A CHEAP IMITATION OF WORLD ORTHODOXY IS BEING BUILT BEFORE OUR EYES

Michie

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Recent events in Cyprus bear witness to a fact that is unfortunately no longer in doubt: Pan-Orthodox unity no longer exists. Moreover, the Orthodox world is facing a new and very dangerous schism. Its basis is the thirst for individual power, and its main tool is the willingness to ignore the canons, the truth, and the conscience in the process of achieving this goal.

A defective and malicious copy of world Orthodoxy is now being built before our eyes. In this parallel system, such aspects as the perversion of the canons, the legalization of schismatics, concelebration with people who have no valid ordination, and the trampling of the conciliar format of Church governance are considered natural and normal.

That is, everything that until only recently seemed unthinkable and impossible.

But behind this reality, new landmarks are already looming. We are talking about the further
erosion of
Orthodox ecclesiology, open concelebration with representatives of other confessions, agreement with the imposition of LGBT culture, and so on.

Do the leaders who are guiding their Churches into this cheap imitation of world Orthodoxy understand that it will be simply impossible to avoid further decline? After all, if you’re already jumping into the abyss, you certainly won’t be able to stop on the way down.

Do the leaders of these Churches understand that taking part in big geopolitical and political games has its price? For example, will they be able to refuse certain external forces if they demand that they guarantee Church support for the [URL='https://orthochristian.com/131588.html']promotion of LGBT interests? Will they have enough courage to say “no?” I doubt it very much, given how some primates have already caved on the question of recognizing the schism.[/URL]

Continued below.
A Cheap Imitation of World Orthodoxy is Being Built Before Our Eyes. Met. Anthony (Pakanich)
 

chevyontheriver

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Recent events in Cyprus bear witness to a fact that is unfortunately no longer in doubt: Pan-Orthodox unity no longer exists. Moreover, the Orthodox world is facing a new and very dangerous schism. Its basis is the thirst for individual power, and its main tool is the willingness to ignore the canons, the truth, and the conscience in the process of achieving this goal.

A defective and malicious copy of world Orthodoxy is now being built before our eyes. In this parallel system, such aspects as the perversion of the canons, the legalization of schismatics, concelebration with people who have no valid ordination, and the trampling of the conciliar format of Church governance are considered natural and normal.

That is, everything that until only recently seemed unthinkable and impossible.

But behind this reality, new landmarks are already looming. We are talking about the further
erosion of
Orthodox ecclesiology, open concelebration with representatives of other confessions, agreement with the imposition of LGBT culture, and so on.

Do the leaders who are guiding their Churches into this cheap imitation of world Orthodoxy understand that it will be simply impossible to avoid further decline? After all, if you’re already jumping into the abyss, you certainly won’t be able to stop on the way down.

Do the leaders of these Churches understand that taking part in big geopolitical and political games has its price? For example, will they be able to refuse certain external forces if they demand that they guarantee Church support for the promotion of LGBT interests? Will they have enough courage to say “no?” I doubt it very much, given how some primates have already caved on the question of recognizing the schism.

Continued below.
A Cheap Imitation of World Orthodoxy is Being Built Before Our Eyes. Met. Anthony (Pakanich)
Would the Metropolitan be complaining about Orthodox being too comfortable with Catholics?

The sad thing is that the cultural juggernaut will steamroll them and us if we don't have the sense to stand together fast. What we will be left with is a tiny remnant of Orthodoxy and a tiny remnant of Catholicism. Oh well.
 
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Markie Boy

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Would the Metropolitan be complaining about Orthodox being too comfortable with Catholics?

The sad thing is that the cultural juggernaut will steamroll them and us if we don't have the sense to stand together fast. What we will be left with is a tiny remnant of Orthodoxy and a tiny remnant of Catholicism. Oh well.

A massive amount of wisdom there Chevy! I honestly believe God wants unity among his children. I think the only way it will ever happen is by a massive crushing of all of us. There are things we are divided over that really don’t have any bearing on salvation, they’re just talking points and complex theology stuff, That in the end probably doesn’t matter that much.

I have a feeling we are going to find out.
 
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chevyontheriver

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A massive amount of wisdom there Chevy! I honestly believe God wants unity among his children. I think the only way it will ever happen is by a massive crushing of all of us. There are things we are divided over that really don’t have any bearing on salvation, they’re just talking points and complex theology stuff, That in the end probably doesn’t matter that much.

I have a feeling we are going to find out.
We're going to find out. If your church was 90% full before Covid, the post-Covid numbers might be 25%. If your church was only half full before Covid you will be lucky to have it 10% full. Parish incomes will be down, but not that much as the stayers were already the givers. But parish budgets will be very tight. Many parishes will be consolidated with priests doing Sunday marathons from parish to parish to parish, We had a fair crop of JPII priests but I can't see any big crop of Francis priests coming. Who wants to be associated with McCarrick these days? So we will have some good orthodox JPII priests, led by boomer bishops, expected to run themselves ragged, and be politically correct in the process.

And the Orthodox? Their xenophobia will protect them from Catholics, but their caesaropapism will make them capitulate morally wherever the State insists they do. Not all will go along. It's going to be sad watching them splinter into a confused mess just a little less splintered than Protestantism.

You think your faith is going to thrive? Do you think your faith will even survive? And if it does, will you be able to pass it on to any of your children? We will get a smaller Church, as pope Benedict saw in prophecy. It will be a more faithful smaller Church. But it's going to cost souls in the process of getting there. Maybe mine. Maybe yours. If the Orthodox and Catholics could face this together we might do a little better. We wouldn't do any worse, that's for sure. But it ain't gonna happen. We are divided by stubbornness. The theological issues are trivial compared to that stubbornness. So we get to see how it looks when we hang separately because we aren't going to hang together.
 
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Markie Boy

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We're going to find out. If your church was 90% full before Covid, the post-Covid numbers might be 25%. If your church was only half full before Covid you will be lucky to have it 10% full. Parish incomes will be down, but not that much as the stayers were already the givers. But parish budgets will be very tight. Many parishes will be consolidated with priests doing Sunday marathons from parish to parish to parish, We had a fair crop of JPII priests but I can't see any big crop of Francis priests coming. Who wants to be associated with McCarrick these days? So we will have some good orthodox JPII priests, led by boomer bishops, expected to run themselves ragged, and be politically correct in the process.

And the Orthodox? Their xenophobia will protect them from Catholics, but their caesaropapism will make them capitulate morally wherever the State insists they do. Not all will go along. It's going to be sad watching them splinter into a confused mess just a little less splintered than Protestantism.

You think your faith is going to thrive? Do you think your faith will even survive? And if it does, will you be able to pass it on to any of your children? We will get a smaller Church, as pope Benedict saw in prophecy. It will be a more faithful smaller Church. But it's going to cost souls in the process of getting there. Maybe mine. Maybe yours. If the Orthodox and Catholics could face this together we might do a little better. We wouldn't do any worse, that's for sure. But it ain't gonna happen. We are divided by stubbornness. The theological issues are trivial compared to that stubbornness. So we get to see how it looks when we hang separately because we aren't going to hang together.

Those have been my thoughts exactly! The theological issues are nearly meaningless, compared to the stubbornness. If one reads Paul’s writings he gives more liberty in many cases then we seem to today. He held people to higher moral standard than we do today as well.

It’s like our churches have it backwards, focusing on the rulebook and not the actual game. Each side arguing that their rulebook is the right one, well both sides are losing the game.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Those have been my thoughts exactly! The theological issues are nearly meaningless, compared to the stubbornness. If one reads Paul’s writings he gives more liberty in many cases then we seem to today. He held people to higher moral standard than we do today as well.

It’s like our churches have it backwards, focusing on the rulebook and not the actual game. Each side arguing that their rulebook is the right one, well both sides are losing the game.
A rulebook is important. More important is doctrine. Rulebooks can be adapted if people want to try to do that. Doctrines can be understood more profoundly without abandoning them. It SHOULD work out. But it won't. I was once an ecumenical optimist. Not no more. I still pray for unity, but it's a somber prayer.

My concern in all of this is losing souls? What is your plan to persevere? How do you know you will? Those people who used to be in the pews with you - where are they now? We could be next. Perseverance is not guaranteed. And it's all uphill from now on.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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A rulebook is important. More important is doctrine. Rulebooks can be adapted if people want to try to do that. Doctrines can be understood more profoundly without abandoning them. It SHOULD work out. But it won't. I was once an ecumenical optimist. Not no more. I still pray for unity, but it's a somber prayer.

My concern in all of this is losing souls? What is your plan to persevere? How do you know you will? Those people who used to be in the pews with you - where are they now? We could be next. Perseverance is not guaranteed. And it's all uphill from now on.



The only thing we will have is Christ Jesus. We will have to get by on fear and trembling. That is all we have.
 
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prodromos

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Would the Metropolitan be complaining about Orthodox being too comfortable with Catholics?
No, he is referring to the EP's decision to bring unrepentant schismatics from the Ukraine under his umbrella and the fact that another Metropolitan has commemorated the so called 'patriarch' of this false Ukranian church. It has nothing to do with Rome.
 
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chevyontheriver

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No, he is referring to the EP's decision to bring unrepentant schismatics from the Ukraine under his umbrella and the fact that another Metropolitan has commemorated the so called 'patriarch' of this false Ukranian church. It has nothing to do with Rome.
It looks like a fissiparous hot mess.
 
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Michie

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Well, in this regard the Pope is adhering to a traditional Vatican policy:

Pope Francis told the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Monday that he is confident that Catholics and Orthodox Christians will attain full communion.

In a message to Bartholomew I on the Feast of St. Andrew, Pope Francis praised the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s efforts to promote Christian unity.

“We can thank God that relations between the Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate have grown much over the past century, even as we continue to yearn for the goal of the restoration of full communion expressed through participation at the same Eucharistic altar,” he wrote.

“Although obstacles remain, I am confident that by walking together in mutual love and pursuing theological dialogue, we will reach that goal.”

Go here to read the rest. The Orthodox aren’t interested and Rome keeps coming to them hat in hand.

PopeWatch: Unity
 
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prodromos

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Michie

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From the Catholic viewpoint the Orthodox have no heresy to repent of. From the Orthodox viewpoint the Catholic Church does have heresy to repent of.
Well I can see the reluctance if we want to reunite and we are considered heretical in the Orthodox pov. Thanks for the info.
 
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Markie Boy

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From the Catholic viewpoint the Orthodox have no heresy to repent of. From the Orthodox viewpoint the Catholic Church does have heresy to repent of.

Just a fair historical assessment - if Rome were willing to return to pre-Schism operations, I would say they are coming hat in hand.

I'm just not sure they are willing to remove the doctrine of Papal Infallibility, and return to a final court of appeals status. It used to be Rome wouldn't get involved unless appealed to. Also, bishops would be appointed locally - not by a single head of the world appointing bishops around the globe.

Please consider this - all the bishops that covered up massive corruption, and we can do nothing at the local level. If we could they could be removed by those that they failed to serve.

Given that Rome has no interest in surrendering these powers and going back to pre-Schism, it seems their idea of reunion is - submit to us and we can reunite. I think if we want things to improve, we have to address the facts.
 
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