Who is THE RESTRAINER

Timtofly

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The insanity that happens when you do not rightly divide the words of truth...
No man, Jesus does not come back and claim the kingdoms of the world to rule for ever and ever in Revelation 11:15, and then immediately hand over sovereignty to the beast for 42 months.
Who said anything about taking over any kingdoms? This is the final harvest, there is no control being exchanged. This is the end of Adam's flesh. If you leave out Satan, the FP, and the image, then Satan does not get 42 months.

Revelation 13:7 does declares Satan and the FP overcome the saints and defeat them. Do you just ignore this verse, or tear it out of your Bible?

7 it was allowed to make war on God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

This is only a 42 month victory, then the end at the battle of Armageddon.

Christ will then rule for 1000 years, and at the end of those 1000 years, hand everything back to God to complete the whole of 8000 year creation.
 
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Timtofly

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Where in Matthew 24:32-51 is there any message to non-Christians to accept Christ?

The verses in Matthew 24:32-51 are based on a person being a Christian already.
These verses are not based on Salvation. The verses show the end of Salvation. No more additions to the church after the Second Coming. That is it. The longer God waits, the more souls are added to the church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.
 
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Jamdoc

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It is the end of Adam's sin and death. All will die. The point about being saved is more people will accept the Atonement and become in Christ. That Salvation, not talking about physical death. All will physically die. Some to eternal life, and most to eternal damnation. Only those in Christ alive will be changed without dying. The rest will die during the final harvest. Most, during the last 42 months or the battle of Armageddon.

I'm standing on scripture, you're standing on your own understanding.
 
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Jamdoc

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Who said anything about taking over any kingdoms? This is the final harvest, there is no control being exchanged. This is the end of Adam's flesh. If you leave out Satan, the FP, and the image, then Satan does not get 42 months.

Revelation 13:7 does declares Satan and the FP overcome the saints and defeat them. Do you just ignore this verse, or tear it out of your Bible?

7 it was allowed to make war on God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

This is only a 42 month victory, then the end at the battle of Armageddon.

Christ will then rule for 1000 years, and at the end of those 1000 years, hand everything back to God to complete the whole of 8000 year creation.

I don't ignore it at all. there will be a time of tribulation where the beast overcomes the saints physically, many will be beheaded. But not all.
Jesus cuts it short with the rapture.
Vision 1
Revelation 6:9-11 tribulation, the saints being physically overcome
Revelation 6:12-17 Jesus appearing in the clouds
Revelation 7:9-17 the results of the rapture when Jesus appeared in the clouds, saints rejoicing in Heaven
Revelation 8-11 the wrath of God

Vision 2
Revelation 13 tribulation, the saints being physically overcome
Revelation 14:14-20 Jesus appearing in the clouds (and harvesting the saints, the rapture)
Revelation 15:2-5 the results of the rapture when Jesus appeared in the clouds, saints rejoicing in Heaven
Revelation 16 the wrath of God

If you read it in chronological order you're having events repeat.
 
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Douggg

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These verses are not based on Salvation. The verses show the end of Salvation. No more additions to the church after the Second Coming. That is it. The longer God waits, the more souls are added to the church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.
Matthew 24:32-51 informs of the season when the rapture will take place. And the rapture itself of Jesus coming at a time unexpected, no man knows the day nor hour - He is Lord to them in those passages. Non-believers do not consider Jesus their Lord.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Jesus is talking to believers, about the rapture; not unbelievers who deny him.
 
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Berean Tim

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When I look at God on the throne, Wrath is not what I see. I see Love and Forgiveness.
That's great ! My post was what the unsaved saw. They were trying to hide from the wrath of God. They knew it had arrived. No secret rapture everyone knew what just happened
 
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Timtofly

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I don't ignore it at all. there will be a time of tribulation where the beast overcomes the saints physically, many will be beheaded. But not all.
Jesus cuts it short with the rapture.
Vision 1
Revelation 6:9-11 tribulation, the saints being physically overcome
Revelation 6:12-17 Jesus appearing in the clouds
Revelation 7:9-17 the results of the rapture when Jesus appeared in the clouds, saints rejoicing in Heaven
Revelation 8-11 the wrath of God

Vision 2
Revelation 13 tribulation, the saints being physically overcome
Revelation 14:14-20 Jesus appearing in the clouds (and harvesting the saints, the rapture)
Revelation 15:2-5 the results of the rapture when Jesus appeared in the clouds, saints rejoicing in Heaven
Revelation 16 the wrath of God

If you read it in chronological order you're having events repeat.
Not me. There is only one Second Coming.

You have two second comings in two visions.

John was a witness, not a visionary. He experienced the event and wrote down what he saw. Until told not to write down what he witnessed. John wrote in symbols when he was paraphrasing any event as a whole.
 
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James Honigman

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In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?
Hi Tra Phull. The Archangel Michael is holding Satan until our Father boots him out of heaven to deceive the world.
 
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Jamdoc

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Not me. There is only one Second Coming.

You have two second comings in two visions.

John was a witness, not a visionary. He experienced the event and wrote down what he saw. Until told not to write down what he witnessed. John wrote in symbols when he was paraphrasing any event as a whole.

Events, and he wrote down the same thing with different details viewed in different ways.
Not to mention, the first coming was everything that happened from Jesus' birth until His ascension.
Likewise, His second coming is everything from Him appearing in the clouds, into eternity.
 
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Timtofly

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Matthew 24:32-51 informs of the season when the rapture will take place. And the rapture itself of Jesus coming at a time unexpected, no man knows the day nor hour - He is Lord to them in those passages. Non-believers do not consider Jesus their Lord.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Jesus is talking to believers, about the rapture; not unbelievers who deny him.
Unbelievers will not change their mind after the Second Coming. They may loose their heads though. That is really physically changing one's mind.
 
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Timtofly

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That's great ! My post was what the unsaved saw. They were trying to hide from the wrath of God. They knew it had arrived. No secret rapture everyone knew what just happened
It is still the Second Coming, and the church is gone.
 
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Timtofly

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Events, and he wrote down the same thing with different details viewed in different ways.
Not to mention, the first coming was everything that happened from Jesus' birth until His ascension.
Likewise, His second coming is everything from Him appearing in the clouds, into eternity.
The Second Coming, just like the first is a series of events. The Cross was not the only event. Nor did all the gospels view a single event and give only that event. There are at least 4 distinct events after the sky is rolled back like a scroll.
 
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Jamdoc

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The Second Coming, just like the first is a series of events. The Cross was not the only event. Nor did all the gospels view a single event and give only that event. There are at least 4 distinct events after the sky is rolled back like a scroll.
Glad we agree on that.
So we can see that Jesus comes in the clouds, raptures the elect, pours out His wrath, marries His bride, and then comes back with His bride to claim His kingdom.
 
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Timtofly

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Depends on what you mean 2nd Coming. If you mean Armageddon then no. It's after the 6th Seal before the 7th Seal. Armageddon is after the 7 bowls
You said the Trumpets start the wrath. The Trumpets start the judgment on Israel and the separation of the sheep and goats. That is not wrath. The wrath starts with the 7 vials at the close of Satan's 42 months. That was the point of contention. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The final harvest is the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The Lamb and the 144k will be gathering the final harvest. They are on earth until Revelation 13:7. No where does John say they leave earth, between the 7th Seal and 7th Trumpet.
 
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Timtofly

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Glad we agree on that.
So we can see that Jesus comes in the clouds, raptures the elect, pours out His wrath, marries His bride, and then comes back with His bride to claim His kingdom.
Not exactly. The Lamb and the 144k gather the final harvest during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet is after the 7 Thunders. It is an 8 day event between Sunday to Sunday. Just like Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday. The 7th Trumpet sounds for the whole 8 days. It is the time of celebration after the harvest is collected. It happens on earth just like the 3.5 years the first time. The first time there were 12 disciples and it was in Palestine. This time there will be 144k disciples throughout the whole world. 12 times 12,000 from out of the whole world.

Also about the Kingdom. According to Revelation 7:13-17

13 One of the elders asked me, “These people dressed in white robes — who are they, and where are they from?”
14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.
15 That is why they are before God’s throne.

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple;
and the One who sits on the throne
will put his Sh’khinah upon them.

16 “They will never again be hungry,
they will never again be thirsty,
the sun will not beat down on them
,
nor will any burning heat.

17 “For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will shepherd them, will lead them
to springs of living water,
and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."


The 144k are sealed on earth.

The church is sealed in the temple of God, Paradise. The church will forever be in Paradise, until it comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. The church is the bride of Christ, but Christ has a day job, in keeping with the married family symbolism, where the wife takes care of the home, and the husband has a day job. Not very PC, but work is overrated and overwhelming these days, anyways.
 
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Berean Tim

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You said the Trumpets start the wrath. The Trumpets start the judgment on Israel and the separation of the sheep and goats. That is not wrath. The wrath starts with the 7 vials at the close of Satan's 42 months. That was the point of contention. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The final harvest is the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The Lamb and the 144k will be gathering the final harvest. They are on earth until Revelation 13:7. No where does John say they leave earth, between the 7th Seal and 7th Trumpet.
Revelation 79After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

The Great Multitude is standing before the throne, this is after the 6th Seal before the 7th.

The Wrath "has come" Revelation 6:16&17, that would be before the Trumpets.

I just take it as it reads
 
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Rachel20

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I have considered them and put a lot of time studying apostasy=rapture theory. Have you ?

I've only recently started looking at this. I think what stands out to me is the letter specifies "now you know what is restraining" - the letter itself must reveal the restrainer. Paul believed in imminency (1 Thessalonians 5:2) yet gives a list of things that must happen first in 2 Thess 2. Ehrman sees this as a contradiction and rejects Paul even wrote the 2nd letter because of it. But logically, "imminency" can apply to the first thing in the list - the "falling away" - and that would be what overtakes the children of darkness but not the children of light. So now, you need to explain how an apostasia (by your definition) overtakes the children of darkness, who are already lost. And how it doesn't overtake the children of light per Paul (who's apostasia then?)
 
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Berean Tim

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I've only recently started looking at this. I think what stands out to me is the letter specifies "now you know what is restraining" - the letter itself must reveal the restrainer. Paul believed in imminency (1 Thessalonians 5:2) yet gives a list of things that must happen first in 2 Thess 2. Ehrman sees this as a contradiction and rejects Paul even wrote the 2nd letter because of it. But logically, "imminency" can apply to the first thing in the list - the "falling away" - and that would be what overtakes the children of darkness but not the children of light. So now, you need to explain how an apostasia (by your definition) overtakes the children of darkness, who are already lost. And how it doesn't overtake the children of light per Paul (who's apostasia then?)
The letter does not reveal who the Restrainer is. Paul states very clearly "now you know what is restraining"

Lets take "imminency" for a minute John 21: 18Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19(This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me

Peter knew He would grow old and be martyr. Did Peter teach"imminency" of Jesus's coming ?

I don't know who Ehrman is, but if He casting doubt on the Word of God I don't think he's a reliable source.

I don't need to explain, it clearly says the Rebellion/apostasia and revealing of the AC happens first.
Every reference of apostasia in the Bible is a rebellion from God. All of them !

You need to explain why you reject this.

See below for a reference: Strong's # 646
ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:(29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

Please stay away from folks who doubt the Word of God
 
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