Discerning between the Holy Spirit and counterfeits (e.g. Kundalini)?

Carl Emerson said:

I am not making such a claim...

I am responding to your assertion -

"Ask yourself why you only hear about miracles today with zero documented evidence? Why did Paul put his sick friends on medicine in the epistles if healing continued as they say it does today?"

This is clearly wrong.

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You need to prove the gifts that were meant to be seen can be seen today or back off.

Dave L said:

You need to prove the gifts that were meant to be seen can be seen today or back off.

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The atheists want a lot of proof before they can believe too, why not just believe a little in christians that tell you they witnessed healings and things the Holy spirit have done.

If a pastor shows some kind of gifts, they a 'psychic' in your eyes, or from the devil.

If a person tells you they had an ailment since they were a child and it went away from what it was like a word of science, they are probably lying or something...

If you feel the presence of God... that is fuzzy feeilngs, and physical sensations and emotions...

And God forbid God tells something to someone, you need to see the shrink right?

Carl Emerson said:

I have presented evidence - I am not boasting except in Christ and His great mercy - I have waited 40 years before beginning to speak about what God has done and is doing - These things happen in private - I dont care if you believe me or not.

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I believed you until this post.

Yet, even now that I cant trust your words......I can still trust the Word of God....which states that there is nothing impossible for him. And no one can convince me that there is something that He cannot do.

If you would read, more carefully the dialogue between myself and @Dave L you would see and he would attest that I believe miracle happen the same today as they did 2000 years ago.

aiki said:

4.) What is the “baptism of the Spirit”?

The answer to this question has become increasingly confused in recent times by the erroneous teaching of two baptisms of the Spirit: One to save a person and another to supernaturally empower them. Does the Bible teach two baptisms of the Spirit? No, it doesn't. The phrase “baptism of the Spirit” refers to one's conversion, to the moment when one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus “made alive” unto God spiritually. Nowhere does the Bible teach a second baptism of the Spirit after one's conversion. In fact, the phrase “baptism of the Spirit” itself does not actually appear in the Bible. The following verses are pertinent to this matter:

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The 125 people at Pentecost who were there awaiting the Holy Spirit to fall, were already believers, and already saved, yet the HS came upon them with wind and fire, fulfilling what John the Baptist said, that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with Fire - thus its obvious there is a further infilling, or baptizo in the Greek, an immersion in the HS.

In scripture we see the apostles laying hands on believers who were already saved, for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Everyone gets a measure of the HS at salvation, so the laying on of hands is to be baptized with the HS, to be filled with the HS.

Just one example of this is given below:

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

aiki said:

What about it? Does this passage indicate that the apostles were baptized again in the Spirit? No. It says only that they were filled with the Spirit. If you want to assert that the Spirit came again upon the apostles as in Acts 2, you must explain how the Spirit had left them without the apostles ceasing to be born-again, in Christ, spiritually-regenerate children of God; for it is by the indwelling Holy Spirit that all of these things are accomplished in any saved pers

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Everyone born again has a measure of the Holy Spirit, and being filled with Holy Spirit is being baptized with the HS, just as John prophesied Jesus would do - being filled as opposed to having a measure of the HS.

And it’s the laying on of hands by someone already spirit filled that does it.

To whit:

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

chad kincham said:

Everyone born again has a measure of the Holy Spirit, and being filled with Holy Spirit is being baptized with the HS, just as John prophesied Jesus would do - being filled as opposed to having a measure of the HS.

And it’s the laying on of hands by someone already spirit filled that does it.

To whit:

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

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You can just ask too. Some people didn't even ask they were just filled when they went to a church and just stood there.

aiki said:

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
39 But He (Jesus) answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

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You're off the beam with your proof text.

The sign the evil generation asked for, was for Jesus to prove He was the Messiah, demanded by unbelievers.

As opposed to Jesus saying that those who believe have signs following them, of speaking in tongues and laying hands on the sick and healing them, per Mark 16.

It’s always interesting to see the rationalizations and wrong assertions of those on the outside looking in.

Believers aren’t demanding signs. They don’t need to, because the signs are following them.

aiki said:

What about it? Does this passage indicate that the apostles were baptized again in the Spirit? No. It says only that they were filled with the Spirit. If you want to assert that the Spirit came again upon the apostles as in Acts 2, you must explain how the Spirit had left them without the apostles ceasing to be born-again, in Christ, spiritually-regenerate children of God; for it is by the indwelling Holy Spirit that all of these things are accomplished in any saved person (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13).

No, the Spirit was in them all along, but in response to their prayer filled them, that is, took full control of them, and through them exerted His saving power upon the lost to whom the disciples spoke.



Again, I don't see anywhere in this passage any mention of the "new believers" being baptized a second or third time by the Spirit. In fact, they were only actually spiritually born-again for the first (and only) time after Peter and John told them of the Spirit and the "new believers" received Him at the hands of the apostles.



And, again, there is nothing here in this passage that indicates multiple baptisms in the Spirit. What I read is a description of people being spiritually-regenerated for the first (and only) time by the coming of the Spirit to dwell within them. No where in the NT will you ever read of those indwelt by the Spirit losing the Spirit and then being baptized again by Him. Filled, yes, baptized, no. And these passages you've cited all bear this out. In none of them, is the Spirit re-baptizing anyone.

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You are building the proverbial straw man, then knocking him down.

An analogy of how it works is getting your glass half full at salvation, and later having the glass filled to the brim.

You receive the HS at salvation, but aren’t filled with the HS - as happened in many instances in the NT with the laying on of hands.

Depends who you talk to as you can see here. A few here KNOW they have the real truth and no matter what one says ..its like talking to wall.

Hmm so what are the rules in how the sweet sweet Holy Spirit must move? What do we think happens in Heaven? A bunch of angels standing "holy holy holy" lifeless? Or the ones around the throne always singing holy holy holy?

What ever Christ said it was really the Father so not sure how some by pass won't do Luke 11:13. Strange how Matt 24 ALL is for today but.. Luke 11:13 where how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy Spirit to them that ask. Then to know Christ did just that. He will pray to the Father and He will send you another comforter. "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever." The one who gives the gifts.. that don't happen any more? Still seeing blind see deaf here on and on. Happens right this moment.

Yeah.. lets listen to MAN tell MAN what who why how God and the sweet sweet Holy Spirit really moves..pass. Well all those people that are being talked about here have and do confess Jesus/Yeshua came in the flesh. So what now? STILL not of God? Some how Satan can now confess JESUS is lord and Jesus came in the flesh? NO never!

It is the holy Spirit moving.. some get caught up in the flesh. That does not mean its OOH the devil an evil spirit. You answer to God not to man. You as man don't like it don't believe in it or gifts? Praise GOD! Yeah.. that's it. I've seen some that really truly love the lord..just get up and RUN! I even know Pastors that won't do that...I don't care to. But.. they are not doing to for or about me but the GOD they believe in and love.

Try something. Try reading knowing living 1st Cor 13. Look at things through that then tell me what you really see and NOT looking at. Love tells you. So that really gets kicked to the side. Not believing all things. Are finding seeing faults first. No did we see the GOOD first? He does.. He always does. Proof? Pray and Christ right now how what He sees in you. You know YOU.. do you know how HE sees you? You will think He is lying. How can He not see all the things I do and say and think every day or once a week.. Thats why He died! You are righteous and holy before the Father right now because you believe in Jesus.

So how do you know? Do you know the Holy Spirit? As in did you pray ask the Father for the Holy Spirit? Know Him first. See the good first. Treat others as YOU want to be treated. Just because some believer over reacts or gets into the flesh does NOT mean its of the devil. What HE started in them and you and me HE will not maybe not by our help but HE will finish it.

chad kincham said:

The 125 people at Pentecost who were there awaiting the Holy Spirit to fall, were already believers, and already saved,

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Where is this stated in Scripture? How could they have been saved prior to the atonement of Christ on the cross by which salvation was obtained for the unsaved? There is no salvation apart from the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus. To say otherwise is to preach another Gospel - a version of the Gospel which makes the sacrifice of Christ unnecessary, achievable by other means entirely and is, essentially, blasphemy.

chad kincham said:

yet the HS came upon them with wind and fire, fulfilling what John the Baptist said, that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with Fire - thus its obvious there is a further infilling, or baptizo in the Greek, an immersion in the HS.

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Scripture is replete with verses explicitly teaching that it is by the indwelling of the Spirit that one is spiritually regenerated - born-again (Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.) And this is exactly what Acts 2 portrays. That the Spirit came upon the assembled disciples at Pentecost - that it was not already within them as a divine regenerating agent - clearly indicates they were not yet made alive in Christ.

chad kincham said:

In scripture we see the apostles laying hands on believers who were already saved, for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

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The passages to which you are referring never say these believers were "born-again," or "redeemed," or "converted," or "saved." Where, then, do you get the idea they were saved? As the verses I cited above tell us, there is no spiritual regeneration without the Spirit indwelling a person, which had not happened to any of those upon whom the apostles had laid their hands.

chad kincham said:

Everyone born again has a measure of the Holy Spirit, and being filled with Holy Spirit is being baptized with the HS, just as John prophesied Jesus would do - being filled as opposed to having a measure of the HS.

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The Holy Spirit is a Person, not a gas, or amorphous force. And just like any person, he is all there wherever he is. The Holy Spirit doesn't, then, come into a person piecemeal, giving the new believer a bit of himself, like a slice of pizza. What's more, nowhere in all of Scripture is there a teaching that a born-again person has only "a measure" of the Holy Spirit.

chad kincham said:

You're off the beam with your proof text.

The sign the evil generation asked for, was for Jesus to prove He was the Messiah, demanded by unbelievers.

As opposed to Jesus saying that those who believe have signs following them, of speaking in tongues and laying hands on the sick and healing them, per Mark 16.

It’s always interesting to see the rationalizations and wrong assertions of those on the outside looking in.

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Goodness! The pot calling the kettle black, here!

The Ethiopian eunuch didn't speak in tongues when he was saved. Neither did the Philippian jailer or any of his household. Paul didn't heal sick Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20); he didn't miraculously heal ill Ephaphroditus, either (Philippians 2:25-26), who nearly died from his illness. Paul's answer to an ailing Timothy was to take a little wine for his stomach complaint, not pray in faith for miraculous healing. And no one miraculously healed Dorcas who died. She was later resurrected, but only when Peter showed up (Acts 9:36-42). None of the believers with Dorcas could do anything to prevent her death. And none of them were able to resurrect her, either. Only a specially-empowered apostle was able to do so.

The last half of Mark 16, by the way, is a contested passage, being thought by many Bible scholars to be a later accretion to the Gospel.

chad kincham said:

You are building the proverbial straw man, then knocking him down.

An analogy of how it works is getting your glass half full at salvation, and later having the glass filled to the brim.

You receive the HS at salvation, but aren’t filled with the HS - as happened in many instances in the NT with the laying on of hands.

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??? I've not framed up a Strawman at all. And simply saying I have in no way shows that I have.

There is no one in all of the NT who teaches anything like what you propose here about getting the Holy Spirit in bits and pieces. I already explained - biblically - what being filled with the Spirit is and how it differs from being baptized in the Spirit. Nothing you assert here does anything at all to refute my explanations. You just assert stuff in the above quotation like it is somehow self-evident you are correct. Yikes!

Blade said:

Depends who you talk to as you can see here. A few here KNOW they have the real truth and no matter what one says ..its like talking to wall.

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And they are reading your words and thinking about you the very same thing. You go on in your post to do exactly what you condemn here: You make a bunch of assertions about what is true as if you think you know what the "real truth" is.

Blade said:

Yeah.. lets listen to MAN tell MAN what who why how God and the sweet sweet Holy Spirit really moves..pass.

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But this is what YOU do in your post!

Amazing.

TruthSeek3r said:

1) When the 120 disciples entered the upper room, Jesus had already died, resurrected and ascended to Heaven. And remember that these 120 disciples waited in prayer (and possibly fasting) for about 10 days until the day of Pentecost came. So you have a 10 day gap between Jesus ascending to Heaven and Pentecost. So by your own logic, they were already born-again before Pentecost.

2) Moreover, if what you are saying is true, then it follows that anyone who died before Jesus' resurrection is doomed, including: Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Elijah, etc.

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You have misunderstood my post.

aiki said:

The passages to which you are referring never say these believers were "born-again," or "redeemed," or "converted," or "saved." Where, then, do you get the idea they were saved? As the verses I cited above tell us, there is no spiritual regeneration without the Spirit indwelling a person, which had not happened to any of those upon whom the apostles had laid their hands.

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You just can’t get it, can you?

People were saved by faith that Jesus was Messiah, before His death.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

And Jesus was already in heaven before Pentecost. Do you ever read the Bible? Read Peters sermon on Pentecost day:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Those the apostles laid hands on to be filled with the HS, were said to already be believers in Jesus, or did you not read that part of it?

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


You seem incapable of understanding having the HS vs being filled with the HS.

So be it.

Dave L said:

You need to prove the gifts that were meant to be seen can be seen today or back off.

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Really - that sounds like a threat.

Have you not read my testimony thread here...

Jesus's Ministry

Honestly when you have seen God move like I have you don't worry about theologies - It doesn't concern me one bit that you don't believe in the gifts today.

I was asked to bring evidence and I did.

If that upsets you then it is your issue not mine.

I have just simply prayed for folks in obedience, stuff happens and we should all rejoice. I dont even claim I have a gift of healing, I just pray as led.

I am not sure what I have done wrong that you insist I 'back off', I will never stop testifying to His great Grace and I have been quiet about it for 40 years and now is he time to share.

My Pastor used to say our Church was not within a bulls roar of what we were doing among the street folk - and never once questioned the validity of the work we were doing. Lives were saved, folks were healed, I am not going to argue with what He did and is doing. More than once I have heard the physical cracking of bones coming back into place as His Spirit healed. The room in which a prostitute operated became our chapel and her children attended Sunday School.

I am sorry that you find it hard to accept.

I think the story needs to be told.

RaymondG said:

I believed you until this post.

Yet, even now that I cant trust your words......I can still trust the Word of God....which states that there is nothing impossible for him. And no one can convince me that there is something that He cannot do.

If you would read, more carefully the dialogue between myself and @Dave L you would see and he would attest that I believe miracle happen the same today as they did 2000 years ago.

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Doesn't this mean we are on the same page?

What that I have said do you not believe?

TruthSeek3r said:

My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?

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What those like aiki have revealed from Scripture is how The Holy Spirit in reality operates in a believer on Christ Jesus.

But there exists another 'spirit' in the world, and it is not of Christ (1 John 4:1; 2 Corinthians 11:3-15).

Rolling around in the floor, jumping up and down or shaking uncontrollably, making animal noises, laughing uncontrollably, are not signs from The Holy Spirit. The Biblically illiterate allow themselves to be deceived by sideshows, and that's all those signs are.

I watched one of my psychology professors who was a licensed hypnotist put a student volunteer in a hypnotic trance, and told the student to cluck and act like a chicken. The student did exactly that, and when he awoke he had no clue what he did. Eastern history is full of cases with those put in trances manifesting all sorts of strange behaviors. What that reveals is a connection with the spirits, i.e., demons in the spirit world. Ceremonial magic specifically has the purpose of conjuring up demons. The Ouija board is not a game, it's a channeling outlet.

(Luke 10:17-20) - Jesus gave His servants power over all the enemy. This is the key. Evil spirits cannot come into your life if you don't allow it. You have to invite them in. Playing around with the occult, things like a Quija board, automatic writing, attempting to put yourself into a trance via eastern meditation to allow the so-called "Cosmic" to commune with you, which invites evil spirits, these are all things done by one's own free will. They are asking for it, mostly the deceived do it to see if they can produce mystical experiences and manifestations of that other dimension. The old Indian sweat ceremonies, primitive tribal repetitive dances with monotonous rhythms and beats, sorcery which involves taking drugs to induce altered states, these are old practices involving witchcraft and the occult practiced by pagans of old.

TruthSeek3r said:

What about Acts 4:29-31

29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

What about Acts 8:14-17

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

What about Acts 19:1-7

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

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The idea of prophesying means to speak of the things of God, to teach, with understanding, and those who hear will hear in their own language and dialect of their birth. That is the true Sign of The Holy Spirit working per the Acts 2 chapter according to Apostle Peter. That is not an 'unknown tongue'. There is no such thing written of as an unknown tongue in God's Word. The New Testament Greek of 1 Cor.14 where the KJV translators rendered "unknown" is an ADDITION to Scripture by them. The word in the Greek is actually glossa, which means a naturally acquired known language. Just as many have been duped by the 'taken' doctrine from men by a wrong interpretation of Luke 17, likewise men's doctrines wrongly preach an unknown tongue that does not exist in God's Word.

Carl Emerson said:

Really - that sounds like a threat.

Have you not read my testimony thread here...

Jesus's Ministry

Honestly when you have seen God move like I have you don't worry about theologies - It doesn't concern me one bit that you don't believe in the gifts today.

I was asked to bring evidence and I did.

If that upsets you then it is your issue not mine.

I have just simply prayed for folks in obedience, stuff happens and we should all rejoice. I dont even claim I have a gift of healing, I just pray as led.

I am not sure what I have done wrong that you insist I 'back off', I will never stop testifying to His great Grace and I have been quiet about it for 40 years and now is he time to share.

My Pastor used to say our Church was not within a bulls roar of what we were doing among the street folk - and never once questioned the validity of the work we were doing. Lives were saved, folks were healed, I am not going to argue with what He did and is doing. More than once I have heard the physical cracking of bones coming back into place as His Spirit healed. The room in which a prostitute operated became our chapel and her children attended Sunday School.

I am sorry that you find it hard to accept.

I think the story needs to be told.

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How can it be a threat? It just means you cannot prove anything you say in the matter so give it up.