Is Love feeling ?

Tone · Dec 2, 2020

DiscipleHeLovesToo said:
in your opening post, you asked:

"How do you understand this ?"

i answered your question - it's up to you what you choose to believe my Friend

Well said.

If we ask for the perspective of others, we should be more open to what they are saying.

:oldthumbsup:

1213 · Dec 2, 2020

SANTOSO said:
...
How do you understand this ?

I don’t think love is a feeling in the Bible. It is more like caring without conditions, attitude to do good to others.

Bruce Leiter · Dec 2, 2020

SANTOSO said:
Are we not called to pursue love ?

This is what we have heard:
2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.
4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

How do you understand this ?

This is one of the seven letters of Jesus to the churches in Asia Minor in the Book of Revelation. The verse just in front of these says that it's written to the church at Ephesus. Of course, we must pursue love, but the Christians at Ephesus had lapsed into what appears to be a lukewarm love in general. Remember that these letters are addressed to the whole church and that there were individual exceptions.

Of course, we can always take instruction that applies to our lives from all seven of these letters, but the saying is right that says, "If the shoe fits, wear it."

friend of · Dec 2, 2020

I would argue Love is action

Blade · Dec 2, 2020

Are we not called to pursue love? Really means "Are we not called to pursue Christ?

Were born in fallen world and then to talk about what LOVE is? If we seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness all these things will be added unto us. I believe this love.. true love only comes from getting to know Him. I can not love someone I don't know. I didn't fall in love with Christ before I was saved nor after for I didn't know Him. You can know the bible inside and out and still not know Him.

Left your first love. I said sorry last night to Him. For me I can't play games. If I am not going to love my wife whom I can see feel hear. I am not going to say "oh I LOVE YOU SO MUCH JESUS!" I will not treat Him better. For me that is not how love works. Do we walk up asking what Hes thinking about . what He wants to do today? Is LOVE just obeying only? What Hes so real we just can't talk to Him or know for fact Hes in us and we in Him...

Hes with me 24/7. He gave me the sweet sweet Holy Spirit.. do we know Him? Do we know the Father? So to seek after love for me is to seek after Christ. What is love? Its Christ what is kind its Christ on and on. And being around someone long enough they rub off on you lol

SANTOSO · Dec 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
It's a book in the bible, if you need a definition for a word, use the context of the bible. It's the application that matters.

That is what I have been asking to share with me how you apply that first love !

SANTOSO · Dec 2, 2020

Tone said:
That's just it. He didn't commend their work. He said He knew it, but did He feel it? I think not, since He called for them to repent.

Yes, you've said it here. This is what I'm saying as well. Love is more than finding fault and putting away.

Sure they do.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Dear Tone,
It is true that the Lord ask the church in Ephesus to repent but He is not asking to repent the things that He commend them for. Otherwise, it would invalidate with what He approves.

The Lord ask them to repent because they put ministerial WORKS before the first love. The church in Ephesus TOIL in this ministerial work or service of faith before first love !
The Lord have known that they work with PATIENCE ENDURANCE in this ministry of the gospel but they lack that first love.

Remember what apostle Paul have said :

If I give away all I have,
and if I deliver up my body to be burned,
but have not love,
I gain nothing. -1 Corinthians 13:3

Indeed, the church in Ephesus — in their work, toil, and patience endurance — that the Lord commended —- looked like someone who give away all they have but have not love — as the Lord have said that they abandon the first love — what the Lord try to say, in order that, the church in Ephesus may gain everything with having that first love !

SANTOSO · Dec 2, 2020

DiscipleHeLovesToo said:
in your opening post, you asked:

"How do you understand this ?"

i answered your question - it's up to you what you choose to believe my Friend

It is true that I have said how do you understand this. But do you believe that you have understand correctly what the Lord have said about first love. I am not here to blame but we are admonished to understand this truth correctly; For you know the Lord is very concerned with this with strong warning.
He doesn’t only warn to the church in Ephesus; for this is what we have heard:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES. -Revelation 2:7

We are now in the age of the church of Laodicea but we have to hear what the Holy Spirit says to all the churches including what the Holy Spirit speaks to the church in Ephesus.

For those who endeavor to hear so that we turn to God and understand and our hearts be healed.

SANTOSO · Dec 2, 2020

friend of said:
I would argue Love is action

It is true, too. Could you share with the action of love that please the Lord that we may gain insight to the first love that the Lord is concerned about.

SANTOSO · Dec 3, 2020

Blade said:
Are we not called to pursue love? Really means "Are we not called to pursue Christ?

Were born in fallen world and then to talk about what LOVE is? If we seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness all these things will be added unto us. I believe this love.. true love only comes from getting to know Him. I can not love someone I don't know. I didn't fall in love with Christ before I was saved nor after for I didn't know Him. You can know the bible inside and out and still not know Him.

Left your first love. I said sorry last night to Him. For me I can't play games. If I am not going to love my wife whom I can see feel hear. I am not going to say "oh I LOVE YOU SO MUCH JESUS!" I will not treat Him better. For me that is not how love works. Do we walk up asking what Hes thinking about . what He wants to do today? Is LOVE just obeying only? What Hes so real we just can't talk to Him or know for fact Hes in us and we in Him...

Hes with me 24/7. He gave me the sweet sweet Holy Spirit.. do we know Him? Do we know the Father? So to seek after love for me is to seek after Christ. What is love? Its Christ what is kind its Christ on and on. And being around someone long enough they rub off on you lol

It is true that Christ is the One called Love Eternal. Yes, to pursue love is to pursue Christ.

I understand that you accept His words as love when He said about seeking His kingdom and righteousness. I agree with that, too.

I like that you don’t play games!
I like that you love your wife you see and in like manner you love Christ.

Christ have been telling us what He wants : about never leaving that first love, and do that work !

Your question about : Is LOVE just obeying only? What Hes so real we just can't talk to Him or know for fact Hes in us and we in Him...

Let me ask you: will you be concerned when Jesus have said this :

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. -John 15:10

I don’t understand why at the beginning you accept his words and at later end that it seems that you dismiss his words.

I am not sure that you are in that first love that Christ mentions in Revelation 2:4

Would not the Holy Spirit convicts us of this sin, too that we may repent ?
Would not the Heavenly Father told us to listen His Son ?

Let us not take lightly of Christ’s rebuke !

SANTOSO · Dec 3, 2020

1213 said:
I don’t think love is a feeling in the Bible. It is more like caring without conditions, attitude to do good to others.

Could you show us how you understand with actual experience and or that you understand what the Lord means in Revelation 2:4

SANTOSO · Dec 3, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
This is one of the seven letters of Jesus to the churches in Asia Minor in the Book of Revelation. The verse just in front of these says that it's written to the church at Ephesus. Of course, we must pursue love, but the Christians at Ephesus had lapsed into what appears to be a lukewarm love in general. Remember that these letters are addressed to the whole church and that there were individual exceptions.

Of course, we can always take instruction that applies to our lives from all seven of these letters, but the saying is right that says, "If the shoe fits, wear it."

Dear Bruce,
You can explain why you understand that Christians in Ephesus appears to be in lukewarm love ; are you not mistaking for Christians in the church of laodicea?

Can you explain why you are saying:
the saying is right that says, "If the shoe fits, wear it."
For one, I don’t understand in regards to that first love that the Lord mentions in Revelation 2:4

Gregory Thompson · Dec 3, 2020

SANTOSO said:
That is what I have been asking to share with me how you apply that first love !

Ephesus at the time of this letter was a church focused on telling people that they were wrong mostly - they had forgotten what faith was like in the beginning when it wasn't about that at all. A good starting point is to start with the first three gospels and apply that. Once the love of Jesus is in the core of your application: then apply the gospel of John. After you have the gospels, branch out into the letters.

But what matters as it was written to the Galatians is faith that expresses itself through love.

Tone · Dec 3, 2020

SANTOSO said:
The Lord ask them to repent because they put ministerial WORKS before the first love. The church in Ephesus TOIL in this ministerial work or service of faith before first love !

I believe that you may be focusing on a dichotomy that really isn't there. This is why I said He Is Shalom. He is Wholeness and this is what He looks for in us.

Our first love is not disconnected from ministerial works.

I wrote my initial post after thinking back to when I first really believed and accepted His grace upon me. And I thought about those works. They were works of forgiveness and a humility I never had before...a softness within, where only hardness was.

Yes, that congregation was good at using all the right metrics in order to place the subject into a profile. And this is necessary to protect the Body. But, then what, are they to burn them at the stake or banish them into unending exile?

Or should they rather seek to restore such a one?

Think back to when you first felt His inexhaustible grace. In that state (your first love), how would you treat those who you so correctly examined? Would you treat them with grace and mercy, knowing that whatever offense you found in them, is not the totality of who they are in Messiah, just as the offenses we may find in you, are not your shalom.

So, how will He commend their work, if it is incomplete?

--T1

Tone · Dec 3, 2020

Tone said:
I believe that you may be focusing on a dichotomy that really isn't there. This is why I said He Is Shalom. He is Wholeness and this is what He looks for in us.

Our first love is not disconnected from ministerial works.

I wrote my initial post after thinking back to when I first really believed and accepted His grace upon me. And I thought about those works. They were works of forgiveness and a humility I never had before...a softness within, where only hardness was.

Yes, that congregation was good at using all the right metrics in order to place the subject into a profile. And this is necessary to protect the Body. But, then what, are they to burn them at the stake or banish them into unending exile?

Or should they rather seek to restore such a one?

Think back to when you first felt His inexhaustible grace. In that state (your first love), how would you treat those who you so correctly examined? Would you treat them with grace and mercy, knowing that whatever offense you found in them, is not the totality of who they are in Messiah, just as the offenses we may find in you, are not your shalom.

So, how will He commend their work, if it is incomplete?

--T1

We must not confuse people who may have a virus, with the virus itself...

*Especially since we may not even understand the virus much anyways...

**Luke 7:47
"Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little."

DiscipleHeLovesToo · Dec 3, 2020

SANTOSO said:
It is true that I have said how do you understand this. But do you believe that you have understand correctly what the Lord have said about first love. I am not here to blame but we are admonished to understand this truth correctly; For you know the Lord is very concerned with this with strong warning.
He doesn’t only warn to the church in Ephesus; for this is what we have heard:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES. -Revelation 2:7

We are now in the age of the church of Laodicea but we have to hear what the Holy Spirit says to all the churches including what the Holy Spirit speaks to the church in Ephesus.

For those who endeavor to hear so that we turn to God and understand and our hearts be healed.

i appreciate your zeal, my Friend; we should all remember that none of us have perfect understanding of the things of God as long as we are in these flesh bodies - as we teach, we must all also remain teachable

aiki · Dec 3, 2020

SANTOSO said:
Are we not called to pursue love ?

This is what we have heard:
2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.
4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

How do you understand this ?

Love, at bottom, is desire, a strong yearning or longing for something, a passion for a thing strong enough to conform you in some way to it in your thinking and conduct. There is a human version of this love that is inward-focused, selfish, extended contingently to others and withdrawn easily. Godly love, agape love, in contrast, is a holy desire, a longing for what is perfect and divine that comes from God to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22). Agape love prompts us to seek after God even when it is very costly to do so; it moves us to forsake anything that would interfere with a pursuit of God; godly love moves us always into joyful fellowship with God.

Having abandoned one's "first love" for God means, I think, to have allowed one's love for God to cool, to be superseded by Self-love and all the things that Self-love leads one to desire and pursue. This manifests in spiritual complacency and eventual moral compromise, as well as the development of an external, hypocritical "righteousness" that is motivated by fear, duty, obligation, and/or religious piety and pride.

An intense, over-riding, life-shaping desire for God is what a believer's "first love" is, arising in response to a knowledge and belief in the awesome love God has for His children (1 John 4:16-19). It is what the Psalmist was writing of when he wrote of his soul panting after God as the hart panting after the waterbrook (Psalm 42:1).

DiscipleHeLovesToo · Dec 3, 2020

aiki said:
Love, at bottom, is desire, a strong yearning or longing for something, a passion for a thing strong enough to conform you in some way to it in your thinking and conduct. There is a human version of this love that is inward-focused, selfish, extended contingently to others and withdrawn easily. Godly love, agape love, in contrast, is a holy desire, a longing for what is perfect and divine that comes from God to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22). Agape love prompts us to seek after God even when it is very costly to do so; it moves us to forsake anything that would interfere with a pursuit of God; godly love moves us always into joyful fellowship with God.

Having abandoned one's "first love" for God means, I think, to have allowed one's love for God to cool, to be superseded by Self-love and all the things that Self-love leads one to desire and pursue. This manifests in spiritual complacency and eventual moral compromise, as well as the development of an external, hypocritical "righteousness" that is motivated by fear, duty, obligation, and/or religious piety and pride.

An intense, over-riding, life-shaping desire for God is what a believer's "first love" is, arising in response to a knowledge and belief in the awesome love God has for His children (1 John 4:16-19). It is what the Psalmist was writing of when he wrote of his soul panting after God as the hart panting after the waterbrook (Psalm 42:1).

Well Said brother!

one manifestation of poor focus on God's Agape love is fault-finding; two aspects of good focus on God's Agape love are faith and service (to others, as well as God)

Jaxxi · Dec 3, 2020

SANTOSO said:
Are we not called to pursue love ?

This is what we have heard:
2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary.
4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

How do you understand this ?

The love that you had for Jesus as a child, or when you first knew Him. Many people harden their hearts towards Jesus when they have loved ones die and they get angry with God. Or they see evil and suffering in the world and get angry with God for allowing it. Some people let the skepticism of the world plant doubt in their minds.

aiki · Dec 3, 2020

DiscipleHeLovesToo said:
one manifestation of poor focus on God's Agape love is fault-finding

Not sure what you mean about "fault finding." Do you mean like, say, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, 5, 6 and 11? Or maybe like when Jesus called the Pharisees "whitewashed tombs," or "brood of vipers," or "hypocrites," or "sons of hell"? Then, of course, there is also 2 Peter 2, or Paul's long corrective letter to the Galatians? I see the finding of fault in each of these instances...

Is Love feeling ?

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