Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Douggg said:

Because it is great tribulation that will test everyone on the earth at that time,

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So, why would anyone need to be taken off the earth when the whole idea is for people to be tested while on the earth?

and if not limited in duration, no flesh will survive.

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You are referencing Matthew 24:22 here, but that is referring to what happened in 70 AD in Jerusalem. You do understand that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was asked two different questions with one being when would the temple buildings be destroyed, right? He answered that question in Matthew 24:15-22 (also Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24).

And it will be a time when the vials of God's wrath is poured out upon the world which will be in greatest rebellion against God in human history.

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Until His final wrath of sending fire upon the entire earth on the day Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-12) there will be no reason for Him to take anyone off the earth. His wrath has come down many times in the past without the need to take His people off the earth.

And also during that same time, Satan will be cast down to earth having great wrath.

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He was cast down to earth long ago when Christ ascended to heaven. But even if that was a future event why would any Christian need to be taken off the earth to avoid that? We have been dealing with Satan's wrath for a long time (he roars like a lion seeking who he may devour, remember?) with no need to be taken off the earth to avoid it.

Jaxxi said:

Are there still churches in Philadelphia? How do we know that this isn't referring to the churches of America? Philadelphia was the first capital in America, and we know these are to end times churches, so maybe the church hasn't gotten their reward yet? It is very possible since this is end times prophesy. Where is the old Philadelphia?

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Okay, let's be reasonable here. You do understand that the churches Jesus was addressing in Revelation actually existed back then, don't you? The seven churches that Jesus addressed were actual churches that existed in the first century within the old province of Asia (not to be confused with the continent of Asia). There is no basis whatsoever to try to change it to be addressing churches in America or anything like that.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

You think it's all end times prophecy as in still all in the future, but maybe you missed this verse:

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus told John to write about things which he had seen, which meant things that happened in the past (Christ's birth and ascension are mentioned in Rev 12:5, for example), and things which are, which meant things that were happening at the time, and the things which shall be hereafter, which meant things that would be happening from that point on. So, to think that the book of Revelation is only about things that will happen in the future is simply not the case.

Some happened in the past before John wrote the book, some were happening when he wrote the book (such as things happening in those churches at that time), and things happened after he wrote the book and are ongoing since then and some things haven't happened yet such as the second coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the judgment and the appearing of the new heavens and new earth.

sovereigngrace said:

Where does it say that Antichrist cannot come to power while the church is still on the earth? What has Pakistan to do with antichrist?

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And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18

Meaning that while the church is still in the world Satan will not have authority to do what he wants.

The rest is my personal belief from study and interpretation.

Spiritual Jew said:

Where is your evidence for that? Which fallen angels don't fit that description given there? They all do. Yet, they clearly have not been inactive. You are missing the figurative language there. They are only bound figuratively in the sense that they are reserved for punishment on judgment day and there's nothing they can do about that. But, that doesn't mean they are unable to do anything in the meantime.

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There is no reason, based on scripture, to deem these as being bound "figuratively". If you study the scriptures you will find who these angels are. They are not all the fallen angels. The scripture doesn't say anything like that. These are angels that "left their first estate" spoken of in Jude as well.

My evidence is from God's word.

sovereigngrace said:

You expressed personal opinion without showing support. If he is on earth and he is physical where is he tonight?

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Satan is an angelic being. A fallen one. An evil one. One that goes to and fro looking to devour. If you want to see evidence of him... just take a look around. You will not, likely, see him. You cannot see the wind but you can see it's work.

John writes:

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

This is proof that Satan will be bound for 1000 years. During this time people will live undeceived by him. However, in the end, he will be loosed to deceive again and some will still follow him.

This is after the tribulation. Proof of this is the simple fact that those that rule with Christ during this 1000 years are those beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast during the tribulation.

You cannot refuse the mark until the mark is here. It is not here. The tribulation has not come and the millennial age is not happening now. The timing is wrong as explained below:


Revelation 20

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya]">[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

It is clear, by this scripture, that first the tribulation, the beast and the mark.. then the millennial reign of Christ.

Jaxxi said:

And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18

Meaning that while the church is still in the world Satan will not have authority to do what he wants.

The rest is my personal belief from study and interpretation.

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Very good proof of pre tribulation rapture. The only reason that Satan has not prevailed on this earth.. is because of the church.

The bible states that the restrainer will be removed before the tribulation. Who is the restrainer? Is it the Church, Christians, Christ's bride... or the Holy Spirit. Either way, it is removed, then the tribulation.

Christ also said that He would send a comforter to the disciples and Christians. This was the Holy Spirit. Christ also said that He would never leave us or forsake us.

Unless He lied, the church will not be forsaken and left to the wrath of God. It will be removed, along with the one who restrains. Then the tribulation, the wrath of God on this earth will take place, then the millennial reign of Christ.

Spiritual Jew said:

So, why would anyone need to be taken off the earth when the whole idea is for people to be tested while on the earth?

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Not tested for faith. The world as a whole, all life on it, animals, humans, obliterated unless the duration of the great tribulation is limited.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are referencing Matthew 24:22 here, but that is referring to what happened in 70 AD in Jerusalem. You do understand that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was asked two different questions with one being when would the temple buildings be destroyed, right? He answered that question in Matthew 24:15-22 (also Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24).

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Luke 21 is a parallel to the Olivet discourse, and not the Olivet discourse itself. And all life on earth was not threatened to be extinct in 70 AD.

Spiritual Jew said:

Until His final wrath of sending fire upon the entire earth on the day Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-12) there will be no reason for Him to take anyone off the earth. His wrath has come down many times in the past without the need to take His people off the earth.

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The rapture is the grace and mercy of God, and fulfillment of His Word and promise.

1Thessalonians5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Which is what Christians are supposed to be doing.

Spiritual Jew said:

He was cast down to earth long ago when Christ ascended to heaven. But even if that was a future event why would any Christian need to be taken off the earth to avoid that? We have been dealing with Satan's wrath for a long time (he roars like a lion seeking who he may devour, remember?) with no need to be taken off the earth to avoid it.

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Satan has not being cast down to earth, restricted to only earth, yet, as Satan is called the prince the power of the air.

Satan will have only a short time left of a time/times/half time. Which will be the third woe of Revelation 8:13 - which you ignore.

Have the kings of the earth seen Satan yet, uncovered in physical self?

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Satan will be incarnating the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast during the second half of the seven years. And will be exposed when Jesus Returns.

Jaxxi said:

And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18

Meaning that while the church is still in the world Satan will not have authority to do what he wants.

The rest is my personal belief from study and interpretation.

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All you have presented is opinion. When challenged, you are unable to address the many holes in Pretrib. Do not take it personal. No Pretrib can. It is a man-made doctrine cobbled together in a day where people just accepted what they were taught.

You presented Revelation 3:10 and Luke 17:34-37 as evidence in support of Pretrib, even though they make no mention of your doctrine. Other posters rebutted your claims and yet you failed to acknowledge their posts.

How about showing us Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed a 7 yr tribulation followed by a 3rd coming instead of voicing personal opinion?

I believe the rapture will occur shortly before the antichrist commits the "abomination of desolation" in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem. He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people worldwide that most people will accept. But a few will realize what happened & act accordingly, coming to Jesus in repentance & belief. Those "trib saints" will hafta undergo the great trib, & many won't survive it. They'll also be hunted by the beast's religious police, who will come after anyone not having his mark, nor worshipping him.

But no; the rapture is NOT Jesus' return. In the rapture, Jesus will call the saints to Him; He won't come down to earth to them. I believe that only those being raptured will see Jesus at that time, while His return will be seen by all, as He said.

Scripture mentions only ONE MORE return of Jesus, not two or more. He obviously didn't return in 70 AD as preterists believe, & He won't come to earth in the rapture.

JacksBratt said:

Very good proof of pre tribulation rapture. The only reason that Satan has not prevailed on this earth.. is because of the church.

The bible states that the restrainer will be removed before the tribulation. Who is the restrainer? Is it the Church, Christians, Christ's bride... or the Holy Spirit. Either way, it is removed, then the tribulation.

Christ also said that He would send a comforter to the disciples and Christians. This was the Holy Spirit. Christ also said that He would never leave us or forsake us.

Unless He lied, the church will not be forsaken and left to the wrath of God. It will be removed, along with the one who restrains. Then the tribulation, the wrath of God on this earth will take place, then the millennial reign of Christ.

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Again, your teachers have taught you wrong. The Holy Spirit is ever present. The Church will be removed at the end, like in Noah's day and in Sodom, whereupon, there is immediate and wholesale destruction. No one survives His one-and-only coming.

How about actually showing us one Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed a 7 yr tribulation followed by a 3rd coming instead of voicing personal opinion?

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

JacksBratt said:

There is no reason, based on scripture, to deem these as being bound "figuratively". If you study the scriptures you will find who these angels are. They are not all the fallen angels. The scripture doesn't say anything like that. These are angels that "left their first estate" spoken of in Jude as well.

My evidence is from God's word.

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All of the fallen angels left their first estate. What evidence are you talking about? You didn't present any.

Can you explain in detail how spiritual beings can be literally chained up?

robycop3 said:

I believe the rapture will occur shortly before the antichrist commits the "abomination of desolation" in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem. He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people worldwide that most people will accept.

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Please show me the scripture which talks about that explanation and also which talks about all the chaos, destruction and devastation that would result from millions of people disappearing all at once.

But a few will realize what happened & act accordingly, coming to Jesus in repentance & belief. Those "trib saints" will hafta undergo the great trib, & many won't survive it. They'll also be hunted by the beast's religious police, who will come after anyone not having his mark, nor worshipping him.

But no; the rapture is NOT Jesus' return. In the rapture, Jesus will call the saints to Him; He won't come down to earth to them. I believe that only those being raptured will see Jesus at that time, while His return will be seen by all, as He said.

Scripture mentions only ONE MORE return of Jesus, not two or more. He obviously didn't return in 70 AD as preterists believe, & He won't come to earth in the rapture.

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Please tell me how you interpret the following passage:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Is verse 10 not a reference to what will happen when the rapture occurs? Of course it is. Paul said that on that same day Jesus "in flaming fire" will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Why do you separate our being gathered to Christ and the destruction of Christ's enemies into two events when scripture does not do that?

robycop3 said:

I believe the rapture will occur shortly before the antichrist commits the "abomination of desolation" in the new temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem. He will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people worldwide that most people will accept. But a few will realize what happened & act accordingly, coming to Jesus in repentance & belief. Those "trib saints" will hafta undergo the great trib, & many won't survive it. They'll also be hunted by the beast's religious police, who will come after anyone not having his mark, nor worshipping him.

But no; the rapture is NOT Jesus' return. In the rapture, Jesus will call the saints to Him; He won't come down to earth to them. I believe that only those being raptured will see Jesus at that time, while His return will be seen by all, as He said.

Scripture mentions only ONE MORE return of Jesus, not two or more. He obviously didn't return in 70 AD as preterists believe, & He won't come to earth in the rapture.

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Instead of voicing your opinions (which is the Pretrib pattern), how about presenting hard Scripture to support your theories.

sovereigngrace said:

All avoidance. This is classic Pretrib. It has no origin in the sacred text. Your avoidance proves that.

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I would also point out that you are avoiding talking about your present theology that counters mine. So you are not immune to your judgement of me. I will not respond to your baiting as you might get others to.

As I've previously posted. You said that you were formerly of pre-trib rapture belief. Therefore you are already familiar with the theology.

So since you are so eager to criticize it, then tear it apart all that you want. Show everyone that you can make a strong case against the ptr theology. Compare it to your alleged superior theology.

Anyone who would be good at it doesn't need a direct opponent.

But there is something disturbingly hostile about you wanting to directly personally attack anyone who happens to uphold that theology. It would seem then that that is your main goal.

I make it a practice not to engage in the pretense of discussing Bible topics with someone who uses tactics as yours.

fwGod said:

I would also point out that you are avoiding talking about your present theology that counters mine. So you are not immune to your judgement of me. I will not respond to your baiting as you might get others to.

As I've previously posted. You said that you were formerly of pre-trib rapture belief. Therefore you are already familiar with the theology.

So since you are so eager to criticize it, then tear it apart all that you want. Show everyone that you can make a strong case against the ptr theology. Compare it to your alleged superior theology.

Anyone who would be good at it doesn't need a direct opponent.

But there is something disturbingly hostile about you wanting to directly personally attack anyone who happens to uphold that theology. It would seem then that that is your main goal.

I make it a practice not to engage in the pretense of discussing Bible topics with someone who uses tactics as yours.

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Ok, let's start with #63. I outlined the Amil position.

For the record: my rebuttals above are directed at Pretrib not Pretribbers.

Spiritual Jew said:

All of the fallen angels left their first estate. What evidence are you talking about? You didn't present any.

Can you explain in detail how spiritual beings can be literally chained up?

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There are angels that Jude and Peter are talking about are not the collective 1/3 of all angels that followed Satan. That would be absurd.

These angels are those spoke of in Genesis 6. Those are the angels that "left their first estate" and took human women and "knew" them biblically. This offense brought about the Nephilime and was such a deplorable action that they were chained in Tartarus.

JacksBratt said:

There are angels that Jude and Peter are talking about are not the collective 1/3 of all angels that followed Satan. That would be absurd.

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Why is that? It's not absurd at all if you properly understand that their binding is figurative rather than a literal binding the way a physical being can be bound by a chain.

These angels are those spoke of in Genesis 6. Those are the angels that "left their first estate" and took human women and "knew" them biblically. This offense brought about the Nephilime and was such a deplorable action that they were chained in Tartarus.

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Where is your evidence for that? I see nothing but an opinion here with no scripture to back it up. Show me the scripture which teaches that the angels Peter and Jude talked about as being in everlasting chains were not all of the fallen angels, but rather just some that were mentioned in Genesis 6. I'm pretty sure there is no such scripture.

What Peter and Jude do tell us is that it is the angels who "sinned" and "left their first estate" that are in everlasting chains and I'm not aware of any fallen angel who doesn't fit that description.

Also, you seem to have overlooked one of my questions, so I'll ask it again. Can you explain in detail how spiritual beings can be literally chained up?

sovereigngrace said:

Again, your teachers have taught you wrong. The Holy Spirit is ever present. The Church will be removed at the end, like in Noah's day and in Sodom, whereupon, there is immediate and wholesale destruction. No one survives His one-and-only coming.

How about actually showing us one Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed a 7 yr tribulation followed by a 3rd coming instead of voicing personal opinion?

The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

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Christ stated that the end will be "as it was in the days of Noah". He also stated that the end will be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Never does He compare it to the time of the Exodus when the Jews were present during the wrath of God.

In the case of both Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah, the innocent, righteous, people were removed from the area of wrath. This will be the same in the end when the Rapture will take the church from the earth. Also, the "one who restrains" will also be removed.

There is no third coming. The second coming is when Christ returns and stands on the Mount of Olives. He does not do that at the "catching up". At that time He meets us in the air. Not on the earth.

As for a scripture that says "The rapture comes before the Tribulation" There isn't one. This topic has been argued ad nausium by people of far greater theological knowledge than me... from both views.

So, it is my belief that the Rapture will come before the tribulation. One fact that supports this is the simple fact that the entire population of the world will be demanded to take the mark of the beast or they will not be able to buy or sell... under penalty of decapitation.

So, how many Christians do you think can survive 7 years, at the longest or 3.5 years at the shortest.. without food, travel, shelter, income, or anything like that.. all the while everyone hates them and is right ready to turn them in for death..

This would mean that those who are "caught up" after the "dead in Christ who rise first" may be nobody. Nobody would be left.

The scripture also says to comfort each other with these words. Are you comforted... knowing that all your loved ones, all your Christian friends... your grandmother, your 12 year old daughter... is going to face decapitation?

Spiritual Jew said:

Why is that?

Where is your evidence for that? I see nothing but an opinion here with no scripture to back it up. Show me the scripture which teaches that the angels Peter and Jude talked about as being in everlasting chains were not all of the fallen angels, but rather just some that were mentioned in Genesis 6. I'm pretty sure there is no such scripture.

What Peter and Jude do tell us is that it is the angels who "sinned" and "left their first estate" that are in everlasting chains and I'm not aware of any fallen angel who doesn't fit that description.

Also, you seem to have overlooked one of my questions, so I'll ask it again. Can you explain in detail how spiritual beings can be literally chained up?

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If you are not familiar with Genesis 6, I would invite you to watch this video. It is by Rob Skiba who believes in Post Trib rapture.. I disagree with Rob on this.. and some other things. However this is as it goes with many Christians.. not many believe all the same things. I am a solid believer of his take on Genesis 6. This may help you with who the "angles who left their first estate" are.

JacksBratt said:

Christ stated that the end will be "as it was in the days of Noah". He also stated that the end will be like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Never does He compare it to the time of the Exodus when the Jews were present during the wrath of God.

In the case of both Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah, the innocent, righteous, people were removed from the area of wrath. This will be the same in the end when the Rapture will take the church from the earth. Also, the "one who restrains" will also be removed.

There is no third coming. The second coming is when Christ returns and stands on the Mount of Olives. He does not do that at the "catching up". At that time He meets us in the air. Not on the earth.

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But, you do believe in a third coming. Here is your doctrine's second coming:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And Here is your doctrine's third coming:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As for a scripture that says "The rapture comes before the Tribulation" There isn't one. This topic has been argued ad nausium by people of far greater theological knowledge than me... from both views.

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There are many passages which speak of Christ coming again to gather His believers and destroy all the wicked when He comes. Yet, there are none that speak of Him coming to gather His believers and then that being followed by a period of tribulation, followed by Him coming again to destroy His enemies. So, why do you side with the view that has no evidence to support it instead of the view that has overwhelming evidence to support it?

So, it is my belief that the Rapture will come before the tribulation. One fact that supports this is the simple fact that the entire population of the world will be demanded to take the mark of the beast or they will not be able to buy or sell... under penalty of decapitation.

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Why would that mean the rapture has to come before that? That is not evidence for a pre-trib rapture whatsoever.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Why would Jesus say something like this if there would be a time when we no longer would need to be faithful unto death? Scripture never teaches that we would need to be removed from the earth to avoid persecution.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

So, how many Christians do you think can survive 7 years, at the longest or 3.5 years at the shortest.. without food, travel, shelter, income, or anything like that.. all the while everyone hates them and is right ready to turn them in for death..

This would mean that those who are "caught up" after the "dead in Christ who rise first" may be nobody. Nobody would be left.

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So, God is incapable of protecting any of His people on the earth during times of tribulation? There is no indication that all Christians would die in that type of scenario.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Was Jesus just giving lip service here or did He know that the Father is able to protect us from evil if He wants to? But, if we get killed for our faith, so be it. We end up in a far better place.

The scripture also says to comfort each other with these words. Are you comforted... knowing that all your loved ones, all your Christian friends... your grandmother, your 12 year old daughter... is going to face decapitation?

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First of all, it's not true that all believers alive at any point will all be killed. You are being overly dramatic here. But, even if that were to happen I am comforted by the fact that they would all be resurrected when Christ returns and caught up to meet Him in the air and then be with Him forever. That is our future hope.

Why worry about whether or not you would survive a future time of tribulation when you are guaranteed eternal bliss if you stay faithful unto death?