Who is THE RESTRAINER

Douggg · Dec 3, 2020

Berean Tim said:
Seems pretty clear, that day (our being gathered together to him) won't happen until sometime after the mid-point

Tim, it is the day of the Lord that begins somewhere in the middle of the 7 years.

The rapture could be anytime before then.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Berean Tim · Dec 3, 2020

Douggg said:
Tim, it is the day of the Lord that begins somewhere in the middle of the 7 years.

The rapture could be anytime before then.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 aligns with Matthew 24:29-31 "After the tribulation of those days" What days ? The days of Matthew 24:15 The days of the AOD
It really straight forward

Douggg · Dec 3, 2020

Berean Tim said:
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 aligns with Matthew 24:29-31 "After the tribulation of those days" What days ? The days of Matthew 24:15 The days of the AOD
It really straight forward

Tim, the gathering of the elect in v31 is not the rapture/resurrection. It is the gathering of the Jews, the completion of, back to the land of Israel.

It corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28, which Jesus leaves none of the house of Israel in the nations.

In 1Thessalonians5, it indicates that the rapture is before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which contains God's wrath.

________________________________________

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians, on how to escape going through the great tribulation by the rapture. The parable of the fig tree is so that we can know the season.

Berean Tim · Dec 3, 2020

Douggg said:
Tim, the gathering of the elect in v31 is not the rapture/resurrection. It is the gathering of the Jews, the completion of, back to the land of Israel.

It corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28, which Jesus leaves none of the house of Israel in the nations.

In 1Thessalonians5, it indicates that the rapture is before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which contains God's wrath.

________________________________________

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Differently, Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians, on how to escape going through the great tribulation by the rapture. The parable of the fig tree is so that we can know the season.

View attachment 289966

Matthew 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It's not just from Israel. "sending his angels" is a perfect picture of (harpazo)

From Strong's # 726
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

God's wrath starts after the 7th Seal is opened. That's clearly stated in Revelation 6:16-1716calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Where in 2 Peter 3:8 does Peter claim the Day with the Lord is as 3.5 years? Peter claims it is as 1000 years. The Millennium may start at the 6th Seal, but it goes on for 1000 years, not just 3.5. Besides that 3.5 years keeps shrinking each day. Some readers may have to sit through Satan's 42 months which is a fixed 42 months. Not sure why some want to be around where there is no righteousness, and no Holy Spirit present, though.

Then you have a problem. The Scriptures say that “the day of the LORD” is darkness and not light.

“Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.” (Amos 5:18).

Do you believe the time of the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ is a time of darkness?
So this leads me to believe that 1,000 years is a day to God is merely His perception of things.

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It's a departing from the faith.
use context and think about how that makes sense.
Paul is saying that the Lord cannot come back and gather us to Him until.... .... the Lord comes back and gathers us to Him?
all of these misidentified parts of 2 Thessalonians 2 don't make sense when you take the verses in context and realize their dependencies on each other.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 is referring back to 1 Thessalonians 4, the rapture passage. Paul is saying that has not happened yet because some people were worried they missed it (2 Thessalonians 2:2), Paul further explains that it CANNOT happen until 2 prerequisite conditions are met first: Apostasy, that is people leaving the faith, and the rise of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
So let's be clear about this, Paul is saying that the rapture cannot happen, until two things happen first.
You cannot have one of those two things happening first be the rapture itself, otherwise there are no prerequisite conditions and what Paul said makes no sense.
Then Paul goes into saying that the revealing of the man of sin, ALSO has a prerequisite condition.
Since the Rapture is the end of this chain of events of prerequisite condition for man of sin, which is a prerequisite condition for rapture... the rapture of the saints cannot be the restrainer that is the prerequisite condition of the antichrist being revealed, otherwise it again makes no sense.

If Paul was teaching an imminent pre tribulation rapture, all he'd have had to have said is "no, the rapture hasn't happened yet, I'm still here, but it could happen at any time!"

The Second Coming and the rapture happens at the same time. They are not separate events, one preceding the other. Satan is the 2500 year old "man of sin". But Satan is going to present the FP first to the world. The FP will have plenty of power and authority, due to the religious vacuum caused by God on the throne and the Lamb appearing on earth at the Second Coming. Since the church is complete, and glorified, the Holy Spirit will not be a factor. The angels are also coming to transport souls, as the final harvest is carried out. All souls will have experienced physical, bodily death by the time the battle of Armageddon is over.

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Douggg said:
Differently, Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians, on how to escape going through the great tribulation by the rapture. The parable of the fig tree is so that we can know the season.

Christians do not need to learn how to escape. The lost need to accept Christ to escape. The message is to those not in Christ, that they are running out of time to accept Christ. Those who wait till the last minute to accept God, are not going to make it. There is no last minute to prepare for. Once it happens, it is already too late.

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Berean Tim said:
Matthew 24:31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It's not just from Israel. "sending his angels" is a perfect picture of (harpazo)

From Strong's # 726
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

God's wrath starts after the 7th Seal is opened. That's clearly stated in Revelation 6:16-1716calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

No, the wrath is in the vials, or the winepress at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Judgment started with the first Seal. Tribulation of the house of Jacob starts at the 1st Trumpet. There is no fixed time for the Trumpets and Thunders in years. When God declares the end of time at the start of the 7th Trumpet, the harvest is already finished. Any souls left alive on earth will be handed over to Satan for 42 months.

Berean Tim · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
No, the wrath is in the vials, or the winepress at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Judgment started with the first Seal. Tribulation of the house of Jacob starts at the 1st Trumpet. There is no fixed time for the Trumpets and Thunders in years. When God declares the end of time at the start of the 7th Trumpet, the harvest is already finished. Any souls left alive on earth will be handed over to Satan for 42 months.

Your disagreement is with the scripture I quoted

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Then you have a problem. The Scriptures say that “the day of the LORD” is darkness and not light.

“Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.” (Amos 5:18).

Do you believe the time of the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ is a time of darkness?
So this leads me to believe that 1,000 years is a day to God is merely His perception of things.

Do you believe the last 3 Days of the Lord has been darkness to the house of Jacob?

Israel was judged almost 3000 years ago. Have they been in physical darkness that whole time?

Well you can spend those 1000 years in darkness or condemn others, but those days have come and gone. The dry bones of Israel's time of darkness will be resurrected, and they will live with Christ for 1000 years. Yes, to them, the 1000 years will seem like 1000 years. Or maybe just a day. You are looking for darkness, so I guess not a time for you?

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Berean Tim said:
Your disagreement is with the scripture I quoted

No, I disagree with your interpretation, and obviously you disagree with my interpretation. God on the throne and the Lamb are present on earth. That is the Second Coming. No where does it say any one is even harmed or killed. If they were dead, they would not be crying out in fear. Several years later and still not dead, they are deceived by Satan to totally reject God, and many do, even having seen God in this physical form on the throne.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Do you believe the last 3 Days of the Lord has been darkness to the house of Jacob?

Israel was judged almost 3000 years ago. Have they been in physical darkness that whole time?

Well you can spend those 1000 years in darkness or condemn others, but those days have come and gone. The dry bones of Israel's time of darkness will be resurrected, and they will live with Christ for 1000 years. Yes, to them, the 1000 years will seem like 1000 years. Or maybe just a day. You are looking for darkness, so I guess not a time for you?

Amos 5:18 is prophetic. Also, 2 Thessalonians 2 is Paul trying to comfort the Thessalonians about how they are not in the period of time known as the Day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (NLT) (Note: The KJB says Day of Christ in verse 2).

Berean Tim · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
No, I disagree with your interpretation, and obviously you disagree with my interpretation. God on the throne and the Lamb are present on earth. That is the Second Coming. No where does it say any one is even harmed or killed. If they were dead, they would not be crying out in fear. Several years later and still not dead, they are deceived by Satan to totally reject God, and many do, even having seen God in this physical form on the throne.

It doesn't say anyone is killed just the Wrath has come.
Rev 6:17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Jamdoc · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Second Coming and the rapture happens at the same time. They are not separate events, one preceding the other. Satan is the 2500 year old "man of sin". But Satan is going to present the FP first to the world. The FP will have plenty of power and authority, due to the religious vacuum caused by God on the throne and the Lamb appearing on earth at the Second Coming. Since the church is complete, and glorified, the Holy Spirit will not be a factor. The angels are also coming to transport souls, as the final harvest is carried out. All souls will have experienced physical, bodily death by the time the battle of Armageddon is over.

Doesn't line up with Matthew 24:22

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation shows Jesus appearing in the clouds before the wrath of God twice. Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20. 2 narratives of the same events, showing Jesus "cutting short" the tribulations, and in the second one, showing a harvest that is not put through the wrath of God, and then beginning the wrath of God on those on the earth.
Why does He cut short the tribulations? So that we don't all die.
Want a second witness to establish the truth?
1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Not everyone will die. Some people will just change from mortal to immortal without ever dying.

Jamdoc · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
No, the wrath is in the vials, or the winepress at the end of the 7th Trumpet. Judgment started with the first Seal. Tribulation of the house of Jacob starts at the 1st Trumpet. There is no fixed time for the Trumpets and Thunders in years. When God declares the end of time at the start of the 7th Trumpet, the harvest is already finished. Any souls left alive on earth will be handed over to Satan for 42 months.

The insanity that happens when you do not rightly divide the words of truth...
No man, Jesus does not come back and claim the kingdoms of the world to rule for ever and ever in Revelation 11:15, and then immediately hand over sovereignty to the beast for 42 months.
Revelation 12 is not a continuation of a Chronological narrative, it's a reset. You can plainly see this because it starts over at the birth of Christ.
It should also be plainly seen because in Revelation 11:18-19, you have the final judgement of the dead. The same final judgement of the dead as in Revelation 20 before the great white throne.
Revelation is NOT one chronological order book. This is why it's confusing to you, this is why it's so hard to understand for many people, because they try to read it like a novel. Rather than a few different prophetic visions.
Revelation 10:7

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This is also a clue, to tell us that the 7th trumpet is the end of the wrath of God, and that after it, Jesus claims the world as His kingdom

Clare73 · Dec 3, 2020

Tra Phull said:
In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?

The restrainer is angels?. . .Rev 7:1-3.
.

Douggg · Dec 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Christians do not need to learn how to escape. The lost need to accept Christ to escape. The message is to those not in Christ, that they are running out of time to accept Christ. Those who wait till the last minute to accept God, are not going to make it. There is no last minute to prepare for. Once it happens, it is already too late.

Where in Matthew 24:32-51 is there any message to non-Christians to accept Christ?

The verses in Matthew 24:32-51 are based on a person being a Christian already.

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Amos 5:18 is prophetic. Also, 2 Thessalonians 2 is Paul trying to comfort the Thessalonians about how they are not in the period of time known as the Day of the Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (NLT) (Note: The KJB says Day of Christ in verse 2).

Israel in the last 50+ years has been coming out of the darkness.

Timtofly · Dec 3, 2020

Berean Tim said:
It doesn't say anyone is killed just the Wrath has come.
Rev 6:17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

When I look at God on the throne, Wrath is not what I see. I see Love and Forgiveness.

Timtofly · Dec 4, 2020

Jamdoc said:
hy does He cut short the tribulations? So that we don't all die.

It is the end of Adam's sin and death. All will die. The point about being saved is more people will accept the Atonement and become in Christ. That Salvation, not talking about physical death. All will physically die. Some to eternal life, and most to eternal damnation. Only those in Christ alive will be changed without dying. The rest will die during the final harvest. Most, during the last 42 months or the battle of Armageddon.

Who is THE RESTRAINER

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