Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟17,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Okay. So is the idea that if the man who has sinned mortally does not repent then he will not be saved, and therefore his salvation comes to depend on his repentance rather than on God's grace?

I think the issue is that I don't believe that a doctrine of mortal sin is compatible with the all-sufficiency of Christ's atonement for the sins of his people. So the idea that one can sin mortally simply doesn't exist to begin with.

Why couldn't the assurance of the elect entail that any of the elect who sin mortally will also repent of their sin? I think one could accept the doctrine of mortal sin and still hold that the elect will be saved.

Mortal sin, granted for argument's sake, wouldn't necessarily be at odds with election provided that none of the elect die with mortal sin. However, I don't think the doctrine of mortal sin is taught in Scripture nor does it comport with what the Scripture teaches about Christ's atonement.
 
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟17,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Thank you for sharing. Would you provide your interpretation of these verses in their context so I can understand your conclusion?
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
34
Shropshire
✟186,379.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
the atoning work of Christ, which satisfied the wrath of God against all of the sins of his elect

Where's the biblical reference for that assertion? Christ died for all, not for a mystical "elect".

Of course, if you believe in an "elect" - a select few who are predestined to heaven as distinct from everyone else who are hellbound - you have to say that there is no such thing as a mortal sin because the idea of one of the "elect" commiting a mortal sin does not compute. The concept of someone predestined to go to heaven but committing a sin that prevents that is self-contradictory. But of course we are all sinners and are all capable of the same sins. But Jesus died for us all and so we can all repent and all be saved.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,905
3,531
✟323,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I'm not so sure the context matters much, straightforward as they are. They align, however, with other Scripture such as the new covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33, where, again, God does what man cannot do on his own; He justifies man.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."


And they give understanding to the following, showing how the righteousness those verses speak of is accomplished in the following verses, but the right way now:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:20

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
Matt 19:17

"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Matt 22:37-40

The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:9-10

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5
 
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟17,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I'm not so sure the context matters much, straightforward as they are.

The context is of the utmost importance! Mind you, I'm not asking what the text says, but what the text means. Deducing meaning requires an interpretive process. Your reasoning through the context of a passage helps me, who cannot read minds, understand how you've come to your conclusions. This gives me substance to respond to and helps me appreciate your thoughts. Otherwise, I'm just going to interpret the passages the way I'm used to and we'll be at an impasse. I know it's probably frustrating to explain things that appear "straightforward", but if the right interpretation were always so obvious, we wouldn't be having this discussion. At least grant me some idea of how you see Romans 8:12-13 and 1 John 1:7 so I engage you more accurately. :)
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? This doctrine is often associated with Catholicism and says that some sins are so grievous as to require a special form of repentance or reparation.

According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder. Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith. The closest scriptural parallel is 1 John 5:16-17.

This is just the basic idea, and this thread isn't meant to be about Catholicism or the specific Catholic understanding which involves sacramental confession and the like. This basic doctrine of mortal sin entails only a few things besides mortal sin. They are: venial sin, the state of grace, and the state of sin. I think most denominations hold to this doctrine in one form or another.

I have scrutinized the doctrine to some extent and I find that I am content with it. There are obviously pros and cons:


Cons and Objections
  • Emphasis is placed on the human act and one's ability to place themselves outside of salvation.
  • It may lead to a scrupulosity which focuses more on sin than on God.
  • It may lead to undue self-referentiality about the state of one's soul.
  • Without an authoritative legislator it is hard to understand which sins are mortal and which are venial.

Pros
  • The gravity of certain sins is emphasized. This is intuitive and follows the OT logic of differentiating based on the sin in question.
  • The doctrine threads a needle between the errors of presumption and despair.
  • It brings a concreteness to one's religious life that makes it much harder to deceive oneself.
  • The doctrine appears to be indispensable for the vast majority of Christians, namely those who reject both Universalism and OSAS ("Once-saved, Always-saved").
Jesus Christ said that Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Matthew 12:31

This is the unforgivable sin.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,826
3,406
✟244,283.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I think the issue is that I don't believe that a doctrine of mortal sin is compatible with the all-sufficiency of Christ's atonement for the sins of his people. So the idea that one can sin mortally simply doesn't exist to begin with.

Okay, interesting.

Mortal sin, granted for argument's sake, wouldn't necessarily be at odds with election provided that none of the elect die with mortal sin. However, I don't think the doctrine of mortal sin is taught in Scripture nor does it comport with what the Scripture teaches about Christ's atonement.

What do you make of this verse?

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." (1 John 5:16-17, RSV)​
 
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟17,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Where's the biblical reference for that assertion? Christ died for all, not for a mystical "elect".

John's gospel is illustrative of this point in several places.

John 6:37-40 (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Passage outline:
  1. Whoever the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son (v37a).
  2. Whoever comes to the Son will not be cast out by the Son (v37b).
  3. The Son cannot lose whoever the Father gives to the Son (39b).
  4. Whoever the Father gives to the Son will be raised by the Son (39c, 40c).
  5. Whoever believes in the Son will have eternal life (40b).
Conclusions:

Whoever the Father gives to the Son will, inevitably come to the Son. Coming to the Son results in: 1) not being cast out, 2) not being lost, 3) being raised up, and 4) having eternal life. This is salvation. Those whom the Father gives to the Son are the elect. All the elect will be saved. Not all are the elect because not all will be saved. Therefore, salvation is secured by the Son for the Father's elect only.

John 10:14-16, 25-29 (ESV)
14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Passage outline:
  1. The Son has a flock of sheep (v14).
  2. The Son lays down his life for these sheep (v15b).
  3. The Son has other sheep who will be gathered together with these sheep into one flock (v16).
  4. Those who do not believe the Son are not his sheep (v26).
  5. The Son's sheep hear his voice and follow him (27a, c).
  6. The Son grants eternal life to these sheep (28a).
  7. The sheep which belong to the Son will neither perish (v28b) nor be lost (v28c).
  8. The sheep which belong to the Son are given to the Son by the Father (29a).
Conclusions:

The Son has a flock of sheep for whom he willingly lays down his life. The Son's sheep are those who 1) respond to his voice, 2) follow him, 3) receive eternal life, 4) never perish, and 5) are never lost. The Father is the one who gives these sheep to the Son. The sheep are the elect. The Son dies and accomplishes salvation for the elect only. Note that those who do not believe were never among the sheep (elect) for whom the Son dies.

John 17:1-3, 6, 9-10, 20-24 (ESV)
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Passage outline:
  1. The Son gives eternal life to all whom the Father has given to the Son (v2b).
  2. The substance of eternal life is knowing God through Christ (v3).
  3. The Son revealed himself during his ministry to those whom the Father gave him (v6).
  4. The Son intercedes only for those whom the Father has given him (v9).
  5. Those whom the Father gives the Son belong to both the Father and the Son (v10).
  6. The Son intercedes not only for his disciples but for all who will believe in him (v20).
  7. The Son desires that his people be united together, in the Son, and in the Father (v21-23).
  8. These people (v20) have also been given to the Son by the Father (v24).

Conclusions:

The Son desires to give eternal life to all whom the Father has given him. These are the elect. The Son, functioning as high priest, intercedes only on behalf of the elect. He does not intercede for all men because he does not give eternal life to all men. Furthermore, the Son intercedes for all who will believe the words of his disciples and desires that they be one, like the Father and the Son to whom they jointly belong. Those who will believe have already been given to the Son by the Father and are also among the elect.

Of course, if you believe in an "elect" - a select few who are predestined to heaven as distinct from everyone else who are hellbound - you have to say that there is no such thing as a mortal sin because the idea of one of the "elect" commiting a mortal sin does not compute. The concept of someone predestined to go to heaven but committing a sin that prevents that is self-contradictory.

I agree. Mortal sin is not compatible with the doctrines of grace.

But of course we are all sinners and are all capable of the same sins. But Jesus died for us all and so we can all repent and all be saved.

I see four conceivable options regarding the atonement. Christ satisfied the wrath of God for:
  1. All sins of all men
  2. Some sins of all men
  3. Some sins of some men
  4. All sins of some men
The first option gives us universalism, which is prohibited by Scripture. The second and third options render Christ a failed savior, for the sins of no men are atoned for in full and no one is saved. The fourth option is Biblical and is what is called definite atonement or particular redemption. I suspect you see another option and am happy to hear your position.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟17,001.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
What do you make of this verse?

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." (1 John 5:16-17, RSV)​

In verse 16a, I think John is referring to a believer in Christ (hence "brother") who falls into sin. He exhorts other believers to lift this brother up in prayer, asking God to forgive him and restore him into fellowship. In verse 16b, contrast is made with "sin which is mortal" (RSV) or "sin that leads to death" (ESV). Notice that John does not use "brother" in reference to "sin that leads to death". He merely mentions that such sin exists, but does not identify who commits this sin. Who then commits "sin that leads to death"? I think we can reasonably infer that it is those who persist in unrepentant sin. In other words, unbelievers who walk in darkness (1 John 1:6) and recant the Gospel (1 John 2:19).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,826
3,406
✟244,283.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
In verse 16a, I think John is referring to a believer in Christ (hence "brother") who falls into sin. He exhorts other believers to lift this brother up in prayer, asking God to forgive him and restore him into fellowship. In verse 16b, contrast is made with "sin which is mortal" (RSV) or "sin that leads to death" (ESV). Notice that John does not use "brother" in reference to "sin that leads to death". He merely mentions that such sin exists, but does not identify who commits this sin. Who then commits "sin that leads to death"? I think we can reasonably infer that it is those who persist in unrepentant sin. In other words, those who walk in darkness (1 John 1:6) and reject the Gospel (1 John 2:19).

I think you give a strained exegesis here. Making 16b completely distinct from 16a is a strange reading of the text. As I see it, this is the logic of the text: "If you see your brother sinning and the sin is not deadly, then pray and he will be given life. If the sin is deadly then do not pray for him." The idea that 16b refers to a completely different object than 16a makes the text strangely disjointed, as if their juxtaposition is entirely coincidental. That is, you are claiming on the basis of an argument from silence that 16b refers not to a "brother" but to an outsider, an unbeliever, the unrepentant, etc. I think it is an undue warping of the text, particularly when the entire chapter is centered on believers (apart from 10b and 12b).

Granted, 1 John is a polemical letter, and theology of "the elect" is probably at work in the background, but at the same time it is undeniable that the author distinguishes deadly from non-deadly sin in vv. 16-17.

In general I find it unproductive to argue with those who hold to OSAS because no matter what I say--and no matter what scripture is produced (e.g. Hebrews 6:4-6)--the answer is always, "Oh, those who fell away were not part of the Elect." It seems that your principle that the Elect never stumble and require repentance is both unfalsifiable and unScriptural. That is, scripture nowhere supports this doctrine of yours, even if for the sake of argument we posit that it nowhere denies it.

Let me put this question to you: If scripture did teach mortal sin, what would it say? What would that teaching look like? (My guess is that your answer would be, "There is sin which, unrepented of, leads to death. The non-Elect will commit such sins and fall away. The Elect may commit such sins, but if they do, they will repent and be restored.")
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PaulCyp1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2018
1,075
849
78
Massachusetts
✟239,255.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
While not everyone may use the same terminology, any rational person knows that murder or rape is far more serious than stealing a dollar. Someone who steals a dollar and doesn't repent of that sin may still be saved, but someone who rapes or murders and doesn't repent will certainly not be saved. The confusion is due to the "once saved always saved" nonsense created by Protestants a few hundred years ago, which no Christian on Earth ever heard of prior to that time. The original and true Christian Church, to which Jesus promised the fullness of God's truth until the end of time, has a consistently taught for 2,000 years that no-one is saved until they enter Heaven. While on Earth, any human being can turn away from God and forfeit salvation, or turn to God and be saved, at any time in their life.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
All the same, I think distinctions, such as those between mortal and venial sin, are still possible and useful. Your idea reminds me of something like the Sorites paradox, where a certain vagueness in definition or knowledge is said to prevent a distinction altogether. Yet we can say with confidence that--ceteris paribus--to murder someone is more grievous than to steal half a day's wage from them.
Yes, something like that. Intuitively, we consider murder worse than theft, and I am generally in favour of such moral distinctions. In fact, that is how I generally argue that there must be a real moral order, as some things are just clearly worse than others (feeding as opposed to hurting a child, say). But beyond realising the malevolent nature of a sin, can we finely grade them at all? Heading into Catholic territory, what of concepts such as the Cardinal Sins? Are these not sins that lead to, and generate, other sin? Many of them seem intuitively venial, such as Pride. What is the thinking of that classification versus the mortal/venial one? But then, mortal sins can seem venial at the time, perhaps - here I would think of something like the Golden Calf, which would be idolatry (presumably mortal) but to Aaron, he was making an image of 'the God that led us from Egypt'. He was trying to worship God, but that sin of not trusting to Moses' return or the providence of God, lead to idolatry. Can a venial sin not really then be a mortal one, if the root of greater sin? If the severity of the sin is judged on the object and not the intention, then the well-intentioned Aaron's sin is thus that much worse? Good intentions pave the way to Hell, indeed.

If we can't differentiate sin and we can't give a special priority to the evil of the proximate act itself (as opposed to its unintended consequences) then I'm not sure the moral understanding of life will survive. The key with respect to culpability is the act itself and the intended consequences, not unintended or unforeseen consequences. Morality really needs to focus on that aspect of malice or selfishness, and the danger of Dostoevsky's principle is that it draws us away from that.
Why must the proximate act take precedence? The question here is what is the problem with sin? Is its immediate results the issue, or its ultimate potential to bring distance between us and God? As was pointed out earlier in the thread, Adam willingly ate the fruit in the garden, and that act has had the unintended consequence of all further sin. The act of disobeying God is put in the shadow by the consequences of the Fall, and like the Cardinal sins (which I would assume this to be a species of Pride and Greed, maybe?), the innocuous was far worse. This is also intuitive, as for instance the Nazi idealogue pushing for racial purity is generally considered more to blame than the SS grunt that carried it out. In my latter example it was perhaps intentional, but what of the potential of consequence is known, even if unintended? Here for instance, I would think of someone watching inappropriate contentography, and thus tacitly accepting the potential fact that it might have been exploitative or paying for further production of such? I would make perhaps a differentiation between Justice, which would focus on the act; and sin, which is more of a stain spread over spiritual communion between God and man, no? I don't agree that morality should focus on malice, which seems more at play if you are seeking punitive measures or retribution, acting in Law. Doestoyevsky's principle draws us away from that, I agree, but did Jesus not say to turn the other cheek and remove the beam from your own eye? To return to another of his works, Crime and Punishment, that crime is more Transgression in the Russian supposedly, to overstep, and it was Raskolnikov's supposed good ends, but also the malice of the pawnbroker, that made him commit the crime.

I do not think it is at all clear that sin is based on individual culpability scripturally. What about all that about reckoning the sins of the fathers onto his descendants for 7 generations? Or original sin, for that matter. The legal metaphor is an easy one to apply, but I am not sure that is what is going on here at all. Is sin not when you do not love God or your neighbour, the image of God? Is it not staining or obscuring your own status as the image of God? True, it is thus selfishness, but why must there be intentionality, unless you are intent to set-up a penitentiary framework? So I think the difference here may lie deeper, that I do not fear Doestoyevsky's principle, as I do not think that it draws away from selfishness - it focuses on it, as it shows that it is not just about me, but about everyone else. It is Father Zosima vs Father Ferrapont in Brothers Karamazov, the more indulgent acceptor of sin unto himself vs the harsh ascetic - Jesus and John the baptist also spring to mind. But then, I am Protestant, so the sacrament of Penitence is foreign to my thinking in general, and I can see how it can confuse sin and forgiveness into an accountant's ledger. However, reifying the principle into concrete things, tablets of stone, is needed for a moral code as you noted with an 'external legislator' - as humans are not always so good with such things. This makes me think again of CS Lewis's bit about the difference between Protestants and Catholics:

The one suspects that all spiritual gifts are falsely claimed if they cannot be embodied in bricks and mortar, or official positions, or institutions: the other, that nothing retains its spirituality if incarnation is pushed to that degree and in that way. The difference about Papal infallibility is simply a form of this. The proper corruptions of each Church tell the same tale. When Catholicism goes bad it becomes the world-old, world-wide religio of amulets and holy places and priestcraft; Protestantism, in its corresponding decay, becomes a vague mist of ethical platitudes


The other point is that it isn't clear why the doctrine entails a "decision to label some sin less than another" rather than a decision to label some sin more than another. A common Lutheran objection would be just the opposite, that the doctrine of mortal sin leads people to believe they are in danger of Hell when in fact they are not. I take it that the same point could be applied to Dostoevsky's idea. Sinful acts could lead to good outcomes, such as that "felix culpa."
Okay, if you differentiate one as more, the other automatically becomes less. Ultimately what saves from Hell is grace, so this runs against the old grace vs works narrative again. If you deny that works save, then they also don't condemn in the face of grace? A bad work, a mortal sin, should be powerless before real grace then. The Lutheran objection is not just that people falsely believe themselves condemned, but that this suggests that human depravity can somehow overpower God's grace.

But can sinful acts result in good? I am not so sure. The only way I think they could be, is by allowing God's grace, so the only felix culpa could be Adam's leading to the incarnation, or Judas' leading to the Crucifixion. Throttling baby Hitlers in the crib is an unknown and unknowable quantity, and generally sin seems to beget sin, unless by Grace of God. I have no reason to think a good outcome would ever result from a sin, and even if it did, perhaps it would have been better otherwise.
Perhaps a good way to approach the issue is to ask, "Is someone who believes in mortal sin and venial sin better off than either someone who believes only in mortal sin or else someone who believes only in venial sin?"
This looks a fruitful avenue to investigate. Only mortal and one assumes a harsh legalist, only venial and a universalist. But this assumes that sin must be either mortal or venial - I would assume sin to be both mortal and venial in a sense, in that the wages thereof are death, but that those wages were paid for on the Cross. If the goal is to embody Christ, then all sin is to be avoided, but if we have failed from the weakness of our flesh, to return penitently to Him. Maybe not someone believing in mortal sin and venial sin, but in mortal venial sin. I don't know, how do we test this? By their fruits? Would that not deteriorate into this denomination is more holy than that one, which seems again to feel Pharisaical.

I don't know, I'll mull on this. I still feel that the immediate act is less than the totality of its effects within holistic creation, and that judgement is of course only God's to make. But as you say, that is very consequence-based, and moral evil should be judged on its spiritual stain to that being, perhaps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Regarding the specifically Catholic understanding of venial sin, it is admittedly difficult. First, mortal sin is sin qua sin. Venial sin is some watered-down version of sin. Catholicism follows St. Augustine who says that (mortal) sin is, "An utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law" (Catholic Catechism, 1871). According to the Catholic Encyclopedia venial sin is then, "a thought, word or deed at variance with the law of God" (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sin).

Continuing with this idea that mortal sin is perfect sin and venial sin is imperfect sin, there are different ways that mortal sin could become imperfect or watered down. One example would be the way that the Old Testament distinguishes between intentional and accidental killing, where the punishment or sacrifice required for the accidental homicide is significantly reduced. Two important mitigating factors for Catholicism are a lack of knowledge or a lack of consent, "One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent" (Catholic Catechism, 1862).

Following St. Thomas Aquinas, the more technical way to distinguish mortal sin from venial sin is by recourse to reparability. "Accordingly, mortal and venial are mutually opposed as reparable and irreparable: and I say this with reference to the intrinsic principle, but not to the Divine power, which can repair all diseases, whether of the body or of the soul" (Summa: Venial and Mortal Sin). Mortal sin is deadly in that it attacks the very heart of the Christian life. It is an injury so serious that it can only be healed by God and if it is not healed we will undergo spiritual death. Venial sin is an injury that is not deadly and which can be healed or repaired without God's help (so to speak) because it is not an act directly contrary to God's law.

If I am understanding this correctly, then the difference is more degree than kind? That venial sin is sin inchoate, that may then develop into a full mortal variety? So is the classification of sins as mortal or venial not then essentially just shorthand, so that a theft might be mortal as directly "contrary to God's Law" as in the 10 commandments, unless done without full knowledge or understanding of the consequence thereof? How is something at variance vs contrary, as any wrong could then be or become mortal, too. Is a knowing theft of a chocolate bar not then mortal, or is there not an implied additional dimension in practice, where the act itself is also differentiated out by value or severity - so that theft of a chocolate is venial, but theft of someone's house might not be? If the person judges the sin of lower value, is that sin then really so? I mean, many people might pinch a chocolate, but would balk at stealing something larger, say. What I mean is that would the finality of the act to that person then render it mortal, being a full rejection to them of some point of God's law? And if they feel it not so, or judge it not at variance, would we be judging it from an external standard? I doubt many Catholics would judge stealing a chocolate as placing them mortally wounded before God, in the way they might judge an abortion or murder, for instance.

I am getting a bit muddled by the whole concept, and would like some clarity. For instance, the Catholic Church is opposed to abortion as presumably a mortal sin, and pro-choice catholics are likely aware of this. Could they then not argue it venial, on grounds of mixed signals from liberal clergy or society in general, if they even consider it sin - or would the severity of the infringement render it mortal, regardless?
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,308.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
The classic Protestant objection isn't to mortal sin, but to venial. In effect, Protestant theology considers all sin mortal. I’ve come increasingly to doubt this approach, but that's probably not relevant here. Protestants certainly recognize that sins are different in their effects on others, and may well be treated differently in Church discipline, but those aren’t the contexts for the traditional Catholic distinction.

Personally, my objection is that it's trying to produce a legalistic treatment of something where that approach doesn't work.

The argument seems to be that some sins create a break in our relationship to God in a way that others don’t. Many people think a life of continuing sin can cause a Christian to lose faith and thus salvation. Personally, I’m not sure whether sin is a cause or a symptom in this kind of situation, but certainly people do fall away. At any rate, I don’t think that a checklist of potentially mortal sins is likely to be a good way to describe this process. I doubt that it’s the best way to deal with it pastorally either.

The problem is compounded by the flavor of the traditional lists. While there doesn’t seem to be an official list of mortal sins, they seem to be skewed towards a legalistic approach to sex. For example, the CCC says that masturbation falls into the category that is mortal, if the person's knowledge and intention meets the qualifications. When combined with the traditional approach to confession and penance, this kind of inflation of what is mortal becomes part of a mode of Church control of people’s lives with which I disagree. (I note that traditional approach seems mainly dead in the US.)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,826
3,406
✟244,283.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Thanks for your post, Hedrick.

The classic Protestant objection isn't to mortal sin, but to venial. In effect, Protestant theology considers all sin mortal.

Between you and @St_Worm2 it seems that there is certainly something to this. I believe I recall @ViaCrucis making the same point awhile back as well.

Personally, my objection is that it's trying to produce a legalistic treatment of something where that approach doesn't work.

I take this to be an important objection, particularly in the Catholic context that you focus on. At the same time, I would like to hear more about why you think the approach doesn't work. I'm also curious to know both why you think it doesn't work in a Catholic context and also why you think it doesn't work in a non-Catholic context.

These are the reasons you gave which I can identify:
  • A "checklist" approach is problematic.
  • Inflation of what is considered mortal sin is problematic in a Catholic context, particularly insofar as it leads to Church control over people's lives.
  • A good example of this inflation occurs in the realm of sexual sin.

The problem is compounded by the flavor of the traditional lists. While there doesn’t seem to be an official list of mortal sins, they seem to be skewed towards a legalistic approach to sex. For example, the CCC says that masturbation falls into the category that is mortal, if the person's knowledge and intention meets the qualifications. When combined with the traditional approach to confession and penance, this kind of inflation of what is mortal becomes part of a mode of Church control of people’s lives with which I disagree. (I note that traditional approach seems mainly dead in the US.)

Yes, this would be a very common criticism of the doctrine of mortal sin in the Catholic context. The traditional response would say it is not so much that there is an intrinsic emphasis on sexual sin, but rather that the prevalence and normalization of sexual sin in our age requires a special response. Nevertheless, it is a complicated topic.

It seems to me that the most important question here is whether anything can be said to be a mortal sin in an objective sense (and whether a Church can make definitive judgments on what is a mortal sin). In the Catholic sense we would be asking whether anything has intrinsically grave matter. One liberal Catholic answer in the negative came in the form of the "Fundamental Option" which attempts to focus more on the trajectory of one's life rather than individual choices made (see Veritatis Splendor #65-70).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,428
26,868
Pacific Northwest
✟731,414.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The Lutheran assertion is that any sin which leads to death is indeed mortal or deadly sin. It is "sin that leads unto death". And in the Lutheran Confessions it is plainly taught that faith and mortal sin cannot coexist; namely that mortal sin drives away faith (Smalcald Articles, Part III, Article III, 43). It is mortal not because of the mere gravity of the sin, but because it drives away faith and thus leads to death. So that the unrepentant murderer has cast out faith. This does not mean that one who commits murder cannot be forgiven, for there lay repentance and the gifts and promises of Christ, such as we read, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

Any sin can be mortal if it drives out and shipwrecks our faith. And without faith we are hopeless and lost.

The reason it is not the mere gravity of the sin that must be regarded, is simple and obvious: For we have God's promise and grace that all our sins are forgiven in, through, and by Christ.

Thus Luther can say to Philip Melancthon,

"It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?"

The blood of Christ covers all sins, even the most grievous of sins. Thus we should not imagine that any sin can destroy the love of God in Christ, and the gracious promises of the Gospel for sinners.

It is that mortal sin drives out faith, and thus drives us away from Christ; that is why we must put our whole trust in Christ and the Gospel, and contend daily against the old man, drowning him in repentance. That sin may not rise up, shipwreck us, and drive us away from Christ our Anchor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,905
3,531
✟323,113.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The context is of the utmost importance! Mind you, I'm not asking what the text says, but what the text means. Deducing meaning requires an interpretive process. Your reasoning through the context of a passage helps me, who cannot read minds, understand how you've come to your conclusions. This gives me substance to respond to and helps me appreciate your thoughts. Otherwise, I'm just going to interpret the passages the way I'm used to and we'll be at an impasse. I know it's probably frustrating to explain things that appear "straightforward", but if the right interpretation were always so obvious, we wouldn't be having this discussion. At least grant me some idea of how you see Romans 8:12-13 and 1 John 1:7 so I engage you more accurately. :)
Thank you- that was a thoughtful reply. And, yes, context is very important. And of course the author's intent is what we're looking for. My thought on these passages was that context didn't change the plain reading of them. I then offered other passages that corroborate or support that position in one manner or another.

So...Romans 8:12-13 maintains that we must put to death the misdeeds of the flesh, i.e. overcome sin with the help of the Spirit (now available to the newly justified person as a result of God's indwelling, a relationship made possible via faith in response to grace). In context the passage comes across as an admonition, for an obligation required in order to gain eternal life. This is consistent with the other passages I listed later, as well as ancient church teachings.

Similarly 1 John 1:7 echoes the fact that God (Jesus) does the purifying (justifying) of man, both passages consistent also with the prophecy of Jer 31. And both passages make clear that this is contingent, on our participation.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? This doctrine is often associated with Catholicism and says that some sins are so grievous as to require a special form of repentance or reparation.

According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder. Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith. The closest scriptural parallel is 1 John 5:16-17.

This is just the basic idea, and this thread isn't meant to be about Catholicism or the specific Catholic understanding which involves sacramental confession and the like. This basic doctrine of mortal sin entails only a few things besides mortal sin. They are: venial sin, the state of grace, and the state of sin. I think most denominations hold to this doctrine in one form or another.

I have scrutinized the doctrine to some extent and I find that I am content with it. There are obviously pros and cons:


Cons and Objections
  • Emphasis is placed on the human act and one's ability to place themselves outside of salvation.
  • It may lead to a scrupulosity which focuses more on sin than on God.
  • It may lead to undue self-referentiality about the state of one's soul.
  • Without an authoritative legislator it is hard to understand which sins are mortal and which are venial.

Pros
  • The gravity of certain sins is emphasized. This is intuitive and follows the OT logic of differentiating based on the sin in question.
  • The doctrine threads a needle between the errors of presumption and despair.
  • It brings a concreteness to one's religious life that makes it much harder to deceive oneself.
  • The doctrine appears to be indispensable for the vast majority of Christians, namely those who reject both Universalism and OSAS ("Once-saved, Always-saved").


All sin is mortal! That is why Jesus died for every sin!

Romans 6:

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

sin is singular- all sin produces death, not just the dirty dozen nasty nine, terrible ten, eckky eleven.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,308.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
At the same time, I would like to hear more about why you think the approach doesn't work. I'm also curious to know both why you think it doesn't work in a Catholic context and also why you think it doesn't work in a non-Catholic context.
I tend towards the traditional Protestant concept of justification by /pistis/. Note that /pistis/ can just as well be translated faithfulness as faith. I think it represents what one might call an “orientation,” which is the same as Jesus’ talk about being a follower. Until the last couple of decades, Protestants used to argue that good and bad works were a symptom of faith or lack thereof, and that you are better focusing on the cause than the symptoms.

What we do is certainly important. But I think both Paul and Jesus were looking for a specific kind of life. The problem with mortal sins is that it focuses us on specific acts, rather than motivations and patterns. A particularly egregious act may well indicate that one isn’t a follower of Jesus. But when used in Catholic practice of confession, the people involved almost certainly are followers of Jesus. For them the focus shouldn’t be on specific sins as casting doubt on their salvation. Rather, the focus should be on what is happening in their lives as a whole. Sin becomes a symptom, except of course sins that are causing significant problems for those around them need attention for that reason.

I think the traditional Christian focus on counting sins is misplaced. Jesus speaks of sin almost entirely when he talks about forgiveness. He warns people about judgement, but doesn’t use the term sin in that context. His examples seem to be people who either reject the Gospel or live lives opposed in general to God. Paul uses the term sin more, but for him sin is a force that was defeated by Christ, or the term indicates a generic phenomenon. The famous 1 Cor 6:9 is not setting up a system of judging people for specific sins, but rather is describing (and/or calling for) a wholesale change in life.
It seems to me that the most important question here is whether anything can be said to be a mortal sin in an objective sense (and whether a Church can make definitive judgments on what is a mortal sin). In the Catholic sense we would be asking whether anything has intrinsically grave matter. One liberal Catholic answer in the negative came in the form of the "Fundamental Option" which attempts to focus more on the trajectory of one's life rather than individual choices made (see Veritatis Splendor #65-70).
There are certainly things that have more serious consequences for others. That might well affect how pastors counsel people.

But the term "mortal sin" has a more specific meaning. Both in Scripture and in Catholic terms, it is a sin that cuts us off from God. I don't think one can classify individuals sins that way, so no, I don't think in an objective sense we can classify some sins as mortal. Except the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is notoriously hard to define, and certainly isn't the sort of thing we're typically talking about with mortal vs venial sins.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,314
10,596
Georgia
✟910,177.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? This doctrine is often associated with Catholicism and says that some sins are so grievous as to require a special form of repentance or reparation.

According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder. Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith. The closest scriptural parallel is 1 John 5:16-17.

This is just the basic idea, and this thread isn't meant to be about Catholicism or the specific Catholic understanding which involves sacramental confession and the like. This basic doctrine of mortal sin entails only a few things besides mortal sin. They are: venial sin, the state of grace, and the state of sin. I think most denominations hold to this doctrine in one form or another.

A lot of Christian denominations agree with the Catholic denomination about the idea that if someone covets today (for example) it is not the same as poisoning everyone in his neighborhood today (as extreme example).

1 Cor 5 we see someone in the church in such open rebellion that he had to be kicked out of church - dissfellowshipped as many term it. Notice they do not say that nobody else in the church of Corinth sinned that year... but Paul does point to the extreme case where church discipline is then required.

But there is no such thing as a sin that you know about and then choose not to repent of it - that will be "just fine" all the way to heaven. The work of the Holy Spirit is to "convict of sin" and that includes all sin. John 16. The work of the Christian is to submit and repent of each one.

When we confess, and repent and claim God's promises He restores us to faith and fellowship but that does not mean we are lost each time we "covet" or whatever. "If anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father" Jesus Christ - 1 John 2:1. We go directly to Him as our High Priest (Hebrews 4).

But in the Catholic Church there are things that fit into the "do not covet" category for most of us - that they put up there with murder - such as not attending mass one week without a really good excuse. I believe that was a well known "mortal sin" for Catholics a few centuries - but am not sure if it is changed now. I suspect it is changed.

I have scrutinized the doctrine to some extent and I find that I am content with it. There are obviously pros and cons:

Cons and Objections
  • Emphasis is placed on the human act and one's ability to place themselves outside of salvation.
  • It may lead to a scrupulosity which focuses more on sin than on God.
  • It may lead to undue self-referentiality about the state of one's soul.
  • Without an authoritative legislator it is hard to understand which sins are mortal and which are venial.

For most people it does not matter because no matter how you choose to subjectively label it - the solution is always the same -- go to the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5 and confess - and find peace of mind, pardon and restored fellowship. And He won't tell you how He "labeled it" either - just that it is sin and that it is now forgiven.

The Bible says "sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

We have free will - and can choose to repent or not. That choice determines heaven or hell ... even Peter is called "Satan" in Matt 16 when he starts to turn down a wrong path.


Pros
  • The gravity of certain sins is emphasized. This is intuitive and follows the OT logic of differentiating based on the sin in question.
  • The doctrine threads a needle between the errors of presumption and despair.
  • It brings a concreteness to one's religious life that makes it much harder to deceive oneself.
  • The doctrine appears to be indispensable for the vast majority of Christians, namely those who reject both Universalism and OSAS ("Once-saved, Always-saved").

I agree that it supports the Bible doctrine of "forgiveness revoked" that you find in Matt 18 and in Romans 11 and in Ezek 18. So in that sense it is helpful to understand the risk we are in as Christians in the area of being self-deceived and thinking that nothing we do affects our eternal destiny.

In Matt 7 they all say "Lord Lord... did we not do...(many good things)... in YOUR name" - but Jesus said they were self deceived.

1 Cor 6 says "be not deceived" and then says "those who do these sorts of things... do not inherit eternal life". It is talkinga about people in the church... people that were "washed" that were born-again but that had started to do some bad things.

in Christ,

Bob
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0