the question. If you read and want to follow the Bible? No.

If you want to do whatever you want and rip out pages of the Bible that offend you, than yes. Women can be pastors.

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Or you can just take some Scripture out of context and create a new version of the Law.

Why do you create such a bizarre image of ripping pages out of the Bible? Those of us who disagree with you believe what the complete Bible teaches.

=> There is nothing in the Bible that says that women can't be pastors. <=

pescador said:

Or you can just take some Scripture out of context and create a new version of the Law.

Why do you create such a bizarre image of ripping pages out of the Bible? Those of us who disagree with you believe what the complete Bible teaches.

=> There is nothing in the Bible that says that women can't be pastors. <=

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Okay live in that little fantasy world. The verses "taken out of context" actually mean what the translators translated the verses into from the Greek. But yes, Paul took what he wrote out of context.

Darren Brown said:

Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

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The totality of scripture is clear that a woman can preach the gospel, can teach women and children, can do everything a man can do, except to be a pastor of a congregation that has men in it, or usurp a mans authority.

Paul said this is because of seniority rights - Adam was created first - and because Eve was deceived but Adam wasn’t, by the devil.