Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Marilyn C said:

Hi sg,

Scripture tells us that `no prophecy of scripture is of any private, (stand alone) interpretation.` (2 Peter 1: 20)

We are to look at all of God`s word upon the subject.

BTW the trib, is 6 yrs & 11 months. It is cut short if you remember. (Matt. 24: 22)

And the Lord only comes to the earth twice. The other coming at the `catching away,` of the mature Body of Christ, is in the air.

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Please address my enquiry. I will take your avoidance as you have nothing.

Bible Highlighter said:

More Reasons for a Pre-Trib Rapture:

These considerations all arise from the literal method of interpretation.

1) The relation of the Church to governments. This is a very good point. Think about it. In 1 Timothy 2: 1-4 we are instructed to pray for the government and those in authority, and in Romans 13:1, we are told to be in subjection to the governing authorities. Bu in Revelation 13:4 we are told that Satan, the dragon—will control the government during the Tribulation. How could the Church subject herself to a satanic government or pray for it, as we are instructed to now? It could not.

As Dr. Pentecost says, “Because of the relationship of the Church to governments in this age and because of the satanic control of government in the seventieth week, the Church must be delivered before this satanic government manifests itself.”

2) The silence concerning the Tribulation in the Epistles. This could be an interesting study of its own. We find many examples in the Epistles that were written to give help and assistance to the church in how to endure persecution in this age. There is no teaching to the Church for dealing with the most severe persecution men will have ever known—the Tribulation. Dr. Pentecost rightly states “The silence in the Epistles which would leave the church unprepared for the Tribulation argues for her being absent from that period all together.”

3) The waiting remnant at the Second Advent. I have read articles which say that all believers during the Tribulation will be martyred. That notion is false. Many passages like Malachi 3:16; Ezekiel 20:33-38; 37:11-28; Zachariah13:8-9; and Matthew 25:31-40 indicate that there will be a believing remnant in Israel awaiting His return. There will also be a remnant of believing Gentiles who survive the Tribulation. These groups of believers go into the Millennium in their natural bodies, but not having experienced death and resurrection. If the Church were on the earth at the time of the Second Advent (by the post-Trib theory) those people who get saved would be saved into the spiritual Body the Church and be raptured at that time. Consequently, there would not be any saved people left on earth.

Dr. Pentecost rightly states, “These considerations make necessary the Pre-Trib Rapture of the church, so that God may call out and preserve a remnant during the Tribulation in and through whom the promises may be fulfilled.” (The promises in the Abrahamic, Davidic, Palestinic, and new covenants.)

4) The sealed 144,000 from Israel. When a person is saved while the church is still here on earth, he is saved into the church, whether Jew or Gentile, as indicated in Colossians 1:26-29; 3:11; Ephesians 2:14-22; 3:1-7. But during the Tribulation, Revelation 7:14 indicates that 12,000 Jews are saved out of each tribe to a special group of Jews. They are sent as representatives to the nations as witnesses of Christ. The Church was given this instruction to take the gospel to the world, indicating the Church must be absent.

5) The apostasy of the period. It’s often mentioned that the Church is obviously absent from most of Revelation when all the Tribulation events are described taking place on earth. The only organized church mentioned is the Jezebel system, Revelation 2:22; Revelation 17 and 18. The believing witnesses, converted during the period, are said to have kept themselves from defilement by this apostate system, Revelation 14:4.

Dr. Pentecost states, “Since the Church is not mentioned as also having kept herself from this system it must be concluded that the Church is not there.” (The Church has been translated out before the Tribulation.)

These are just a few of the arguments listed in a chapter in Dr. Pentecost’s book.

Source:
Fascinating Arguments for the Pre-Trib Rapture - Rapture Ready

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I'm afraid Dr. Pentecost had no idea of what he was talking about. It mentions "the saints" several times in Revelation and it mentions those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17). How can those not be references to the church?

Bible Highlighter said:

More Reasons for a Pre-Trib Rapture:

These considerations all arise from the literal method of interpretation.

1) The relation of the Church to governments. This is a very good point. Think about it. In 1 Timothy 2: 1-4 we are instructed to pray for the government and those in authority, and in Romans 13:1, we are told to be in subjection to the governing authorities. Bu in Revelation 13:4 we are told that Satan, the dragon—will control the government during the Tribulation. How could the Church subject herself to a satanic government or pray for it, as we are instructed to now? It could not.

As Dr. Pentecost says, “Because of the relationship of the Church to governments in this age and because of the satanic control of government in the seventieth week, the Church must be delivered before this satanic government manifests itself.”

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This is a moot argument and a discredited source. Your so called doctor has been exposed for his error repeatedly. This does not address the enquiry or prove the Pretrib boast. It is another avoidance.

2) The silence concerning the Tribulation in the Epistles. This could be an interesting study of its own. We find many examples in the Epistles that were written to give help and assistance to the church in how to endure persecution in this age. There is no teaching to the Church for dealing with the most severe persecution men will have ever known—the Tribulation. Dr. Pentecost rightly states “The silence in the Epistles which would leave the church unprepared for the Tribulation argues for her being absent from that period all together.”

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You seem to have more faith in Dwight Pentecost than you do in the Bible.

God has always protected His people when He poured out His wrath. Why would He not do the same in our case? The tribulation period is about the wrath of Satan/antichrist. Yes. God always preserves His people in times of hardship. Revelation is an extremely figurative book. It is saturated in symbolism. I believe these are symbolic plagues (lent from Israel's experience in Egypt when God poured out literal plagues in His wrath on the enemy) to impress the truth and reality of God's preservation for us today.

Let us look at the words of Jesus in John 16:33. He declared, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

So if we substitute the word “tribulation” with the word “wrath” then Jesus is saying: ‘In the world ye shall have wrath: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world’. Of course this is absurd. The tribulation that Satan pours out on the Church in the intra-Advent period is completely different from the wrath God pours out on the wicked on the final day. There are 2 completely diverse protagonist and 2 completely diverse recipients. As for the 7 year tribulation, it does exist. It is not biblical but an extra-biblical Pretrib invention that arose in 1830.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:10-13, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

The word translated "narrow" in our King James Version here is the Greek word thlibo, which elsewhere in Scripture carries the meaning of afflicted, suffering, tribulation and troubled. So, when the passage says “narrow is the way” we could rightly interpret it “tribulation is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” This is the norm for a Christian. The true blood-bought member of the redeemed Church enters tribulation through salvation. This is an ongoing reality, not a future hope as you suggest.

Jesus said in John 15:18-20, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you."

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Paul testified in 1 Thessalonians 3:4: “we told you before that we should suffer tribulation.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

II Corinthians 4:8-10 says, "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake"

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

I Peter 4:12-16 says, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. "

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

Michael Collum said:

Rapture is a relatively new idea since it was coined from a latin word - so it doesn't fall under the same category as Baptism and Resurrection.

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Jesus taught on it about 30AD in the Olivet Discourse. The Latin was 4th century. Not really new

@sovereigngrace none of those verses are talking about The Tribulation nor The Great Tribulation. They are talking about common hardships we all experience here.

sovereigngrace said:

The original is not Latin. Keep to the English or the Greek please. Pretrib carries no biblical support in any version. It is a Jesuit invention.

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Pre-trib is a Jesuit invention? Who knew?
.

Bible Highlighter said:

There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

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Here's a good movie on the Rapture. It goes through 7 Pre Trib problems. It's over two hours but can be watch in sections
https://7pretribproblems.com/

Bible Highlighter said:

3) The waiting remnant at the Second Advent. I have read articles which say that all believers during the Tribulation will be martyred. That notion is false. Many passages like Malachi 3:16; Ezekiel 20:33-38; 37:11-28; Zachariah13:8-9; and Matthew 25:31-40 indicate that there will be a believing remnant in Israel awaiting His return. There will also be a remnant of believing Gentiles who survive the Tribulation. These groups of believers go into the Millennium in their natural bodies, but not having experienced death and resurrection. If the Church were on the earth at the time of the Second Advent (by the post-Trib theory) those people who get saved would be saved into the spiritual Body the Church and be raptured at that time. Consequently, there would not be any saved people left on earth.

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Again, all personal opinion and no biblical quotes. This is the Pretrib way. You refuse to quote the passages because they do not say what you say.

We are in the tribulation now. The Church has always been in tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Dr. Pentecost rightly states, “These considerations make necessary the Pre-Trib Rapture of the church, so that God may call out and preserve a remnant during the Tribulation in and through whom the promises may be fulfilled.” (The promises in the Abrahamic, Davidic, Palestinic, and new covenants.)

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What saith "Dr." Pentecost is obviously your mantra. Posttriberrs believe in what saith the Scriptures. This explains why Pretribbers are so messed up in their theology.

4) The sealed 144,000 from Israel. When a person is saved while the church is still here on earth, he is saved into the church, whether Jew or Gentile, as indicated in Colossians 1:26-29; 3:11; Ephesians 2:14-22; 3:1-7. But during the Tribulation, Revelation 7:14 indicates that 12,000 Jews are saved out of each tribe to a special group of Jews. They are sent as representatives to the nations as witnesses of Christ. The Church was given this instruction to take the gospel to the world, indicating the Church must be absent.

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We are in the tribulation. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of Christ's harvest not the last fruits as you suggest.

5) The apostasy of the period. It’s often mentioned that the Church is obviously absent from most of Revelation when all the Tribulation events are described taking place on earth. The only organized church mentioned is the Jezebel system, Revelation 2:22; Revelation 17 and 18. The believing witnesses, converted during the period, are said to have kept themselves from defilement by this apostate system, Revelation 14:4.

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You CANNOT even show any mention of the Church being raptured in Revelation 4-6. All you can do is cut and paste what you have been taught. That may satisfy the indoctrinated Pretribber, but not the objective Berean. What is more, you are totally ignoring every point i am making. That is the only way Pretrib can survive. I have showed you that contrary to what your teachers have taught you, the Church is found on earth (and in heaven) throughout Revelation 4-19. Here is the ignored evidence again:

The Church throughout the Word is shown to be made up of the “saints” (Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9), the “redeemed” (Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4), “them which are saved” (Revelation 21:24), the “brethren” (Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9), the “chosen (or elect), and faithful” (Revelation 17:4), “servants” of God (Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is the “woman” (Revelation 12:1,4, 6, 13, 15, 16 and 17), “the bride” of Christ (Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17), “the Lamb's wife” (Revelation 19:7 and 21:9), “the temple” (Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

They are those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14), and are now “kings and priests” (Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6), they are the “souls” in heaven (Revelation 6:9 and 20:4), the “fellowservants” (Revelation 6:11). God calls them as “my people” (Revelation 18:4) and “his people” (Revelation 21:3).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church relates to those “that overcometh” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7), and “that watcheth, and keepeth their garments” (Revelation 16:15), “they that do/keep God’s commandments” (Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14), and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” (Revelation 21:27).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as “the dead which die in the Lord” (Revelation 14:13), as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark” (Revelation 15:2), “much people in heaven” (Revelation 19:1), who are “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), and are “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9), and are “the armies which were in heaven” (Revelation 19:14).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

Dr. Pentecost states, “Since the Church is not mentioned as also having kept herself from this system it must be concluded that the Church is not there.” (The Church has been translated out before the Tribulation.)

These are just a few of the arguments listed in a chapter in Dr. Pentecost’s book.

Source:
Fascinating Arguments for the Pre-Trib Rapture - Rapture Ready

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"Dr." Pentecost seems to be your source of all truth. He has been long-discredited as a false teacher. This explains why you have nothing of Scripture to support your teaching.

friend of said:

@sovereigngrace none of those verses are talking about The Tribulation nor The Great Tribulation. They are talking about common hardships we all experience here.

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Really? Where is your proof of that? All I see is false Pretrib charges and zero Scripture.

Whatever. I bet you cant prove that any of those verses you mentioned in post 123 are specifically referring to "The Tribulation" or "The Great Tribulation"

All they do is reference the kind of tribulation common to all followers of Christ. That's it. Prove otherwise.

sovereigngrace said:

And what is your point? Obviously you cannot even get past this first simple truth. Please address the Scriptures that forbid your teaching and stop avoiding.

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Your argument is dead. Soon as you state "Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints."

I supported my view by using scripture.

So, my point is that Satan can and will be bound for 1000 years. Also, he is, obviously, not bound now.

Spiritual Jew said:

If you understood that he was cast out of heaven when Christ ascended there then you would know that the "time, times and half a time" is a figurative term for the New Testament time period.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

The Greek word translated as "little" when it says Satan has but a "little" time is oligos. The same word is used here:

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

The word is normally used to refer to a relatively small or limited number and not to a literal small number. In Matt 22:14 it's used to refer to a large number (a multitude, millions?) because it's referring to all of those who are chosen for salvation. It's relatively few in relation to the many, but still is not a literally small number.

Similarly, Satan's time that he is allowed to persecute the church is not literally short, but is limited. We know that in the end he will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10).

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Satan was thrown out of the third heaven when he first rebelled and the third of the angels with him.

The Revelation 12 heaven is the second heaven - i.e. the cosmos.

The time/times/half time is not the New Testament age. Satan cast down to earth, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, is the third woe, of Revelation 8:13.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

time/times/half time term is found three places in the bible.

Daniel 7:25
Daniel 12:7
Revelation 12:14

All three apply to the Jews the hardship they will endure during the second half of the seven years.

And fit within the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. The seven years of that framework.

And the message Jesus gave to the Jews for the end times in Matthew 24:15-31.

Which the season, it will all happen is the parable of the fig tree generation, again contingent on the Jews, Jerusalem, which the Jews gained control of Jerusalem again in 1967.

And the 70 weeks (shemittah's) of Daniel 9 apply to the Jews (Daniel's people) and Jerusalem.

What does it take for you, BaB2, mkgal1, jgr, and post tribbers, no tribbers, and the like to see the light?

grafted branch said:

Do you have any scripture to support that idea? From Hebrews 10:12-13 it says He remains seated.

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I'm sorry. I don't see where it states "remains". The thought of Christ sitting in one place for 2000 years... is daunting to me. Also, He is omnipresent as well. In no way does this contradict Him meeting us in the air.

Spiritual Jew said:

Did the binding with everlasting chains of the fallen angels prevent them from doing anything at all? Clearly not! That verse actually supports what we Amils believe about the nature of Satan's binding. It has nothing to do with preventing him from doing anything at all.

And, by the way, Satan was one of those angels "who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling". That describes all fallen angels. All of them are bound with everlasting chains for judgment. That is figurative language to describe the fact that their fate is already sealed for judgment day.

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Yes, the angels that are bound.. have done nothing for all this time:

For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment (2 Pet 2:4, HCSB).

sovereigngrace said:

Really? Many of us former Pretribbers have proved that to be wrong.

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You are mistaken, a former pre-tribber has no authority from which to prove the pretribulation rapture theology to be wrong.

It's only those who have have another theology who futilely seek to prove that the pre-tib rapture theology to be wrong. But yet you don't give any of your other theology in which to prove the ptrt to be wrong.

So you have nothing to prove.

It is easier trying to get blood out of a stone as trying to get Pretribbers to provide clear Scripture to support their teaching.

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To someone who already believes it to be wrong, then no scripture provided in support will be accepted. However, that doesn't prove it to be wrong.

It only proves that one who doesn't accept the scriptural support is wrong.

I will try again:

Can you furnish us

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You assume that you are posting on behalf of all who would be reading the thread, and your post to me.

No, I post my responses just to you, not everyone believes as you do. As to that.. you have not given your position and theology of belief. For instance you have not offered how your theology differs from mine. You've only criticized mine.

Therefore, if you are going to have opinions on mine, then I will not give details until after you do of your theology so we can be on an equal level where I can have opinions about yours.

with one single proof-text anywhere that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming?

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I have no idea what it is that you refer to as a third coming. According to your example..

* a rapture.
* a 7 year tribulation.
* it's only three comings if the birth of Christ were counted as #1. Then the rapture would be #2. Then the final coming at the end of the Tribulation would be #3.
But since you didn't include the birth of Christ, your third coming has to come from your lack of Biblical terminology understanding.

Which indicates to me that you wouldn't be entirely capable of authoritatively pronouncing the pre-trib rapture theology as wrong.

Which makes me wonder if you really were formally of pre-trib rapture belief.

This means that you will have to first prove that you were by showing capable understanding of the pre-trib rapture theology.

And therefore if you can, then I am not obligated to answer your challenge to prove the pre-trib rapture theology to you.

Bible Highlighter said:

There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

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That is precisely the rapture event spoken of and it is also referred to in Revelation when Jesus says "Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. " Revelation 3:10
Also here
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” Luke 17:34-37

The rapture and the Second Coming are 2 different events. One is Jesus coming to get His church. The other is His coming when He comes for battle.

Bible Highlighter said:

Post Trib does not make any sense.
In this view, you have to fit these events in a short span of time.

1. Jesus descends from Heaven and meets the saints in the air.
2. Then later He rides a white horse down from Heaven and the saints are following Him.

Also, God's people are not appointed unto Wrath.
We can pray so as to escape all the things mentioned by Jesus Himself in regards to the things in Tribulation. No man knows the day or the hour.

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The rapture happens way before all this takes place. Is that what you are showing? If so I agree. This event is not when we meet the Lord in the air. The event you describe is The Day of the Lord.

Douggg said:

Satan was thrown out of the third heaven when he first rebelled and the third of the angels with him.

The Revelation 12 heaven is the second heaven - i.e. the cosmos.

The time/times/half time is not the New Testament age. Satan cast down to earth, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, is the third woe, of Revelation 8:13.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

time/times/half time term is found three places in the bible.

Daniel 7:25
Daniel 12:7
Revelation 12:14

All three apply to the Jews the hardship they will endure during the second half of the seven years.

And fit within the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. The seven years of that framework.

And the message Jesus gave to the Jews for the end times in Matthew 24:15-31.

Which the season, it will all happen is the parable of the fig tree generation, again contingent on the Jews, Jerusalem, which the Jews gained control of Jerusalem again in 1967.

And the 70 weeks (shemittah's) of Daniel 9 apply to the Jews (Daniel's people) and Jerusalem.

What does it take for you, BaB2, mkgal1, jgr, and post tribbers, no tribbers, and the like to see the light?

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What will it take for you to see the light that the New Testament, which includes the book of Revelation, is not all about Israel but is rather all about Jesus Christ and His church consisting of Jew and Gentile believers? Your nation of Israel-centric doctrine contradicts the entire New Testament. None of us want to ever see the "light" of your false doctrine.

JacksBratt said:

Yes, the angels that are bound.. have done nothing for all this time:

For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment (2 Pet 2:4, HCSB).

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Where is your evidence for that? Which fallen angels don't fit that description given there? They all do. Yet, they clearly have not been inactive. You are missing the figurative language there. They are only bound figuratively in the sense that they are reserved for punishment on judgment day and there's nothing they can do about that. But, that doesn't mean they are unable to do anything in the meantime.