Sovereigngrace- If you posted any other posts to me I didn't find or see it. But I saw this by you.
The following is my response to a post where you as a former pretribber supplied some pre-trib scriptures. It was not addressed to me.
Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?
Well, when you first claim that none of the pretribber theology is Biblical.. without providing a for instance..
that indicates that you are starting off in an argumentative attitude.
In my own personal life of recent days I particularly most strongly preferred to not engage in more disagreement on a Christian discussion forum where one would hope to be met with a pleasant attitude.
That is why I specifically chose a thread that had an OP that I agreed with. I didn't post with the idea of offering it for disagreement with whoever came along.
You only assumed that I declined because the pretribber theology was weak.
You really need to consider why the person you choose to disagree with isn't interested in debating a Bible topic. There's no law that requires a poster to discuss more than they want to. It's error to assume why.
I will add concerning your quick and erroneous judgement of this pre-tribber, that you've only done numerous duckings around in any request or suggestion that I made to you.
No this is the mantra of Pretribbers. They puff out their chest and boast in the superiority of their doctrine (with statements like "Holiness is more effective if one believes in a Pre-Trib Rapture"), but are slow to show hard biblical evidence. That is because it simply doesn't exist. Many of us on here are former Pretribbers. We were fooled for years. We know the doctrine does not exist in Holy Writ. It is a man-made doctrine.
Until this..
Does it say that Jesus comes to the earth while the following occurs? No. It states further down in the text that (we) "meet the Lord in the air".
Such a thing indicates that this occurrence is not, repeat, NOT the Second Coming.
This then is the classic proof text of the rapture.
The Greek version was written after, repeat, AFTER the Latin version., which uses the Latin word "rapturo" from which is derived the English word "rapture".
It's unreasonable to tell someone to just use Greek or English and not to use the Latin Bible to explain where the word rapture comes from. Such an attitude is a closed mind to all knowledge, and implying that everyone else should have the same closed mind as you.
That ends the text concerning the rapture of all the saints of the church age.
The text (provided by sovereigngrace) does not give the information as to when the rapture will happen.
The following is what happens after, I repeat, AFTER the rapture occurs.
In this verse is the same phrase ["the day of the Lord"] earlier spoken of in 1 Thes.2:2.
Who shall "the Day of the Lord" come as a thief in the night to? To the believers? No. To the unbelievers.
Wrong. I wish Pretribbers read the texts they mention before posting. It would save them advancing error. The coming of the Lord comes to believers and unbelievers alike; only the believers are ready, the unbelievers are not. There is one final future coming of Christ. Every Scripture depicts one coming, which finds two peoples when He comes - those who are either saved or lost, caught up or caught on, experience eternal bliss or eternal torment.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is probably the most commonly presented reading in the Bible forwarded to support a Pretrib rapture. However, it is a text that is so often misunderstood and therefore misinterpreted. In fact, there is a lot imputed into it that is frankly not there. There is a lot that is overlooked that should be carefully noted. We should therefore start our study by considering this important text.
There is one thing that every true Bible student will be in agreement on and that is that this passage is a vivid record of Christ’s coming and what accompanies it. The text declares:
“if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr.
harpazō]
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
One thing we should acknowledge as we dissect this text is that
“the coming of the Lord” is synonymous here with
“the day of the Lord.” Moreover, this passage is exhorting the Church to remain watchful as this final day approaches. Man should prepare himself for this great and terrible day because it will spell the end of time, the end of the wicked and the end of all rebellion.
After comforting the Church, Paul then warns it:
“Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
After outlining the awfulness of that day for those left behind, the suddenness of its arrival, and the fact that none left behind will escape, Paul makes clear that we are not ignorant of this day and will therefore not be caught unprepared. Christ is going to rescue us – by being caught up – from this awful sudden and total destruction that is going to destroy the wicked. Clearly, we are here when the coming of Christ arrives as a thief in the night, but are prepared and, as a consequence, rescued to escape the awful destruction.
There is a scripture that is similar to this.. Revelation 3:7-13 The Word of the Lord to the Church Philedelphia. Verse 10 "Because you have kept the Word (message) of My perseverance.."
The apostle John calls himself a partaker (Rev.1:9)..
Rev.3:10, .."I also will keep you from the hour of testing (trial, trouble, tribulation)"..
The word 'trouble' connects with the Hebrew/Jewish phrase for "The Tribulation" which is "The Time of Jacob's Trouble" Jer.30:7.
Rev.3:10, .."which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
The text does not say "it will come upon (you, church, when you are on the earth)", it says "it will come upon those who will dwell upon the earth".
For where are you when it happens? You have been caught up in the air to be with the Lord. And that is how you are kept from that tribulation. Because you have persevered, therefore what more perseverence do you need? None.
Why don't you need it? Because the rapture is a fulfillment of the Jewish Moed "Trumpets". It happens at the end of the Church Age. The other bookend to the Moed "Pentecost" which began the Church Age.
In Rev.3:1-6 Jesus addresses The Church Sardis.. "If you will not wake up.."
1 Thes.5:6 says "Let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.." The verse before that said "You are all sons of light and of the day and not of night or of darkness."
1 Thes.5:4 says "You are not of darkess that the day should overtake you like a thief."
Rev.3:3 "I will come like a thief and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."
What coming is Jesus talking about? Can we know what hour He comes? Is He talking about the rapture? No. He's talking about His Second Coming, Rev.19:11-15. When He comes all eyes will see Him (Rev.1:7), and His entourage of pre-trib raptured church of Philedelphia saints.
So, to those who He comes like a thief, they slept through the rapture. Because they were not alert concerning it. So they go through the Tribulation.
The following verses are speaking of those who're upon the earth during the Tribulation.
There is no escape to them because they have not Jesus Christ who provides the way of escape (1 Cor.10:13).
Lk.21:36 "So keep watch (stay awake) at all times and pray that you be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
How many times are Pretribbers on this thread going to avoid the Amil arguments that expose this Pretrib fallacy? How many times are you going to ignore?
Revelation 3:7-13:
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.
Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.
Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.
They need to see that the subject matter (namely the keeping) in Revelation 3:10 is reciprocal:
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee.” Jesus was telling them:
because the church in Philadelphia had been faithful, Christ was going to be faithful in return. He is basically promising to safeguard or watch over His faithful flock.
This was an actual literal promise to an existing church 2,000 yrs ago. But Pretrib makes this promise totally irrelevant to the ones it was actually directed towards. They render it a worthless and baseless assurance.
J. Dwight Pentecost articulates the pretribulational understanding of this passage, saying: “Since
ek is used here it would indicate that John is promising a removal from the sphere of testing, not a preservation through it. This is further substantiated by the use of the words ‘the hour’. God is not only guarding from the trials but from the very hour itself when these trials will come on those earth dwellers” (Things to Come).
Pentecost’s bias towards Pretrib prevents him from looking objectively at this simple passage. What he misses is, the same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned:
“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.
“
keep (tēreō) them from (
ek) the evil” (John 17:15)
“
keep (tēreō) thee from (
ek) the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)
In fact, these are the only two places in Scripture that the Greek words
tēreō and
ek are found together. Not only do these two passages
not teach an escape for the Church from this world, but Christ plainly and succinctly proclaims the contrary. Whatever “the hour of temptation” represented to the Philadelphian church they knew that they would be sheltered from its awful throes. There is no indication that they anticipated that blessing to involve being beamed out of the Roman Empire.
If Christ was talking about taking His elect away from the earth as Pretrib suggests then He would surely have said exactly that. Instead of promising to “keep them from the evil” He would rather have promised to
“take them out of the world” (
airo autos ek ho kosmos). But Christ actual says the opposite, praying: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” The comparison between these two texts cannot be lightly dismissed as they were both penned by the same author.
In both John 17:15 and Revelation 3:10 Jesus was speaking of ‘keeping’ believers from satanic attack. Of course, this did not imply that His disciples would be raptured out of the world. They weren’t. There is therefore no basis to think that end time believers wouldn’t be similarly kept. There is definitely nothing in Revelation 3:10 that would support or require a physical removal of the Church from planet earth.
The introduction that Christ gives before John 17:15 in John 11-12 reinforces what Christ is presenting:
“now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep (tēreō) through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēreō) them in thy name.”
This is a fitting preface to John 17:15. What is more, it beautifully correlates with Christ’s words there and gives us a suitable perspective of what Christ was suggesting. This shows that even though the disciples were in the world, Jesus petitions that they would be preserved in the midst of its many trials and tribulations. Basically: the disciples were under the Father’s protection even though they remained on this wicked earth, which is under the power of the evil one.
