Sovereigngrace- If you posted any other posts to me I didn't find or see it. But I saw this by you.
The following is my response to a post where you as a former pretribber supplied some pre-trib scriptures. It was not addressed to me.
Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?
It is impossible to engage with Pretribbers because they do not address what Amils present.
Well, when you first claim that none of the pretribber theology is Biblical.. without providing a for instance..
that indicates that you are starting off in an argumentative attitude.
In my own personal life of recent days I particularly most strongly preferred to not engage in more disagreement on a Christian discussion forum where one would hope to be met with a pleasant attitude.
That is why I specifically chose a thread that had an OP that I agreed with. I didn't post with the idea of offering it for disagreement with whoever came along.
You only assumed that I declined because the pretribber theology was weak.
They just duck around it.
You really need to consider why the person you choose to disagree with isn't interested in debating a Bible topic. There's no law that requires a poster to discuss more than they want to. It's error to assume why.
I will add concerning your quick and erroneous judgement of this pre-tribber, that you've only done numerous duckings around in any request or suggestion that I made to you.
Until this..
I already addressed 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven.."
Does it say that Jesus comes to the earth while the following occurs? No. It states further down in the text that (we) "meet the Lord in the air".
Such a thing indicates that this occurrence is not, repeat, NOT the Second Coming.
..with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō]
This then is the classic proof text of the rapture.
The Greek version was written after, repeat, AFTER the Latin version., which uses the Latin word "rapturo" from which is derived the English word "rapture".
It's unreasonable to tell someone to just use Greek or English and not to use the Latin Bible to explain where the word rapture comes from. Such an attitude is a closed mind to all knowledge, and implying that everyone else should have the same closed mind as you.
.. together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
That ends the text concerning the rapture of all the saints of the church age.
The text (provided by sovereigngrace) does not give the information as to when the rapture will happen.
The following is what happens after, I repeat, AFTER the rapture occurs.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
In this verse is the same phrase ["the day of the Lord"] earlier spoken of in 1 Thes.2:2.
Who shall "the Day of the Lord" come as a thief in the night to? To the believers? No. To the unbelievers.
There is a scripture that is similar to this.. Revelation 3:7-13 The Word of the Lord to the Church Philedelphia. Verse 10 "Because you have kept the Word (message) of My perseverance.."
The apostle John calls himself a partaker (Rev.1:9)..
Rev.3:10, .."I also will keep you from the hour of testing (trial, trouble, tribulation)"..
The word 'trouble' connects with the Hebrew/Jewish phrase for "The Tribulation" which is "The Time of Jacob's Trouble" Jer.30:7.
Rev.3:10, .."which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
The text does not say "it will come upon (you, church, when you are on the earth)", it says "it will come upon those who will dwell upon the earth".
For where are you when it happens? You have been caught up in the air to be with the Lord. And that is how you are kept from that tribulation. Because you have persevered, therefore what more perseverence do you need? None.
Why don't you need it? Because the rapture is a fulfillment of the Jewish Moed "Trumpets". It happens at the end of the Church Age. The other bookend to the Moed "Pentecost" which began the Church Age.
In Rev.3:1-6 Jesus addresses The Church Sardis.. "If you will not wake up.."
1 Thes.5:6 says "Let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.." The verse before that said "You are all sons of light and of the day and not of night or of darkness."
1 Thes.5:4 says "You are not of darkess that the day should overtake you like a thief."
Rev.3:3 "I will come like a thief and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."
What coming is Jesus talking about? Can we know what hour He comes? Is He talking about the rapture? No. He's talking about His Second Coming, Rev.19:11-15. When He comes all eyes will see Him (Rev.1:7), and His entourage of pre-trib raptured church of Philedelphia saints.
So, to those who He comes like a thief, they slept through the rapture. Because they were not alert concerning it. So they go through the Tribulation.
The following verses are speaking of those who're upon the earth during the Tribulation.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
There is no escape to them because they have not Jesus Christ who provides the way of escape (1 Cor.10:13).
Lk.21:36 "So keep watch (stay awake) at all times and pray that you be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Now your following question previously posted to me ..
[quote:
Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?
sovereigngrace- Can you furnish us with one single proof-text anywhere that teaches a rapture of the church, :[/quote]
Really? You chose to go with that? Knowing what the title of the thread is?
In the above post from you, you provided the 1 Thes.4 text that teaches the rapture.
sovereigngrace- followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming? :[/quote]
The book of Revelation is mostly about the 7 year Tribulation which begins in Chapter 6. In Chapter 19 is the Second Coming of Christ.
As I posted previously.. I don't see any 3rd coming in the scriptures.
