Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

Hazelelponi · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
If God is as Sovereign as we all know He is, then Revelation 20 is His greatest accomplishment for the next Millennium.

The next?

Jesus said: "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out." John 12:31

Spiritual Jew · Dec 3, 2020

DavidPT said:
Let's test one of your rules and see if you are following it like you expect others to.

6th rule: Scripture is its own best interpreter; we must therefore support Scripture with Scripture. Explore the full gamut of Scripture on a matter. See what other similar Scripture says.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Assuming Amil, not Premil, where is there support in other Scriptures for someone while in a disembodied state in heaven, fulfilling this part while in that state---they shall be priests of God and of Christ?

The fact Amils insist this part--and shall reign with him a thousand years--begins in this life and continues after death, meaning one continues reigning a thousand years in heaven, one can't cherry pick and only apply that part to someone after they die, and not also apply the part of being kings and priests as well. Prove you are following rule 6 in this case.

I know you were specifically asking sovereigngrace to prove he is following his rule 6, but since I agree with that rule I'd like to answer it as well. Scripture is clear that we are priests of God and of Christ now.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

So, tell me why someone who is now a priest of God and of Christ would somehow no longer be a priest of God and of Christ when they physically die and their souls go to be in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ? Unless you believe in soul sleep, I do not understand why you would conclude that we would not continue being priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom when we die and our souls go to heaven. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32), right?

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
The next?

Jesus said: "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out." John 12:31

What was Satan cast out of? Why quote a verse from one context and use it in another context?

sovereigngrace · Dec 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
What was Satan cast of? Why quote a verse from one context and use it in another context?

He was cast out of heaven. He had no more authority to accuse before the throne of God.

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
He was cast out of heaven. He had no more authority to accuse before the throne of God.

Not then. The claim was cast out of earth, then. Satan still accuses sinners, because sinners did not become sinless. We are still descendants of Adam. That has not changed.

You are the one who claims Satan no longer has authority in earth, yet he has had an ongoing relationship with the harlot church, so she must have let Satan back into the seat of authority. Is that not what those Reformation people claimed? They added that even the pope was the AC. Just because the disciples and the apostles kept "the strong man" in check, does not mean the 3rd, 4th, and 5th century church did. The accuser of the brethren, the church, of all time, since Abel, is still ongoing. Now we have an advocate. Was Jesus also the advocate in the OT? If you can prove Christ stopped being the OT advocate, and there is not an NT advocate, you have a point. Otherwise Christ as advocate will happen until the 7th Trumpet.

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I know you were specifically asking sovereigngrace to prove he is following his rule 6, but since I agree with that rule I'd like to answer it as well. Scripture is clear that we are priests of God and of Christ now.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

So, tell me why someone who is now a priest of God and of Christ would somehow no longer be a priest of God and of Christ when they physically die and their souls go to be in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ? Unless you believe in soul sleep, I do not understand why you would conclude that we would not continue being priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom when we die and our souls go to heaven. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32), right?

I'm looking for Scriptures, which none of you are producing, that shows what it looks like to be priests to God and Christ after one has died and is in a disembodied state. What does that look like? We already know what it looks like this side of life, per your submission from 1 Peter 2, but how do you also apply some of that to someone after they have died, that while in a disembodied state in heaven, they continue to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ? How does verse 9 in that same chapter apply to someone after they have died, that they should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light? 1 Peter 2 is contrasting those that are obedient with that of those who are disobedient, verse 7. None of that has to do with anything taking place in heaven after one has died.

sovereigngrace · Dec 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
Not then. The claim was cast out of earth, then. Satan still accuses sinners, because sinners did not become sinless. We are still descendants of Adam. That has not changed.

You are the one who claims Satan no longer has authority in earth, yet he has had an ongoing relationship with the harlot church, so she must have let Satan back into the seat of authority. Is that not what those Reformation people claimed? They added that even the pope was the AC. Just because the disciples and the apostles kept "the strong man" in check, does not mean the 3rd, 4th, and 5th century church did. The accuser of the brethren, the church, of all time, since Abel, is still ongoing. Now we have an advocate. Was Jesus also the advocate in the OT? If you can prove Christ stopped being the OT advocate, and there is not an NT advocate, you have a point. Otherwise Christ as advocate will happen until the 7th Trumpet.

I have never said that Satan does not have authority today. That is another false assertion of yours. He has authority where people give him authority. But he has no authority over the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church has authority over him.

While a Christian can give place to the devil, he has no control over them. Every lie received or assault allowed on the people of God backfires on the enemy. They are ultimately protected by the blood of Jesus and everything they face works for their betterment and the glory of God.

From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in an invisible spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations. It is a spiritual condition of restraint that prevents them from curtailing the Gospel advance to the ethnos (Gentiles).

The dog can go as far as the chain takes him. So, it is with Satan. The restraint he is under restricts his movement, thus curtailing the injury he can inflict. If you get close to a dangerous dog on a leash you will normally experience the consequences. It will bite you. Stay away from it and you will be fine. The reality is, a prisoner in a prison can walk, move, roam even do vice and injury, but that does not negate the fact he is restricted behind bars. Satan is a spiritual being that resides within a spiritual prison since his defeat at the cross.

He is a defeated accuser, according to Scripture. He is cast down. The chains he had on the Gentiles have now been placed on him. Christ now reigns over all His enemies. I realize in your theology Satan is BIG and Christ is DETHRONED. The Bible portrays the opposite picture.

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I know you were specifically asking sovereigngrace to prove he is following his rule 6, but since I agree with that rule I'd like to answer it as well. Scripture is clear that we are priests of God and of Christ now.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

So, tell me why someone who is now a priest of God and of Christ would somehow no longer be a priest of God and of Christ when they physically die and their souls go to be in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ? Unless you believe in soul sleep, I do not understand why you would conclude that we would not continue being priests of God and of Christ in His kingdom when we die and our souls go to heaven. For God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32), right?

We are the temple (our bodies) that replaced the OT tabernacle. We are our individual priest, with no need of a central tabernacle. The Garden of Eden, Paradise is the temple of God. It will come down as the New Jerusalem. Being kings and priests now is a title more than a position in the OT tabernacle.

There are no Nations in Paradise, because Paradise is the nation of Adam and Adam's descendants. If you "see" control over the Nations, it is physical and on earth. It is not now, and since amil deny the next Millennium, never. Having nations in the NHNE, is not a given, because all this former stuff will pass away. Revelation 21:4-5

4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away.”
5 Then the One sitting on the throne said, “Look! I am making everything new!” Also he said, “Write, ‘These words are true and trustworthy!’”

sovereigngrace · Dec 4, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm looking for Scriptures, which none of you are producing, that shows what it looks like to be priests to God and Christ after one has died and is in a disembodied state. What does that look like? We already know what it looks like this side of life, per your submission from 1 Peter 2, but how do you also apply some of that to someone after they have died, that while in a disembodied state in heaven, they continue to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ? How does verse 9 in that same chapter apply to someone after they have died, that they should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light? 1 Peter 2 is contrasting those that are obedient with that of those who are disobedient, verse 7. None of that has to do with anything taking place in heaven after one has died.

You need to first grasp the NT truth, that since the cross, Christians never die. You do not seem to grasp that. Read the following Scriptures with an open mind and you will see that death has been defeated. It has no hold over the believer. Jesus has defeated it. You need to see that death is defeated. That is why the redeemed (dead or alive) rule and reign and function as priests and kings.

Death defeated

2 Timothy 1:9-10 says, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Here you have it! Jesus has abolished death on our behalf. He do not need to fear it any more. Our Lord confronted that dark enemy and overcome it, opening up heaven to the dead in Christ through His eternal victory.

Death has lost its sting. Christ’s appeared unto John on the Isle of Patmos years after the cross, in Revelation 1:18, and testified: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (or Hades) and of death.”

Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ now reign in heaven with Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-18 explains: “through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

Christ currently holds the keys of Hades and of death, and Satan cannot snatch them out of His hand. He holds the keys because they belong to Him. He possesses all authority in heaven and on earth. That includes power over life and death.

Praise the Lord, the grave has been defeated.

1 John 3:18 states “The Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.”

Satan had exercised that Adamic authority since the fall. Now it was time for the last Adam to grasp it back. As man’s representative, Christ had to take upon Himself human flesh to meet the devil on his own playing field. He had to take back all that was lost in the Garden. In this, Christ lived the life that Adam couldn’t live. Christ came to live the life man couldn’t live and pay the debt that man could never pay. By Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrected He defeated the authority of Satan and took back all that belonged to Adam. Satan has been stripped of his legal authority to control the nations.

Live forever

John states Revelation 20:6, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Here, the first resurrection is outlined as the means by which men gain victory over the second death and enter into the great company that reign in Christ – both dead and alive; the redeemed reign in life and in death. In life, they are spiritually positioned in the heavenly Jerusalem, in death, they enter into the immediate presence of God and reign through Him that sits upon the throne.

This corresponds to what Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

This is speaking of the resurrection life that can be enjoyed in this life through faith.

Jesus said in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

Jesus said in John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

The word “hath” here is a present tense word which means now or at this present time.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51-52 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death) … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die (or experience the second death)."

These bodies are not eternal or immortal. Our spirits are. That is 101 Christianity. These bodies die. What is more we experience eternal life upon salvation. The Christian will live for and never die because the Spirit of God within.

I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. That simple!

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have never said that Satan does not have authority today. That is another false assertion of yours. He has authority where people give him authority. But he has no authority over the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church has authority over him.

While a Christian can give place to the devil, he has no control over them. Every lie received or assault allowed on the people of God backfires on the enemy. They are ultimately protected by the blood of Jesus and everything they face works for their betterment and the glory of God.

From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in an invisible spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations. It is a spiritual condition of restraint that prevents them from curtailing the Gospel advance to the ethnos (Gentiles).

The dog can go as far as the chain takes him. So, it is with Satan. The restraint he is under restricts his movement, thus curtailing the injury he can inflict. If you get close to a dangerous dog on a leash you will normally experience the consequences. It will bite you. Stay away from it and you will be fine. The reality is, a prisoner in a prison can walk, move, roam even do vice and injury, but that does not negate the fact he is restricted behind bars. Satan is a spiritual being that resides within a spiritual prison since his defeat at the cross.

He is a defeated accuser, according to Scripture. He is cast down. The chains he had on the Gentiles have now been placed on him. Christ now reigns over all His enemies. I realize in your theology Satan is BIG and Christ is DETHRONED. The Bible portrays the opposite picture.

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

I do not accept your extra biblical, loose chain, Hollywood movie scenario. Neither does God's Word as you have no Scripture to back up this private interpretation narrative.

In Revelation 20, bound in a pit, Satan has no authority whatsoever. So your limited authority excuse seems untenable. Satan is still accusing us night and day before the throne in heaven, and that only stops when he is cast out of heaven at the 7th Trumpet, and personally reveals himself to the world. He no longer needs to hide in the shadows. God on the throne and the Lamb are in full view. Satan can no longer deceive Adam's descendants.

And yet you still misrepresent pre-mill and blow a gasket when I do not misrepresent amil, but point out the truth. If the church overcomes Satan with the blood of Christ, are you asserting pre-mill are not even part of the church? You throw tiny pebbles, but refuse to remove any boulders that hamper the amil view.

Ironic, that you can imagine a big Satan and a dethroned Christ. No one else in the church can do that. Why foist your imagination on the rest of us?

sovereigngrace · Dec 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
I do not accept your extra biblical, loose chain, Hollywood movie scenario. Neither does God's Word as you have no Scripture to back up this private interpretation narrative.

In Revelation 20, bound in a pit, Satan has no authority whatsoever. So your limited authority excuse seems untenable. Satan is still accusing us night and day before the throne in heaven, and that only stops when he is cast out of heaven at the 7th Trumpet, and personally reveals himself to the world. He no longer needs to hide in the shadows. God on the throne and the Lamb are in full view. Satan can no longer deceive Adam's descendants.

And yet you still misrepresent pre-mill and blow a gasket when I do not misrepresent amil, but point out the truth. If the church overcomes Satan with the blood of Christ, are you asserting pre-mill are not even part of the church? You throw tiny pebbles, but refuse to remove any boulders that hamper the amil view.

Ironic, that you can imagine a big Satan and a dethroned Christ. No one else in the church can do that. Why foist your imagination on the rest of us?

Speak for yourself. Satan may have something on you, but not on me and the redeemed. Jesus paid for our guilt in full. When you have no answers, you start throwing out your false charges, which is nearly every post. Your MO is to ignore every Scripture, point and argument that forbids your error. That does not advance your argument but expose it as extra-biblical.

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You need to first grasp the NT truth, that since the cross, Christians never die. You do not seem to grasp that. Read the following Scriptures with an open mind and you will see that death has been defeated. It has no hold over the believer. Jesus has defeated it. You need to see that death is defeated. That is why the redeemed (dead or alive) rule and reign and function as priests and kings.

One still needs a body to experience being a priest and king. Most here accept a false theology that claims souls have to wait thousands of years for a body.

You quote all these verses, and then assume there is no body in Paradise. All of God's Word points out that after the Cross, Christ opened Paradise to enjoy bodily. The church only assumes, and when asked to specify, the church can only deny, deny, deny there is a body in Paradise.

Since the state of body never ends, dies, then what happens? This corruptible has to put on incorruption, otherwise you contradict your own never dying state. And if we are changed in this life, why would you deny Adam could not change, that day, and die in his life? Perhaps physical death is made out to be way more than it should be?

You claim Adam's physical death 800+ years later was the "key" event. It was not, just like physical death is not the major point now. In Christ we have already passed from death to life, even while alive and walking around on earth. Physical death is just going to sleep in corruptible flesh, and waking up a second later in a permanent incorruptible body. David did have to wait in Abraham's bosom for hundreds of years, until the Cross. No more waiting, and Abraham's bosom is empty and no longer exists.

The Holy Spirit is our credit while we are alive on earth. We can only act in that power, not our sinful flesh power.

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Speak for yourself. Satan may have something on you, but not on me and the redeemed. Jesus paid for our guilt in full. When you have no answers, you start throwing out your false charges, which is nearly every post. Your MO is to ignore every Scripture, point and argument that forbids your error. That does not advance your argument but expose it as extra-biblical.

Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
Does imprisonment mean immobility?
Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Satan is an angel, a physical created being.

The dragon is a symbolic term for Satan. Symbols are not physical creations.

The serpent from the Garden of Eden is a symbolic representation of Satan.

The earth is not a solid metal entity. Why open it with a solid metal key?

If God uses metal, would you reject God’s Word on the basis you know more than God does?

The earth is not a solid brick, silly.

Jesus said chains will not even bind a human with demons. The demons will break them for the human. Can you even define a demon?

Do people in prison act like Hollywood movie characters? Do you imagine things that may not be reality?

Now you are just grasping for straw...

sovereigngrace · Dec 4, 2020

Timtofly said:
Satan is an angel, a physical created being.

The dragon is a symbolic term for Satan. Symbols are not physical creations.

The serpent from the Garden of Eden is a symbolic representation of Satan.

The earth is not a solid metal entity. Why open it with a solid metal key?

If God uses metal, would you reject God’s Word on the basis you know more than God does?

The earth is not a solid brick, silly.

Jesus said chains will not even bind a human with demons. The demons will break them for the human. Can you even define a demon?

Do people in prison act like Hollywood movie characters? Do you imagine things that may not be reality?

Now you are just grasping for straw...

Ok, so you can grasp where Amils are coming from. Satan has movement today but he is limited in his influence.

Timtofly · Dec 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Ok, so you can grasp where Amils are coming from. Satan has movement today but he is limited in his influence.

Amils are not aliens from a different planet. Satan has always been limited. That was obvious when Job lived. Any authority Satan had was and will always be granted on a need to "use" basis. Satan has no choice or free will. Satan has a mind, that keeps things hopping when it comes to Satan wanting to be God himself. Whoever thinks Satan has a free check, and can do as he pleases can only be deceived by Satan. God never implies that any where, much less gives Satan a leash to just do as he pleases. That is Hollywood dramatics.

No, understanding amil thought process is useless to me. Defending God's Word works better than trying to point out all of amil faults. Some amil do seem to view Peter as the one with all of the Revelation, and Peter did not even recieve Revelation, John did. John is the witness, not Peter. If you stop at Peter, it is like window shopping, but if you go inside, John and Revelation, there is a lot more store to be seen.

sovereigngrace · Dec 9, 2020

Timtofly said:
Amils are not aliens from a different planet. Satan has always been limited. That was obvious when Job lived. Any authority Satan had was and will always be granted on a need to "use" basis. Satan has no choice or free will. Satan has a mind, that keeps things hopping when it comes to Satan wanting to be God himself. Whoever thinks Satan has a free check, and can do as he pleases can only be deceived by Satan. God never implies that any where, much less gives Satan a leash to just do as he pleases. That is Hollywood dramatics.

No, understanding amil thought process is useless to me. Defending God's Word works better than trying to point out all of amil faults. Some amil do seem to view Peter as the one with all of the Revelation, and Peter did not even recieve Revelation, John did. John is the witness, not Peter. If you stop at Peter, it is like window shopping, but if you go inside, John and Revelation, there is a lot more store to be seen.

You are always trying to divert discussions into irrelevancies and false paths. You continually avoid the biblical evidence that forbids your doctrine.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Since the first Advent, Satan is shown to be a conquered foe!

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 9, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm looking for Scriptures, which none of you are producing, that shows what it looks like to be priests to God and Christ after one has died and is in a disembodied state. What does that look like? We already know what it looks like this side of life, per your submission from 1 Peter 2, but how do you also apply some of that to someone after they have died, that while in a disembodied state in heaven, they continue to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ? How does verse 9 in that same chapter apply to someone after they have died, that they should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light? 1 Peter 2 is contrasting those that are obedient with that of those who are disobedient, verse 7. None of that has to do with anything taking place in heaven after one has died.

I somehow missed this until now, so that's why my response is delayed.

You apparently believe in the doctrine of soul sleep. Do you not know that soul sleep is considered to be a heretical doctrine? Do you know why? Because God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and He is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32). So, if the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and other believers are sleeping and not alive and alert in heaven then God would not be their God since, again, He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell you exactly what they are doing up there in heaven, but they are not sleeping. If they were, then explain this:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Sure looks like the souls of dead believers are alive and alert in heaven to me.

Despite being shown clearly from passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:5-9 that believers are now priests of God and Christ in His kingdom, you still somehow think that believers stop being priests of God and Christ in His kingdom when they physically die and don't become priests of God and Christ again until they are bodily resurrected.

So, let me ask you this. When you physically die do you think you will stop being a Christian until you are bodily resurrected and then you will be a Christian again?

sovereigngrace · Dec 10, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I somehow missed this until now, so that's why my response is delayed.

You apparently believe in the doctrine of soul sleep. Do you not know that soul sleep is considered to be a heretical doctrine? Do you know why? Because God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and He is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32). So, if the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and other believers are sleeping and not alive and alert in heaven then God would not be their God since, again, He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell you exactly what they are doing up there in heaven, but they are not sleeping. If they were, then explain this:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Sure looks like the souls of dead believers are alive and alert in heaven to me.

Despite being shown clearly from passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:5-9 that believers are now priests of God and Christ in His kingdom, you still somehow think that believers stop being priests of God and Christ in His kingdom when they physically die and don't become priests of God and Christ again until they are bodily resurrected.

So, let me ask you this. When you physically die do you think you will stop being a Christian until you are bodily resurrected and then you will be a Christian again?

There were multiple Scriptures presented to him which he failed to address or even acknowledge. Avoidance has become a Premil trait, not merely Pretrib Premil trait.

Timtofly · Dec 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

Satan was this powerless in the Garden of Eden before sin entered the world. I am not sure why you make Satan into some big bad being throughout history.

4 "In fact, it was our diseases he bore,
our pains from which he suffered;
yet we regarded him as punished,
stricken and afflicted by God.
5 But he was wounded because of our crimes,
crushed because of our sins;
the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him,
and by his bruises* we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, went astray;
we turned, each one, to his own way;
yet Adonai laid on him
the guilt of all of us."

This is why there was a Cross. No mention of Satan at all. Satan was defeated prior to the Cross in the Gospels just by the Word of God.

Jesus declared that in the years leading up to the Cross. Trying to make it sound any different is due to your obsession over Revelation 20, and the need for it to be now, and not after the battle of Armageddon, where God's Word places it.

Timtofly · Dec 10, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I somehow missed this until now, so that's why my response is delayed.

You apparently believe in the doctrine of soul sleep. Do you not know that soul sleep is considered to be a heretical doctrine? Do you know why? Because God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and He is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matt 22:32). So, if the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and other believers are sleeping and not alive and alert in heaven then God would not be their God since, again, He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Do you understand what I'm saying? I can't tell you exactly what they are doing up there in heaven, but they are not sleeping. If they were, then explain this:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Sure looks like the souls of dead believers are alive and alert in heaven to me.

Despite being shown clearly from passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:5-9 that believers are now priests of God and Christ in His kingdom, you still somehow think that believers stop being priests of God and Christ in His kingdom when they physically die and don't become priests of God and Christ again until they are bodily resurrected.

So, let me ask you this. When you physically die do you think you will stop being a Christian until you are bodily resurrected and then you will be a Christian again?

The point is they enjoy life bodily now, not that their souls are asleep. They are bodily priests and kings, not as souls, priests and kings.

Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

:sighing:

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