Women Pastors?

Cormack

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I’d also like to know whether or not there’s enough scriptural foundation to undermine so many Bible teachings that limit major leadership in the church to men. It seems as though the Bible’s clear on the subject.

1 Timothy 3:1-3

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.​

Titus 1:5-9

This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach.

He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
1 Timothy 2:11-14 (to just add emphasis onto Darren Brown’s initial quotation.)

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.​
 
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dzheremi

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No. That doesn't mean they cannot preach in certain contexts (e.g., abbesses like the famous Tamav Irini), but if by pastor you mean be ordained to the priesthood in some kind of position analogous to that of a priest, there's no precedent for that in any tradition prior to the modern age. People can talk about the Biblical example of Phoebe until they're blue in the face; it won't change the fact that she was a deaconess, and there are plenty of those in many traditional churches (e.g., the Russian, Armenian, and others) which still don't admit the innovation of a female priesthood.
 
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Fervent

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But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
(1 Corinthians 1:27)

Seems to me, if God equips a woman to preach the church is at a disservice not putting those gifts to work.
 
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pescador

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Why are you guys so afraid of women? Are you afraid you might learn something, or are you afraid that men might lose their exclusive knowledge of the truth, or ...
 
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Cormack

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Why are you guys so afraid of women? Are you afraid you might learn something, or are you afraid that men might lose their exclusive knowledge of the truth, or ...

I don’t think it requires that sort of in-depth mind reader style chiding, it’s okay for people to try and follow the Bible faithfully without having the sexism, homophobia, racist anvil thrown in their direction.

I for one am genuinely curious about what the preponderance of Bible verses teach here. We should be able to go into those things without the whole “you hate women” rhetoric.
 
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dzheremi

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Why are you guys so afraid of women? Are you afraid you might learn something, or are you afraid that men might lose their exclusive knowledge of the truth, or ...

I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm not afraid of women. I even brought up one example in the modern life of my own Church of a woman who is a huge spiritual influence on us, and was specifically allowed to teach (Tamav Irini only departed in 2006, so you can even find YouTube videos of her teaching, though I'm pretty sure they're only in Arabic). I firmly believe that she is a saint, and though she has yet to be publicly declared one, it would not surprise me if she were in the future.

None of this changes the fact that women cannot be priests. I likewise can't be a nun, but you won't see me complaining about the 'sexism' involved in that unchangeable fact. Not everything is for everyone just because equality or whatever.
 
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Cormack

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Hopefully people assume the best of those contributing while we digest the material in chat, if they feel easily “triggered” around the subject I’d recommend they avoid this particular topic altogether, lest they think ill of anyone who’s not meaning them any harm.

Recently I’ve been reading up on the topic of male and females roles in marriage, but amidst that material there’s often verses about male leadership roles in the church. So Darrens topic is bringing a lot of scripture to mind.

There are also verses that seem to have overlap, touching on both our ideal teaching climate within the church and leadership roles in marriage (1 Corinthians 14:34-35.)

The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shamed for a woman to speak in church.
Are there good reasons to reject the material being shared that are grounded in scripture, or are they only found in our modern sensitivities?
 
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Cormack, you wrote, "I don’t think it requires that sort of in-depth mind reader style chiding, it’s okay for people to try and follow the Bible faithfully without having the sexism, homophobia, racist anvil thrown in their direction."

Just what is the (multifacted) sexism, homophobia, racist anvil "thrown" at you? Do you really think that Jesus' message to humanity is to judge people by their gender, "racial" characteristics, sexual activity, etc? Matthew 7:1-2, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

So, what measure should be used to judge you, Cormack?

Notice that Jesus 1) blessed women -- the Samaritan(!) woman at the well, the woman who touched the hem of His robe, and others -- 2) didn't mention or even allude to homosexuality, and 3) told the parable of the good Samaritan (the best parable about who follows God's will despite their ethnicity).

These are all examples from Scripture, specifically the parables of the New Testament.

If you want to try to follow the Bible faithfully then you must pay attention to what it actually says.
 
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zippy2006

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I don’t think it requires that sort of in-depth mind reader style chiding, it’s okay for people to try and follow the Bible faithfully without having the sexism, homophobia, racist anvil thrown in their direction.

I for one am genuinely curious about what the preponderance of Bible verses teach here. We should be able to go into those things without the whole “you hate women” rhetoric.

There are people who really want women pastors and yet find no scriptural or traditional evidence to support their case. What else is there to do but demonize the opposition?

It's quite simple: scripture says no, tradition says no, but the modern world says yes.
 
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dzheremi

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There are people who really want women pastors and yet find no scriptural or traditional evidence to support their case. What else is there to do but demonize the opposition?

It's quite simple: scripture says no, tradition says no, but the modern world says yes.

I guess everyone who ever lived is wrong.
 
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Albion

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There have been so many threads/tickets dealing with this same subject.

Wouldn't it be better to go to one of them rather than us starting from scratch with another round the same old arguments again?. One of those other threads is still current, I believe.
 
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There are people who really want women pastors and yet find no scriptural or traditional evidence to support their case. What else is there to do but demonize the opposition?

It's quite simple: scripture says no, tradition says no, but the modern world says yes.

There is nothing in Scripture about -- let's see -- television (so no televised sermons), radio (so no broadcast sermons), the complete (printed) Bible (so no bound personal Bibles), cathedrals or modern church buildings, electricity, automobiles, computers, the Internet, telephones, cameras, electricity, etc., etc., etc.

God is beyond time and place, and He loves the world (not just men). Why not exclude everyone but males of Middle Eastern/Mediterranean origin from the ministry? Then you would be 100% in conformity with what is "Biblical".
 
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Albion

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There is nothing in Scripture about -- let's see -- television (so no televised sermons), radio (so no broadcast sermons), the complete (printed) Bible (so no bound personal Bibles), cathedrals or modern church buildings, electricity, automobiles, computers, the Internet, telephones, cameras, electricity, etc., etc., etc.

Were any of those available in the first century? Women members of the Church were.

Hint: the answer is "no." Therefore, the comparison is invalid.
 
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dzheremi

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There is nothing in Scripture about -- let's see -- television (so no televised sermons), radio (so no broadcast sermons), the complete (printed) Bible (so no bound personal Bibles), cathedrals or modern church buildings, electricity, automobiles, computers, the Internet, telephones, cameras, electricity, etc., etc., etc.

God is beyond time and place, and He loves the world (not just men). Why not exclude everyone but males of Middle Eastern/Mediterranean origin from the ministry? Then you would be 100% in conformity with what is "Biblical".

This is specious reasoning. Christ commanded His apostles to go forth and baptize all nations, thereby eliminating the ethnic and geographical barriers to receiving His message. Yet the very same people who would be converted by the apostles and their descendants whether in India, Ethiopia, the Slavic lands, etc. (i.e., everywhere outside of the Holy Land/eastern Mediterranean) never received a message as part of their Christianization that they ought to have female priests (and this includes people who were converted by women missionaries, like the Georgians; see: St. Nino).

Somehow that particular development only comes up in modern western societies in the last century. What are the chances!
 
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Were any of these available in the first century?

Hint: it's "no." Therefore, the comparison is invalid.

You wrote earlier, "It's quite simple: scripture says no, tradition says no, but the modern world says yes." Many things that exist today didn't exist in the Biblical millennia or in "tradition" (whatever that means). That is my point. God was/is not frozen in time. Spiritually we must adjust to the times that we live in. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and others missed Jesus because they couldn't see beyond their own narrow, contemporaneous understanding.
 
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Ancient of Days

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Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

I think you already know the answer, God created men and women for different tasks...

Gods word says what it says, the real question is am I going to obey God or listen to the world...
 
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This is specious reasoning. Christ commanded His apostles to go forth and baptize all nations, thereby eliminating the ethnic and geographical barriers to receiving His message. Yet the very same people who would be converted by the apostles and their descendants whether in India, Ethiopia, the Slavic lands, etc. (i.e., everywhere outside of the Holy Land/eastern Mediterranean) never received a message as part of their Christianization that they ought to have female priests (and this includes people who were converted by women missionaries, like the Georgians; see: St. Nino).

Somehow that particular development only comes up in modern western societies in the last century. What are the chances!

The "chances" are that God is not frozen in time or geography. Can you give me one single reason that women are mentally, intellectually, or spiritually inferior to men? Why didn't Jesus tell men that they should announce to His disciples that He was alive? He trusted women to deliver perhaps the most important message of the Bible.
 
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Albion

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You wrote earlier, "It's quite simple: scripture says no, tradition says no, but the modern world says yes." Many things that exist today didn't exist in the Biblical millennia or in "tradition" (whatever that means). That is my point.

But your particular twist on the point was invalid, for the reason I explained.

The opportunity to have women presbyters and bishops was evident, just as it was for making them church leaders in a variety of other roles. Yet that was not done.

When you compare it with electricity or computers, however, those things were NOT options, so there is no significance in the fact that these were not used.
 
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But your particular twist on the point was invalid, for the reason I explained.

The opportunity to have women presbyters and bishops was evident, just as it was for making them church leaders in a variety of other roles. Yet that was not done.

When you compare it with electricity or computers, however, those things were NOT options, so there is no significance in the fact that these were not used.

Times and society change. One of the main reasons that the Pharisees and Sadducees missed recognizing Jesus as God was because they couldn't adjust to the times. They missed the Son of God because it didn't fit into what their antiquated beliefs clearly stated.
 
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