Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

sovereigngrace · Dec 5, 2020

Douggg said:
Because it eliminates the post tribe view, right?

You ask some questions reqarding the futurist view generally associated with well known commentators holding the pre-tribulation view. Some parts of their interpretation I agree with and some I don't. My comments in blue.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9? same two questions. the 7 year 70th week is not all "tribulation".

3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9? a non-issue question.

4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9? there is no 3rd coming claim by anyone.

5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown? by v23, Gabriel referred back to vision Daniel had in Daniel 8. Which is of the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation, said by Gabriel to be in the time of the end.

6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9? Not by label, but by function of confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant the only covenant referred to in Daniel 9.

7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9? The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is not a peace covenant, peace treaty.

8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9? No peace covenant in Daniel 9 to break.

9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9? a non-issue question.

10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple? by the stoppage of the daily sacrifice, which can only be in effect when thee is a temple standing and the observances associated with it taking place.

Thanks for admitting that your doctrine is nowhere to be found in Daniel 9. It is time for Pretribbers to finally stop butchering this text. It forbids Pretrib.

Douggg · Dec 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Thanks for admitting that your doctrine is nowhere to be found in Daniel 9. It is time for Pretribbers to finally stop butchering this text. It forbids Pretrib.

The rapture could happen pre-trib (a misnomer for pre-70th week). But some of the interpretations associated with the timing, are amiss.

What is not known is the size of the interval of the rapture taking place ahead of the act by the Antichrist.

The interval could be days, weeks, years ahead of the Antichrist act. Which means the rapture could be pre-70th week.

BABerean2 · Dec 5, 2020

Douggg said:
The interval could be days, weeks, years ahead of the Antichrist act. Which means the rapture could be pre-70th week.

Not unless Paul was wrong in the verse below.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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Douggg · Dec 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Not unless Paul was wrong in the verse below.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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Do you understand the subject matter is about the timing of the rapture?

BABerean2 · Dec 5, 2020

Douggg said:
Do you understand the subject matter is about the timing of the rapture?

Yes. But you apparently do not, since Daniel's 70th week occurred during the first century.

See Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:34-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

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Douggg · Dec 5, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Yes. But you apparently do not, since Daniel's 70th week occurred during the first century.

See Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:34-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

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The rapture did not take place during the first century. Do you understand that the rapture has not taken place yet?

Timtofly · Dec 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
This verse does not support pre-trib whatsoever. I'm seeing many of you who believe in pre-trib quote that verse as one of the primary verses to support your view. And, yet, it doesn't support it at all.

Jesus was absolutely not saying anything about taking anyone off of the earth there. Why would He have said that in that verse when He said this here:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The Greek words translated as "keep" (tereo) and "from" (ek) are the same Greek words used in Rev 3:10 when Jesus talked about keeping them from the hour of trial. Clearly, for believers to be kept from (tereo ek) something has nothing to do with them being taken off of the earth. Did Jesus suddenly change His mind about this when John quoted Him in Revelation 3:10? Of course not. Revelation 3:10 supports post-trib, not pre-trib. Jesus Himself prayed that the Father would not take His followers out of the world, but that He instead would keep us from evil and tribulation while in the world.

The only point at which we would need to be taken off of the earth is when God's final wrath of fire upon the entire earth occurs when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:3-13).

All of us here, regardless of whether we are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib believe this. We all believe that one day we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This does not prove pre-trib whatsoever. Where we differ is in what we believe happens to unbelievers at that point. And passages like Matthew 24:29-51, 1 Thess 4:13-5:9, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 make it abundantly clear that unbelievers will all be killed at that time.

Again, we all believe this whether we're pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. That passage in and of itself does not mention when it happens in relation to a time of tribulation. But if you keep reading into 1 Thess 5 you can see that unbelievers will be killed on that same day.

I assume you are aware that Mark 13:24-27 is a parallel passage to this.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that Jesus says at this time the angels will gather His elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". So, Mark gives a bit of added info here that Matthew didn't include in his account of the Olivet Discourse.

So, who are the ones being gathered from heaven and who are the ones being gathered from earth?

You posted the following passage already:

1 Thess.4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The ones gathered from heaven will be those who are physically dead but their souls are in heaven. The souls of the dead in Christ will be coming with Jesus to unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. And then the ones gathered from the earth are obviously those "who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord". And this will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

You claim the last 1990 years was a heavenly city. How does one actually get to, or enjoy that city unless they leave the earth? It comes down as the New Jerusalem full, not empty.

Taking that verse out of context is worse than denying the verse used as a pre-trib text. Hebrews 11 and 12 is proof many OT who were part of the church and currently enjoying Paradise in their permanent bodies now. That the church will be spared that hour is already true. Do you have a verse that claims the whole church will be present on earth for that hour of trial? Much less experience it from the surface of the earth? You claim that every other theology is wrong but your own. None of these verses can prove a post trib Second Coming. All those waiting for the end of a 1268 day long 7th Trumpet is missing the whole point of Satan being front and center.

It is not a power trip issue with Satan. The church played the harlot, the church apostasized, and many souls were left in darkness and did not accept the invitation to join the church in the New Jerusalem, Paradise.
Romans 10:14-15

14 But how can they call on someone if they haven’t trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven’t heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him?
15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? — as the Tanakh puts it, “How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!”

It is true the church has been sent out many times over the last 1990 years. Many have obeyed God and gone around the world spreading the Gospel. But it is the church alive at the Second Coming that fails. Paul said there would be a great falling away. It is interesting that many pre-mill have become amil. If the falling away favored amil, then many amil would be turning to pre-mill in the millions.

Now the claim is that for the last 100 years the church has been taught wrong. Except from 100 to 150 years ago, there was the last great revivals that went around the globe. Satan answered back with plagues, famines, the great depression, and 2 major world wars back to back. Now the church has grown cold and many turning back to denying God's Word and false theology has crept in from all sides. Popularity does not signify truth. The carnal mind will seek out the easy route and accept Satan's lies over standing up for the Word of God.

The tribulation of those days is not the hour the church is going to escape from. Nor will the church escape the hour on the Cross. The hour on the Cross provided the Atonement or there would never be a church nor the Lamb's book of life of all those who reside in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:27

"Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."

The church is sealed, glorified, and complete before the Lamb's book of life is unsealed at the 7th Seal. No names can be added. At that point names will start being removed. The goats and tares removed. Those who worship Satan and receive the mark will be removed. Then at the GWT, more removed. Show me one verse that is proof a name will be added after the Cross, and after the 7th Seal. That is the only way to prove the order of events and the chronology of God's timing. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming. Can you prove the battle of Armageddon happens before the 7th Trumpet? Can you prove the 7th Trumpet is the one hour battle of Armageddon, the church is being delivered from? Is the one hour the church cannot leave earth the Cross or the battle of Armageddon? Can you prove the Cross and the battle of Armageddon is the same one hour event that ends with Satan being bound 1000 years?

Timtofly · Dec 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
But if you keep reading into 1 Thess 5 you can see that unbelievers will be killed on that same day.

Can you provide the verse that claims this?

Timtofly · Dec 5, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
You were mistaken about something simple and obvious like that, but I'm supposed to believe your claim about a supposed "fact" that the rapture is not the second coming? I don't think so. There is only one future coming of the Lord, not two.

Please tell me how you interpret the following passage:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When else will Jesus "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except on the day of the rapture? Do you agree? If so, then can you see here that on that same day He is coming to take vengeance on all of His enemies who have rejected His gospel?

Revelation 6:12-17

12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Where does it say people die in these verses?

Timtofly · Dec 5, 2020

jeffweedaman said:
What did Jesus say about the Pretrib gathering to himself? Chapter and verse please.
I cannot find anything. He did tell us everything right?
What I do find Jesus teaching is a gathering of his own after the trib.

Mk 13
19 For those days will be such a time of tribulation as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will again. 20 And if the Lord had not shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Look, there He is’; do not believe it; 22 for false christs and false prophets will arise, and will provide signs and wonders, in order to mislead, if possible, the elect.
23 But beware; I have told you everything in advance.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.

This is what Paul is teaching in 1 thess 4...,

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Are you saying there is currently no tribulation at all today? Is covid 19 a normal occurrence that happens every year? If Jesus returned this minute, would it not follow the tribulation of those days referred to the year of covid19? You never defined this tribulation of those days? Are two world wars and 2 nukes not tribulation of those days? Which tribulation should not be before the Second Coming? Revelation 6:7-17

7 When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!”
8 I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Sh’ol followed behind him. They were given authority to kill one-quarter of the world by war, by famine, by plagues and with the wild animals of the earth.
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.
12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

If almost 2 billion people die between now and 2021, would that be enough tribulation of those days for your theology to work?

That is still not God's judgment of the Trumpets and Thunders. And after that Satan's 42 months and the 7 vials? At which point did John say God on the throne and the Lamb come to earth?

sovereigngrace · Dec 5, 2020

Douggg said:
The rapture could happen pre-trib (a misnomer for pre-70th week). But some of the interpretations associated with the timing, are amiss.

What is not known is the size of the interval of the rapture taking place ahead of the act by the Antichrist.

The interval could be days, weeks, years ahead of the Antichrist act. Which means the rapture could be pre-70th week.

View attachment 290088

The Bible does not say that. Every drawing you present is anti-biblical.

Timtofly · Dec 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

Indoctrinated is a term a cult would use, not the church.

Indoctrinate: teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Notice the word uncritically. That means without thinking or raising a thoughtful objection.

There is no objection to the fact the Second Coming will change the world.

It is the total disregard to many events listed in the book of Revelation. There is no rightly dividing the Word of Truth. It is combining many events into a single event that is the issue. The Second Coming is not post 7th Trumpet. Why does theology teach that lie? Yes all will be dead when the last second of the 7th Trumpet is heard. Adam's descendants will be no more. But the 7th Trumpet last for days, not nano-seconds.

Nano-second: one billionth of a second.

Also the 7th Trumpet has 7 Thunders and 6 Trumpets that precede it. If Satan gets 42 months it splits the days in half of the 7th Trumpet. Instead of 8 days, Sunday to Sunday, it goes an additional 42 months.

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

It does not say, nano-seconds. It does not say seconds. It does not say minutes. It does not say hours. It does not say years. It says days. Not the days after the 7th Trumpet. Not the days leading up to the 7th Trumpet. It says the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

The 70th week of years is the earthly ministry of Christ and the time Jacob is in trouble for not holding to a Covenant. The 7th Trumpet is a week of days celebrating the end of this earthly ministry and the completion of the Covenant. Unless the Covenant is not completed. The church did not hold up her end of the Covenant just like Jacob failed to hold up his part of the Covenant. That is the only reason why Satan would be granted 42 months. The vineyard was taken away from Jacob and given to the church. The church gave the vinyard to the Lord of the vineyard short of the harvest. Then Satan is granted the vineyard for the last 42 months. Actually time taken away from the church. Time the church will never get back. The battle of Armageddon is the last harvest of the vineyard. But not a harvest, only the pressing of the grapes in the winepress of God's wrath. If Israel faded away while the church took over, does the church really deserve to spend time with Satan in his months of control? How effective are foolish virgins that do not even have the Holy Spirit, but some unclean spirits guiding them? Is this really an endurance one wants, or victory in Christ at the Second Coming at the opening of the 6th Seal?

Christ will spend the last of His earthly ministry on the earth. It is the time of separation for the sheep and goats, the wheat and tares. But the gleanings not gathered are for Satan to sift. It was not the Lamb Who failed. It was the church and the falling away from Truth that failed.

No, we do not know when the time will be up. If the church had time during Satan's 42 months to earnestly win lost souls, they would know to the day and hour the time of the battle of Armageddon. Why is this hard to grasp? The church and Second Coming have to happen before The Lamb is on earth in the final harvest. Jesus Christ the Lamb has to come before the earthly ministry, not after already spending months already here in secret. Matthew 25:31-35 happens after the Second Coming in Matthew 24.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats.
33 The ‘sheep’ he will place at his right hand and the ‘goats’ at his left.

Matthew 24:29 is the 6th Seal. Matthew 25 is the Trumpets. The Second Coming is an event that last many months, not nano-seconds.

BABerean2 · Dec 6, 2020

Douggg said:
The rapture did not take place during the first century. Do you understand that the rapture has not taken place yet?

I do understand that fact, and I also understand Daniel's 70th week has nothing to do with the future gathering of the Church at Christ's return.

You on the otherhand...

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BABerean2 · Dec 6, 2020

Timtofly said:
Matthew 24:29 is the 6th Seal. Matthew 25 is the Trumpets. The Second Coming is an event that last many months, not nano-seconds.

I have heard some strange claims on this forum, but the one above is one of those at the top of the list.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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robycop3 · Dec 6, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
This verse does not support pre-trib whatsoever. I'm seeing many of you who believe in pre-trib quote that verse as one of the primary verses to support your view. And, yet, it doesn't support it at all.

Jesus was absolutely not saying anything about taking anyone off of the earth there. Why would He have said that in that verse when He said this here:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The Greek words translated as "keep" (tereo) and "from" (ek) are the same Greek words used in Rev 3:10 when Jesus talked about keeping them from the hour of trial. Clearly, for believers to be kept from (tereo ek) something has nothing to do with them being taken off of the earth. Did Jesus suddenly change His mind about this when John quoted Him in Revelation 3:10? Of course not. Revelation 3:10 supports post-trib, not pre-trib. Jesus Himself prayed that the Father would not take His followers out of the world, but that He instead would keep us from evil and tribulation while in the world.

The only point at which we would need to be taken off of the earth is when God's final wrath of fire upon the entire earth occurs when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:3-13).

All of us here, regardless of whether we are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib believe this. We all believe that one day we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This does not prove pre-trib whatsoever. Where we differ is in what we believe happens to unbelievers at that point. And passages like Matthew 24:29-51, 1 Thess 4:13-5:9, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 make it abundantly clear that unbelievers will all be killed at that time.

Again, we all believe this whether we're pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. That passage in and of itself does not mention when it happens in relation to a time of tribulation. But if you keep reading into 1 Thess 5 you can see that unbelievers will be killed on that same day.

I assume you are aware that Mark 13:24-27 is a parallel passage to this.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice here that Jesus says at this time the angels will gather His elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". So, Mark gives a bit of added info here that Matthew didn't include in his account of the Olivet Discourse.

So, who are the ones being gathered from heaven and who are the ones being gathered from earth?

You posted the following passage already:

1 Thess.4:13-18 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The ones gathered from heaven will be those who are physically dead but their souls are in heaven. The souls of the dead in Christ will be coming with Jesus to unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. And then the ones gathered from the earth are obviously those "who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord". And this will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days".

First, the souls of all the dead are in hades now, either paradise or 'torments', not heaven or hell. Acts 2:34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand

Now, what better way to keep His saints on earth from the great trib than to "rapture" them? Given the number of Christians on earth, there'd be mucho opposition to the marka the beast, etc. With them gone, there'd be next-to-no such opposition.

At the rapture, Jesus will call the souls of the dead saints from paradise first, then, the still-living saints, to Him. He won't come down to them.

There'll be a few on earth who'll realize what happened, & they'll be the 'trib saints', along with the 144K Israelis & the 2 special witnesses.

robycop3 · Dec 6, 2020

Timtofly said:
How do you fit the 5th and 6th Seal into this scenario of yours?

Jesus describes the 6th Seal events as the Second Coming. The Second Coming has to happen so Jesus Christ the Lamb will be on earth to finish His earthly ministry, Jesus taught as the final harvest.

No, those are some things just before His return, at the end of the great trib.

I wrote another scenario years ago suggesting that the events of the trib could be brought on by the approach of another planet to earth, so men wouldn't attribute it to God. Years ago, people useta observe the sun, especially solar eclipses, thru sackcloth, & the moon appears the color of blood in the vicinity of a volcanic eruption or large forest fire. And "falling stars", are, of course, meteors. the approach of another planet to earth would certainly cause some people's hearts to stop or fail as described in Luke 21, as they'd believe that planet was gonna collide with the earth.

OF COURSE, I don't believe that scenario is set in stone ! I only believe it's POSSIBLE.

Sportzz fanzz, YOU can escape it, whatever it may be, by coming to Jesus in repentance for sins, belief, faith, & submission, calling on Him by name to save you & add you to His kingdom. If you believe in your heart that He is the Son of God, that He died to take the penalty for your sins, & that His Father permanently raised Him from the dead after 3 days, HE WILL SAVE YOU !

BABerean2 · Dec 6, 2020

robycop3 said:
First, the souls of all the dead are in hades now, either paradise or 'torments', not heaven or hell. Acts 2:34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand

David's body is in the ground.

Mat_10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev_6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

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Spiritual Jew · Dec 6, 2020

Timtofly said:
You need to view all of creation as physical. All of creation was created as one. The angels are physically created beings just like the sons of God.

That is clearly not true. You believe many things that no one else does. You can't be taken seriously because of that. How can physical beings possess humans?

Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Spiritual Jew · Dec 6, 2020

robycop3 said:
No, those are some things just before His return, at the end of the great trib.

I wrote another scenario years ago suggesting that the events of the trib could be brought on by the approach of another planet to earth, so men wouldn't attribute it to God. Years ago, people useta observe the sun, especially solar eclipses, thru sackcloth, & the moon appears the color of blood in the vicinity of a volcanic eruption or large forest fire. And "falling stars", are, of course, meteors. the approach of another planet to earth would certainly cause some people's hearts to stop or fail as described in Luke 21, as they'd believe that planet was gonna collide with the earth.

That's quite a scenario you dreamed up there. Sorry, but planets don't move through space.

The book of Revelation tells us specifically what prophetic stars represent and it's not meteors.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born....9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Compare the above verse to this one:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 6, 2020

Douggg said:
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9? there is no 3rd coming claim by anyone.

Why are you denying what you believe? All who believe in a pre-trib or an any time trib rapture believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming of the Lord.

We know that Jesus obviously came from heaven once already long ago. And I know you believe the following two passages are referring to two different events. Both refer to His coming.

Here is the second coming of your doctrine:

1 Thess 4:14 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And here is the third coming of your doctrine:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

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