Defund the police

OddityCrisis · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
Minneapolis didn’t abolish the police. They are voting soon in a proposal to move 8 mil from the police budget into other programs.

Proposal to abolish Minneapolis Police Department delayed past November ballot - CNN

So, they did vote to abolish it, but, because it's so moronic, they're not actually sure how to go about it.

Erik Nelson · Dec 4, 2020

Campaign Ad: Black Lives Don't Matter To Democrats - YouTube

GDL · Dec 4, 2020

Speedwell said:
There are bad judges but mostly they, and the rest of the judicial system, are just overwhelmed.

Ken-1122 said:
It seems the logical solution would be to increase (rather than defund) the size of the Judicial system to accommodate the increased work load instead of just letting them go due to work overload

I know this is a mixed crowd, but Ken-1122 hits a point that I also take from the Bible. When Moses was overwhelmed with judging it was suggested a judiciary be educated in law and organized according to population with plenty of judges, at several levels, and a system for escalation all the way to the top. To give an idea of how the matter was viewed, they arranged judges all the way down to one for every ten people in an area. I think this is more a commentary on a view of how much conflict there is among people and how important it is that they get resolved.

Also, much later, in Paul's writings, he rebukes churches for not having a qualified judiciary to take care of conflicts, and for actually putting people in judicial positions because they didn't know what else to do with them.

Conflicts are a never-ending part of humanity. We'd be much better off facing this with a fast, efficient, inexpensive, and qualified judicial system that took care of matters in short order.

Sparagmos · Dec 4, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
What is your point and what does it have to do with what I said?

You said that putting money into other programs isn’t defunding the police. I said that if money is taken from the police and put towards other programs, it is.

Sparagmos · Dec 4, 2020

OddityCrisis said:
Proposal to abolish Minneapolis Police Department delayed past November ballot - CNN

So, they did vote to abolish it, but, because it's so moronic, they're not actually sure how to go about it.

That’s a really old article. Look at what’s happening NOW. They DID NOT abolish the police, period. And if you look at what they were proposing, it was replacing the current law enforcement department with a new, different one.

Ken-1122 · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
Yeah, like I said, they didn’t abolish the police. And the “radical elements” weren’t proposing that according to your post, they wanted to defund by 50%. And crime rates went up before any of that happened, as they did in most cities when COVID struck.

COVID struck around the same time Floyd riots began, resulting in radical elements in the justice system to limit the ability of the Police to do their jobs effectively which so happen to be around the same time the radical elements of the city council was voted into office, and the idea of defunding the police began to take traction, and nightly riots allowed to take place with the radical elements of the justice system preventing the police from doing anything about it. This was what resulted in the Police leaving and crime going through the roof. It was much more taking place than just COVID. The 15% cut was something that just happened a few weeks ago, the increase in crime happened months ago when all this madness was allowed to take place.
There are radical elements that do want to eliminate the police but they know it won't go anywhere so they begin by asking for a 50% defund and once that is accomplished, they take it further and further till the cops are gone; and if you ask them what will happen when a cop is needed, they don't have an answer; at least this has been the case with the ones I've talked to.

Ken-1122 · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
You said that putting money into other programs isn’t defunding the police. I said that if money is taken from the police and put towards other programs, it is.

Okay I see what you are saying. If these programs are needed, you shouldn't have to defund the police or any other government agency in order to fund them. You should get these programs in place AND keep the police funded as necessary.

Sparagmos · Dec 4, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
COVID struck around the same time Floyd riots began, resulting in radical elements in the justice system to limit the ability of the Police to do their jobs effectively which so happen to be around the same time the radical elements of the city council was voted into office, and the idea of defunding the police began to take traction, and nightly riots allowed to take place with the radical elements of the justice system preventing the police from doing anything about it. This was what resulted in the Police leaving and crime going through the roof. It was much more taking place than just COVID. The 15% cut was something that just happened a few weeks ago, the increase in crime happened months ago when all this madness was allowed to take place.
There are radical elements that do want to eliminate the police but they know it won't go anywhere so they begin by asking for a 50% defund and once that is accomplished, they take it further and further till the cops are gone; and if you ask them what will happen when a cop is needed, they don't have an answer; at least this has been the case with the ones I've talked to.

None of this ties increases in crime to defunding. Defunding has to go into effect before you can connect the two. If that’s not what you are trying to do, I’m not sure why you raised the increase in crime on a thread about defunding.

Sparagmos · Dec 4, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Okay I see what you are saying. If these programs are needed, you shouldn't have to defund the police or any other government agency in order to fund them. You should get these programs in place AND keep the police funded as necessary.

That’s certainly how some people feel. Those of us who think the police are overfunded and that it hurts citizens think otherwise. There’s also the issue of where you get the money for other programs if it doesn’t come from the police budget.

Albion · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
None of this ties increases in crime to defunding. Defunding has to go into effect before you can connect the two.

Well, by now, that's a moot point. The "defunding" did occur, and the crime rate did soar.

Sparagmos · Dec 4, 2020

Albion said:
Well, by now, that's a moot point. The "defunding" did occur, and the crime rate did soar.

Oh really? When did the defunding go into effect and what changed in crime rates afterwards?

Ken-1122 · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
None of this ties increases in crime to defunding. Defunding has to go into effect before you can connect the two. If that’s not what you are trying to do, I’m not sure why you raised the increase in crime on a thread about defunding.

In Seattle, they allowed a 6 block area in the Queen anne area to be a non police zone (CHOP) run by the radical element for 3 weeks. During that 3 weeks there were more murders in that 6 block area than they usually have in that area for the entire year. Accounts of rape, beatings were taking place with the police unable to do anything about it, the entire thing resulted in chaos. If nothing else, CHOP proved a lack of police does not result in less crime, but a result of more crime.

Sparagmos said:
That’s certainly how some people feel. Those of us who think the police are overfunded and that it hurts citizens think otherwise. There’s also the issue of where you get the money for other programs if it doesn’t come from the police budget.

In Seattle there are already such programs in place to prevent crime. If you feel those programs aren't doing their job, perhaps more funding to programs already in place via increased taxes, or replacing them with new programs; whatever the case defunding the police department should have nothing to do with inaction of these separate programs designed to prevent crime.

OddityCrisis · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
That’s a really old article. Look at what’s happening NOW. They DID NOT abolish the police, period. And if you look at what they were proposing, it was replacing the current law enforcement department with a new, different one.

Did they rescind their vote to abolish the police, which you have to do before replacing it?

gaara4158 · Dec 4, 2020

Speedwell said:
Because what they are tasked with more often resembles the military occupation of a conquered country than what we think of as traditional police work. Ask why that is, first.

That was my next question. Why are so many American cities so crime-ridden and poor?

Ken-1122 said:
Most of the people the police shoot are white; not black.

Most people in America are white, that’s not surprising. Corrected for proportion of population, black people are killed at a rate 3x higher than white people.

Ken-1122 said:
What do you mean when you say to demilitarize the police?

Changing the way we prepare police to fight crime from “everyone’s a potential perp who might be hiding a weapon, ready to end your life at any moment” to “you have a duty to maintain a trusting relationship with the community you’re policing.” Rolling up to peaceful protests in riot gear and APCs doesn’t really foster that kind of relationship. We aim to fix that.

GDL said:
Criminality is not going away. In my view it's actually becoming more brazen and widespread.

Crime has been trending downward since 1990.

OddityCrisis said:
Tell it to Minneapolis

Minneapolis agrees.

OddityCrisis · Dec 4, 2020

Good, they can live with the crime they voted for, then.

Albion · Dec 4, 2020

gaara4158 said:
Crime has been trending downward since 1990.

Minneapolis agrees.

Perhaps you meant to say "had been" trending downward.

Minneapolis carjackings explode by 537% from this time last year (lawenforcementtoday.com)

Sparagmos · Dec 4, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
In Seattle, they allowed a 6 block area in the Queen anne area to be a non police zone (CHOP) run by the radical element for 3 weeks. During that 3 weeks there were more murders in that 6 block area than they usually have in that area for the entire year. Accounts of rape, beatings were taking place with the police unable to do anything about it, the entire thing resulted in chaos. If nothing else, CHOP proved a lack of police does not result in less crime, but a result of more crime.

Well I think you’ve exaggerated what happened a bit, but I don’t think there is any disagreement here over whether eliminating police prescence overnight without any other replacement services is likely to cause an increase in crime.

Ken-1122 said:
In Seattle there are already such programs in place to prevent crime. If you feel those programs aren't doing their job, perhaps more funding to programs already in place via increased taxes, or replacing them with new programs; whatever the case defunding the police department should have nothing to do with inaction of these separate programs designed to prevent crime.

Like I said, some of us disagree. Having personally witnessed the harm to a community that an overfunded police department causes, I disagree. But we’ve argued endlessly here on CF about the police, I don’t see any purpose in restating everything.

GDL · Dec 4, 2020

gaara4158 said:
Crime has been trending downward since 1990.

References cited would be helpful.

Also, does this include all the recent rioting / types of violence?

Speedwell · Dec 4, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Perhaps liberals, but I don't thinks a lot of conservatives are against building more jails, prisons, and getting more cops on the streets in order to keep our streets safe; at least not the ones I've had contact with

But the bottleneck which is causing much of the problem would still exist--and is still not spoken of.

Ken-1122 · Dec 4, 2020

Sparagmos said:
Well I think you’ve exaggerated what happened a bit, but I don’t think there is any disagreement here over whether eliminating police prescence overnight without any other replacement services is likely to cause an increase in crime.

What do you think I'm exaggerating about? If you recall, there was even a point when some of the BLM leaders were calling for all black people to leave CHOP due to the violence. The Queen ann area of Seattle was an expensive lower crime area of Seattle, but under CHOP that area was considered even too violent for Black people (LOL)

Sparagmos said:
Like I said, some of us disagree. Having personally witnessed the harm to a community that an overfunded police department causes,

What type of harm does an over funded police department cause to the community?

Defund the police

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