Discerning between the Holy Spirit and counterfeits (e.g. Kundalini)?

Dave L said:

It took many years to recover.

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garee said:

Thanks. I would offer.

We are warned about lying signs and wonders. . . . “beforehand”. Before the last new inspired word was given, before our Holy Father sealed up the possibility of any new revelations. The perfect spoken of in 1 Coriorinthians had come. Sealed (7) with a warning not to add or subtract from the whole, every inspired and moved to be written down word of prophecy written for us today ..

The Lord Jesus said that the elect could not be deceived. They have the whole book of prophecy God's written law. The gospel of our salvation it alone is key the gates of hell could never prevail against..

Mathew like Luke are speaking from a prespective of the last days a unknown amount of time, The time of promised reformation had come as the promise to Joel at Pentecost, the pivotal point of the reformation restoring the order of Christ's government. . . men and woman from all nations seeking after the approval of God according to His loving commandment( 2 Timothy 2:15) To study as a way of seeking his approval . . . two walking in agreement as one .(our salvation, our covenant of grace with our Loving God, Emanuel )

Matthew 24:22-24 King James Version (KJV) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Not possible to those who do not add or subtract from the perfect. By that test they can try the spirits to see if they are temporal men seen or of the eternal Holy Spirit not seen .Any person that says this is what the lord said or I had a dream or vision would prove false .John is the last that remains the last.

All Christians are apologists we can as new creatures defend that which defends us . . .it as it is written. It empowering us to put on the armor of his design, just like we would protect the apple of our own eye as that which sees the wounds coming beforehand. . We should try and keep the armor on which is .emphasized by the word as a commandment "Put on the armor" the language of a one time event.

Seeing we are encircled by His love he as Light is the the lead guard and the rear guard creating darkness behind . We can see his backside prophecy fulfilled. but know man knows what is ahead save the father as prophecy not fulfilled. He reveals it by faith to those elected to salvation.

In that way our daily goal to keep it (God's armor ) on seeing it keeps us from the arrows of the evil one . . aimed to blind us of our savior Christ's love .Or first love. . the hearing of His understanding, working in us .The first and lasting experience. Its that love that we return to as it turns us towards him .The word of Gods faith working in mankind.

God does not heal or served using human hands. He has no needs but satisfies all. In that way according to Job 23 he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His souls pleases .Who could turn Him? He performs that which he appoint to us. He makes our hearts soft and heals them .He does the work of turning.

Experience is not the validator of the unseen eternal things of God.
That can be seen in Mathew 4 the beginning of the ministry of the father and Son. Not my will Jesus said be done but the will of the unseen father. .

When the thoughts of Satan, the father of lies brought what some would call out of the body experiences which simply is a lying spirts bringing a illusion into Jesus' fleshly mind. When approached with have you ever been experrnced and shown and propmised all the kingdoms and the glory . The Son of Man spoke the words of His father .As it is written again and again three times and the lying spirit left.

Three is used to indicate the end of the matter. "your'e out" back to the bottomless dugout.

Strike three struck him out .He did not even see it coming (no faith was given to him )Blinder than a Bat .

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Dave L said:

It proves the prayer of faith heals. But the gifts are long gone.

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Aussie Pete said:

The elect can be deceived. Those who think that they cannot be deceived are already deceived. At least 5 times it says in the NT, "Do not be deceived......" If you cannot be deceived then that statement is pointless. It took me seconds to find those 5 statements on Bible Hub. There are more references to deception that do not use the exact phrase.

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TruthSeek3r said:

Sure, but again, you are conflating being "baptized in the Spirit" with being "born-again", and none of the verses you provided establishes that equivalence.

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TruthSeek3r said:

I don't know what version you are reading, but I checked many and all of them very clearly say "filled with". Check out e.g. the NIV:

Acts 2:2-4
2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

They were filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Your claim that it was a different kind of event with respect to Acts 4 is simply not supported by Scripture.

Can you share a single verse saying that the disciples became born-again in Acts 2?

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TruthSeek3r said:

Using this same reasoning, we should conclude that the Spirit departed from the disciples and came back again in Acts 4.

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TruthSeek3r said:

Can you share a single verse stating that those disciples were not born-again until the apostles laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit?

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chad kincham said:

You just can’t get it, can you?

People were saved by faith that Jesus was Messiah, before His death.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

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chad kincham said:

And Jesus was already in heaven before Pentecost. Do you ever read the Bible? Read Peters sermon on Pentecost day:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Those the apostles laid hands on to be filled with the HS, were said to already be believers in Jesus, or did you not read that part of it?

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aiki said:

So, then, explain how this woman was saved without the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and why we all couldn't have been saved in the same way. If this woman could be saved without the Atonement, why did Jesus have to make atonement?

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aiki said:

I wrote: I already addressed this. It is important to distinguish between being baptized in the Spirit, which is to be born-again into Christ (Romans 6:1-10; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.), from being merely filled by the Spirit.

Truthseek3r wrote: None of those passages uses the expression "baptized in the Spirit", so up until this point you are just making stuff up.

I placed the Scripture references in the sentence where I did because they were offered as a basis for the claim that being born-again is made possible only by the Spirit indwelling the believer. That's what the references were intended to support. And they do. Each reference indicates that the life of Christ imbues the born-again believer through the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within them. And it is only as this is the case that a person may say they are truly born-again. (Romans 8:16; 1 John 4:13) It is in the Person of the Holy Spirit that we are given new spiritual life, the life of Christ (Romans 8:9), that makes us "new creatures in Christ." (2 Corinthians 5:17) Until the Spirit has taken up residence within a person, they cannot not legitimately claim to be a "new creature," a born-again child of God. And this is exactly what is in evidence in the instances in Acts where folks who had been baptized by John the Baptist and told of the coming kingdom of God in Christ and believed it were still not spiritually-regenerate until the Spirit came upon them, making them temples of the living God.

John 3:5-8 (NASB)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So, no, I'm not "just making stuff up."



Actually, all the verses I've offered pertaining to the equivalence do very clearly establish that to be born-again necessarily requires being born of the Spirit. See the quotation from John 3 above. If the words of Christ himself can't indicate this to you, nothing can.

It really is sad to see how far you're willing to stray from biblical truth, God's truth, in defense of your position. The more you allow this to happen, the farther you'll find yourself, not just from God's truth, but from the Author of that truth. Be very careful, brother.



I have already offered the reasoning to this conclusion in a number of my posts in this thread now. Please refer to them.

I wrote: John 20:21-23? Had atonement been made for the disciples which was utterly necessary for their justification, sanctification, redemption and acceptance by God?

Truthseek3r wrote: In other words, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elijah, etc. are all doomed, right?

This is what is known as a deflection. It doesn't address my point but attempts to escape it by deflecting to a red-herring. There is no New Covenant salvation except through the atoning work of Christ at Calvary. I've already offered verses which state this VERY clearly. If salvation can be obtained apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross, why, then, did he die? You have not answered this point.

Actually, the instance in John 20 occurs after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and so, at least for the disciples on whom Jesus breathed, it appears they might have been born-again, being given the Spirit at that time by Christ. This is a doubtful and problematic conclusion, though, in light of the Spirit coming upon them again in Acts 2, not merely to fill them, but, as John the Baptist prophesied (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16), to baptize them into Christ (Romans 6:1-6) and so spiritually regenerate them permanently (Hebrews 13:5).

But, perhaps, "filling" and "baptism" are synonymous. Certainly, it seems very evident that they refer to overlapping events. One can't be indwelt by the Spirit and not in some sense be filled by him, too. But why use "baptism" when "filling" is what is meant (or vice versa)? Why use two different terms and cause unnecessary confusion? It seems apparent that using two different terms communicates some difference in meaning between them.

There is no instance of a person being baptized with the Spirit in the OT, though there are many instances where the Spirit comes upon someone (judges, prophets, kings, priests), or fills them, or rests upon them. Samson is a good example (Judges 13-16). Though the Spirit came upon him many times, empowering him in a special, supernatural way, Samson was never born-again, baptized into Christ, united by the Spirit with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-6) and given new spiritual life in him (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11). Samson was filled by the Spirit temporarily, enabled thereby to perform astonishing physical feats, but he was never baptized with the Spirit into Christ, as Paul describes in Romans 6, nor as the disciples in Acts 2 were in fulfillment of the prophecy of John the Baptist, and made a "new creature in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17) as a result.

It seems plain to me, therefore, that being filled with the Spirit, common to both OT and NT times, has nothing necessarily to do with post-Calvary, New Covenant salvation, and is distinct from the spiritual regeneration of the Spirit described as "baptism with the Spirit" by John the Baptist and the apostle Paul.



Why would the Spirit come upon those in whom he already dwelled? You can't come again to place you already occupy; you'd have to leave first in order to come again to it.



See, this is why I think you aren't really reading and understanding my posts. This question of yours here plainly reveals you haven't actually been looking at and thinking through the references I've given to you.

Titus 3:5, 1 John 4:13, Romans 8:9-11, John 3:5-8 - these all clearly explain that spiritual regeneration, being born-again, only happens by the entrance of the Spirit into a person. It is in the Person of the Spirit that a person is placed in Christ who becomes the source for their spiritual life (Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4) Belief in Christ as Saviour and Lord is the means by which the Spirit is prompted to dwell within a person and give them a spiritual "second birth." This is Christianity 101. I shouldn't have to explain any of this to a person who claims to be born-again. But if you understood these things, you wouldn't be asking me to explain why those on whom the apostles laid their hands were only truly born-again when the Spirit came upon them.

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aiki said:

I wrote: I already addressed this. It is important to distinguish between being baptized in the Spirit, which is to be born-again into Christ (Romans 6:1-10; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.), from being merely filled by the Spirit.

Truthseek3r wrote: None of those passages uses the expression "baptized in the Spirit", so up until this point you are just making stuff up.

I placed the Scripture references in the sentence where I did because they were offered as a basis for the claim that being born-again is made possible only by the Spirit indwelling the believer. That's what the references were intended to support. And they do. Each reference indicates that the life of Christ imbues the born-again believer through the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within them. And it is only as this is the case that a person may say they are truly born-again. (Romans 8:16; 1 John 4:13) It is in the Person of the Holy Spirit that we are given new spiritual life, the life of Christ (Romans 8:9), that makes us "new creatures in Christ." (2 Corinthians 5:17) Until the Spirit has taken up residence within a person, they cannot not legitimately claim to be a "new creature," a born-again child of God. And this is exactly what is in evidence in the instances in Acts where folks who had been baptized by John the Baptist and told of the coming kingdom of God in Christ and believed it were still not spiritually-regenerate until the Spirit came upon them, making them temples of the living God.

John 3:5-8 (NASB)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So, no, I'm not "just making stuff up."



Actually, all the verses I've offered pertaining to the equivalence do very clearly establish that to be born-again necessarily requires being born of the Spirit. See the quotation from John 3 above. If the words of Christ himself can't indicate this to you, nothing can.

It really is sad to see how far you're willing to stray from biblical truth, God's truth, in defense of your position. The more you allow this to happen, the farther you'll find yourself, not just from God's truth, but from the Author of that truth. Be very careful, brother.



I have already offered the reasoning to this conclusion in a number of my posts in this thread now. Please refer to them.

I wrote: John 20:21-23? Had atonement been made for the disciples which was utterly necessary for their justification, sanctification, redemption and acceptance by God?

Truthseek3r wrote: In other words, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elijah, etc. are all doomed, right?

This is what is known as a deflection. It doesn't address my point but attempts to escape it by deflecting to a red-herring. There is no New Covenant salvation except through the atoning work of Christ at Calvary. I've already offered verses which state this VERY clearly. If salvation can be obtained apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross, why, then, did he die? You have not answered this point.

Actually, the instance in John 20 occurs after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and so, at least for the disciples on whom Jesus breathed, it appears they might have been born-again, being given the Spirit at that time by Christ. This is a doubtful and problematic conclusion, though, in light of the Spirit coming upon them again in Acts 2, not merely to fill them, but, as John the Baptist prophesied (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16), to baptize them into Christ (Romans 6:1-6) and so spiritually regenerate them permanently (Hebrews 13:5).

But, perhaps, "filling" and "baptism" are synonymous. Certainly, it seems very evident that they refer to overlapping events. One can't be indwelt by the Spirit and not in some sense be filled by him, too. But why use "baptism" when "filling" is what is meant (or vice versa)? Why use two different terms and cause unnecessary confusion? It seems apparent that using two different terms communicates some difference in meaning between them.

There is no instance of a person being baptized with the Spirit in the OT, though there are many instances where the Spirit comes upon someone (judges, prophets, kings, priests), or fills them, or rests upon them. Samson is a good example (Judges 13-16). Though the Spirit came upon him many times, empowering him in a special, supernatural way, Samson was never born-again, baptized into Christ, united by the Spirit with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-6) and given new spiritual life in him (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11). Samson was filled by the Spirit temporarily, enabled thereby to perform astonishing physical feats, but he was never baptized with the Spirit into Christ, as Paul describes in Romans 6, nor as the disciples in Acts 2 were in fulfillment of the prophecy of John the Baptist, and made a "new creature in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17) as a result.

It seems plain to me, therefore, that being filled with the Spirit, common to both OT and NT times, has nothing necessarily to do with post-Calvary, New Covenant salvation, and is distinct from the spiritual regeneration of the Spirit described as "baptism with the Spirit" by John the Baptist and the apostle Paul.



Why would the Spirit come upon those in whom he already dwelled? You can't come again to place you already occupy; you'd have to leave first in order to come again to it.



See, this is why I think you aren't really reading and understanding my posts. This question of yours here plainly reveals you haven't actually been looking at and thinking through the references I've given to you.

Titus 3:5, 1 John 4:13, Romans 8:9-11, John 3:5-8 - these all clearly explain that spiritual regeneration, being born-again, only happens by the entrance of the Spirit into a person. It is in the Person of the Spirit that a person is placed in Christ who becomes the source for their spiritual life (Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4) Belief in Christ as Saviour and Lord is the means by which the Spirit is prompted to dwell within a person and give them a spiritual "second birth." This is Christianity 101. I shouldn't have to explain any of this to a person who claims to be born-again. But if you understood these things, you wouldn't be asking me to explain why those on whom the apostles laid their hands were only truly born-again when the Spirit came upon them.

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Aussie Pete said:

That is simply untrue. There is no expiry date for the gifts. If the perfect has come then we are in big trouble. Sure, gifts can be counterfeit and Christians can be deceived. That's why we need to test everything. There is a great deal of false prophecy these days. Lord Jesus warned us that these times would come. That does not invalidate the real.

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Carl Emerson said:

I think we need to appreciate that the gifting in Mark 16 was for all who would believe. We are all under the commission to go out, therefore we have the gifting mentioned if we are truely born again. Not all who believed became apostles. That is a different issue.

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lismore said:

Hello Carl. I do believe that the Apostles had a specific ministry that would not be available to a believer who was not an Apostle (Perhaps not the Mark 16 scripture though). Perhaps this is where some of the debate is entering in. There are many speakers around who seems to be inserting themselves into the biblical narratives on rather dubious authority.

For example:
Acts 19:11-12
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.

Today there are Charismatic speakers who sell 'miracle' handkerchiefs or other objects. Miracle spring water, healing salt, miracle daffodils etc. There was at least one judicially convicted fraudster who came back with the same fraud and got a slot on God TV.

I don't believe the church does enough to protect the sheep from such wolves in sheep's clothing.

God Bless

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chad kincham said:

Ask Jesus.

I don’t have to know how, just that she was saved by faith in Jesus, as Jesus Himself said.

He also healed all who were sick in fulfillment of His atonement, before His atonement. Matthew 8:16-17.

Since you have all the answers, you can figure out how that can be.

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Aussie Pete said:

That is simply untrue. There is no expiry date for the gifts. If the perfect has come then we are in big trouble. Sure, gifts can be counterfeit and Christians can be deceived. That's why we need to test everything. There is a great deal of false prophecy these days. Lord Jesus warned us that these times would come. That does not invalidate the real.

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lismore said:

Hello Dave,

I'm sorry you had a bad experience in a Charismatic Church. I had a bad experience in a Pentecostal Church. There are a lot of false prophets about, a lot of false teachers as the bible warned. But I have also met people who I considered to be genuine, having received genuine healings. And I have had several experiences with the Holy Spirit myself.

Perhaps the best approach is to be wise and to be careful, test everything rigorously but not to treat anyone's testimony with contempt. God Bless

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Dave L said:

Thanks for your kindness. The prayer of faith heals. But the gifts today are baseless claims without evidence. When you see them raising the dead and restoring amputated limbs, you can start doubting me. Paul says scripture completely furnishes us. He says tongues were incomplete knowledge. Faith comes from hearing the word, not mindless babbling.

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Dave L said:

Are you saying scripture is not perfect (Greek = complete)? Paul says it thoroughly furnishes us. He said tongues and prophecy only gave partial knowledge.

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lismore said:

Hello Carl. I do believe that the Apostles had a specific ministry that would not be available to a believer who was not an Apostle (Perhaps not the Mark 16 scripture though). Perhaps this is where some of the debate is entering in. There are many speakers around who seems to be inserting themselves into the biblical narratives on rather dubious authority.

For example:
Acts 19:11-12
God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.

Today there are Charismatic speakers who sell 'miracle' handkerchiefs or other objects. Miracle spring water, healing salt, miracle daffodils etc. There was at least one judicially convicted fraudster who came back with the same fraud and got a slot on God TV.

I don't believe the church does enough to protect the sheep from such wolves in sheep's clothing.

God Bless

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