Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

JacksBratt said:

Your argument is dead. Soon as you state "Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints."

I supported my view by using scripture.

So, my point is that Satan can and will be bound for 1000 years. Also, he is, obviously, not bound now.

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fwGod said:

You are mistaken, a former pre-tribber has no authority from which to prove the pretribulation rapture theology to be wrong.

It's only those who have have another theology who futilely seek to prove that the pre-tib rapture theology to be wrong. But yet you don't give any of your other theology in which to prove the ptrt to be wrong.

So you have nothing to prove.
To someone who already believes it to be wrong, then no scripture provided in support will be accepted. However, that doesn't prove it to be wrong.

It only proves that one who doesn't accept the scriptural support is wrong.
You assume that you are posting on behalf of all who would be reading the thread, and your post to me.

No, I post my responses just to you, not everyone believes as you do. As to that.. you have not given your position and theology of belief. For instance you have not offered how your theology differs from mine. You've only criticized mine.

Therefore, if you are going to have opinions on mine, then I will not give details until after you do of your theology so we can be on an equal level where I can have opinions about yours.
I have no idea what it is that you refer to as a third coming. According to your example..

* a rapture.
* a 7 year tribulation.
* it's only three comings if the birth of Christ were counted as #1. Then the rapture would be #2. Then the final coming at the end of the Tribulation would be #3.
But since you didn't include the birth of Christ, your third coming has to come from your lack of Biblical terminology understanding.

Which indicates to me that you wouldn't be entirely capable of authoritatively pronouncing the pre-trib rapture theology as wrong.

Which makes me wonder if you really were formally of pre-trib rapture belief.

This means that you will have to first prove that you were by showing capable understanding of the pre-trib rapture theology.

And therefore if you can, then I am not obligated to answer your challenge to prove the pre-trib rapture theology to you.

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Jaxxi said:

The rapture happens way before all this takes place. Is that what you are showing? If so I agree. This event is not when we meet the Lord in the air. The event you describe is The Day of the Lord.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Yes, I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I also believe in a Mid Trib gathering of the elect by angels, as well.

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Jaxxi said:

That is precisely the rapture event spoken of and it is also referred to in Revelation when Jesus says "Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. " Revelation 3:10

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Also here
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” Luke 17:34-37

The rapture and the Second Coming are 2 different events. One is Jesus coming to get His church. The other is His coming when He comes for battle.

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Bible Highlighter said:

The Day of the Lord is a period of time.

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friend of said:

@sovereigngrace none of those verses are talking about The Tribulation nor The Great Tribulation. They are talking about common hardships we all experience here.

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Douggg said:

Satan was thrown out of the third heaven when he first rebelled and the third of the angels with him.

The Revelation 12 heaven is the second heaven - i.e. the cosmos.

The time/times/half time is not the New Testament age. Satan cast down to earth, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, is the third woe, of Revelation 8:13.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

time/times/half time term is found three places in the bible.

Daniel 7:25
Daniel 12:7
Revelation 12:14

All three apply to the Jews the hardship they will endure during the second half of the seven years.

And fit within the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. The seven years of that framework.

And the message Jesus gave to the Jews for the end times in Matthew 24:15-31.

Which the season, it will all happen is the parable of the fig tree generation, again contingent on the Jews, Jerusalem, which the Jews gained control of Jerusalem again in 1967.

And the 70 weeks (shemittah's) of Daniel 9 apply to the Jews (Daniel's people) and Jerusalem.

What does it take for you, BaB2, mkgal1, jgr, and post tribbers, no tribbers, and the like to see the light?

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sovereigngrace said:

We are in the tribulation. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of Christ's harvest not the last fruits as you suggest. You CANNOT even show any mention of the Church being raptured in Revelation 4-6. All you can do is cut and paste what you have been taught. That may satisfy the indoctrinated Pretribber, but not the objective Berean. What is more, you are totally ignoring every point i am making. That is the only way Pretrib can survive. I have showed you that contrary to what your teachers have taught you, the Church is found on earth (and in heaven) throughout Revelation 4-19. Here is the ignored evidence again:

The Church throughout the Word is shown to be made up of the “saints” (Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9), the “redeemed” (Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4), “them which are saved” (Revelation 21:24), the “brethren” (Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9), the “chosen (or elect), and faithful” (Revelation 17:4), “servants” of God (Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is the “woman” (Revelation 12:1,4, 6, 13, 15, 16 and 17), “the bride” of Christ (Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17), “the Lamb's wife” (Revelation 19:7 and 21:9), “the temple” (Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

They are those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14), and are now “kings and priests” (Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6), they are the “souls” in heaven (Revelation 6:9 and 20:4), the “fellowservants” (Revelation 6:11). God calls them as “my people” (Revelation 18:4) and “his people” (Revelation 21:3).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church relates to those “that overcometh” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7), and “that watcheth, and keepeth their garments” (Revelation 16:15), “they that do/keep God’s commandments” (Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14), and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” (Revelation 21:27).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as “the dead which die in the Lord” (Revelation 14:13), as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark” (Revelation 15:2), “much people in heaven” (Revelation 19:1), who are “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), and are “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9), and are “the armies which were in heaven” (Revelation 19:14).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

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Douggg said:

Satan was thrown out of the third heaven when he first rebelled and the third of the angels with him.

The Revelation 12 heaven is the second heaven - i.e. the cosmos.

The time/times/half time is not the New Testament age. Satan cast down to earth, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, is the third woe, of Revelation 8:13.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

time/times/half time term is found three places in the bible.

Daniel 7:25
Daniel 12:7
Revelation 12:14

All three apply to the Jews the hardship they will endure during the second half of the seven years.

And fit within the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. The seven years of that framework.

And the message Jesus gave to the Jews for the end times in Matthew 24:15-31.

Which the season, it will all happen is the parable of the fig tree generation, again contingent on the Jews, Jerusalem, which the Jews gained control of Jerusalem again in 1967.

And the 70 weeks (shemittah's) of Daniel 9 apply to the Jews (Daniel's people) and Jerusalem.

What does it take for you, BaB2, mkgal1, jgr, and post tribbers, no tribbers, and the like to see the light?

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Spiritual Jew said:

If someone can read all that and still conclude that the church "isn't mentioned in most of Revelation" then they are spiritually blind. The idea that the church isn't mentioned in most of Revelation is a very bad joke and is clearly a lie. How can anyone take that seriously while maintaining their dignity?

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Jaxxi said:

That is precisely the rapture event spoken of and it is also referred to in Revelation when Jesus says "Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. " Revelation 3:10

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Also here
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” Luke 17:34-37

The rapture and the Second Coming are 2 different events. One is Jesus coming to get His church. The other is His coming when He comes for battle.

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Spiritual Jew said:

This verse does not support a pre-trib rapture at all. The Greek word translated as "keep" in that verse is tēreō (Strong's G5083) and the Greek work translated as "from" is ek (Strong's G1537).

The same phrase is found in John 17:15.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (tēreō) them from (ek) the evil.

Can you see here that Jesus prayed for the exact opposite of what you think He said in Revelation 3:10? Why would He say something in Rev 3:10 that would contradict what He said in John 17:15? He wouldn't.

Why would Jesus pray that the Father would not take His followers out of the world, but instead to keep or protect them from evil while still in the world and then in another verse say that they would be taken out of the world in order to be kept from evil? That makes no sense. You need to allow scripture to interpret scripture here. There's no reason to think that Jesus meant something different in Revelation 3:10 than what He said in John 17:15. Clearly, God is quite capable of protecting us from evil while we're still in the world without the need to take us out of the world.

If you read 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 as one narrative as intended then you should see that both will happen at the same time. Don't be fooled by the unnecessary chapter break between 1 Thess 4 and 5. That whole passage shows what will happen to believers on the day He returns and also what will happen to unbelievers on that day.

The following passage does the same thing:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Can you see here that on the same day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" He will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"? Surely, the day He comes "to be glorified in his saints" is the day of the rapture. Wouldn't you agree? How could it not be? This passage clearly shows that Christ will punish His enemies on that same day.

Regarding one taken and one left, what do you think Jesus meant when He said "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather"? That reminds me of Revelation 19:11-21. He was talking figuratively there about the same thing John wrote about here:

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This is a figurative reference to the complete destruction that will occur on the day Christ returns. One person will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air while the other will be destroyed. That is what the one taken and one left means. It has nothing to do with anyone being left behind and allowed to continue living their lives. No way. They will wish that to be true, but when Christ comes, He will gather His own to Himself and then take vengeance on His enemies.

Look at this passage which also shows the context of one being taken and one being left.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Can you see here how Jesus said it will be just like in Noah's day? What happened then? Jesus said that people didn't know what was coming and then "the flood came and took them all away". It killed all of them except Noah and his family. Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"? What does that mean? It means just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day, all unbelievers will be killed when the Son of man comes. It's the same thing Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-7. So, that is the context for one being taken and one being left. One will be safely gathered to Christ "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17) and the other will be killed. It couldn't be more clear that this is what Jesus was saying. And, as He said in Matthew 24:29-31, His coming will be "AFTER the tribulation of those days".

There is just no biblical support for a pre-trib rapture when you hold that doctrine under close scrutiny.

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Jaxxi said:

I believe the first coming is not His birth but is the rapture which the dead in Christ rise first and then the believers are caught up in the air. This is when the church is pulled from the earth. The Antichrist cannot come to power while the church is still on the earth. Once it is gone we will see the AntiChrist rise out of Pakistan Those are just my beliefs.

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Jaxxi said:

I believe the first coming is not His birth but is the rapture which the dead in Christ rise first and then the believers are caught up in the air. This is when the church is pulled from the earth. The Antichrist cannot come to power while the church is still on the earth. Once it is gone we will see the AntiChrist rise out of Pakistan Those are just my beliefs.

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Jaxxi said:

That is precisely the rapture event spoken of and it is also referred to in Revelation when Jesus says "Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. " Revelation 3:10
Also here
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” Luke 17:34-37

The rapture and the Second Coming are 2 different events. One is Jesus coming to get His church. The other is His coming when He comes for battle.

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Spiritual Jew said:

Why would believers suddenly not have to go through tribulation during a future short time period after believers have been going through tribulation for thousands of years up to that point? Please explain how that makes any sense at all.

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sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.

Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.

They need to see that the subject matter (namely the keeping) in Revelation 3:10 is reciprocal: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee.” Jesus was telling them: because the church in Philadelphia had been faithful, Christ was going to be faithful in return. He is basically promising to safeguard or watch over His faithful flock. This was an actual literal promise to an existing church 2,000 yrs ago. But Pretrib makes this promise totally irrelevant to the ones it was actually directed towards. They render it a worthless and baseless assurance.



Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

“one shall taken, and the other shall be left”

If we look closer at this passage we learn, “in that night (when He shall Come) there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other shall be afetheésetai (or) left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other afetheésetai (or) left.”

It is interesting when we look at the meaning of this Greek word paraleemftheésetai used here. Strong’s says that it indicates, “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as ‘receive’, ‘take unto’ or ‘take with’. The company that are therefore received by Christ in this passage are those that have been brought into an intimate mystical union with Him through salvation; they are His elect. This narrative is unquestionably referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the lamb.

This is the same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and paraleémpsomai (or) receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Interestingly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word afetheésetai, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory.

No one that has taken the time to examine the meaning of the Greek words for “taken” and “left” can surely deny that the definition of “taken” is manifestly positive and the definition of “left” is patently negative.

Q. What then happens to those left behind?

A. The Lord’s solemn warning in the midst of the aforementioned narrative confirms the answer, and is in complete agreement with Christ’s unambiguous preceding comments in the same chapter, and every other explicit passage in Scripture. He makes it abundantly clear that instant and complete destruction befalls the wicked. He solemnly counsels the disciples, “Remember Lot's wife.”

Remember Lot's

Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?

She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.

What Christ is therefore warning in this reading is this: ‘Remember Lot's wife because she was found wanting on the day when God finally poured out His judgment upon the wicked; be warned because His second coming will similarly expose the heart of every hypocrite, although on this occasion it will be for the very final time. Those left behind will face the same punishment as Lot’s wife – total destruction.

When Noah left the world of his day and entered into the ark
there were many left lying in beds and grinding at mills to receive
the wrath of God and therefore destruction. The same happened in Lot's day. The same will happen at Christ's Coming.

After Christ described the destruction that accompanies His return, He talks about one being rescued the other being destroyed. Jesus tells us that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together

The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The eagles devour those left behind. Rev 19 correlates.

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Jaxxi said:

Ok so if it is post trib, then why would Jesus have believers caught up in the air with Him AND believers having their heads cut off for not worshipping the beast? That doesn't make sense.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

Those who were beheaded were tortured for 10 days prior as well so....Wouldn't they ALL have been beheaded, as I am sure that no one from the rapture will be taking the mark of the beast or worshipping the antichrist.

I believe the first coming is not His birth but is the rapture which the dead in Christ rise first and then the believers are caught up in the air. This is when the church is pulled from the earth. The Antichrist cannot come to power while the church is still on the earth. Once it is gone we will see the AntiChrist rise out of Pakistan Those are just my beliefs.

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