If salvation was by deeds

So Paul was wrong in his teaching that we are saved apart from works?

No. This is merely a misunderstanding by many within the church on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6. In these portions of Scripture, we know from the whole of His Word that:

#1. Paul was referring to Initial Salvation or the Justification Process (Which is a process of salvation that does not include works) for one is first saved by God's grace and mercy and by His work of redemption through faith without works. For when a person seeks forgiveness with the Lord for the first time, they are not saved by anything they primarily did, but they are saved by Christ's mercy, and by believing in His finished work (i.e. His death, burial and resurrection). Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time act. Ephesians 2:8 refers to this kind of salvation as a gift. Gifts are received one time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:10 confirms that works will then follow one being saved. These are God directed works done through the believer (Philippians 2:13). Ephesians 2:9 refers to a completely different kind of work (i.e. Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism - because these are the kind of works a man would boast in himself in doing; Unlike the work in Ephesians 2:10 which are works we are created in Christ Jesus to do by the power and working of God).

#2. Paul was referring to "Law Alone Salvationism" (Which was in most cases in reference to trying to be saved by keeping the 613 Laws of Moses and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers). The Pharisees believed in a form of Law ALONE Salvationism that de-emphasized God's grace. We see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector by crying out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins.

Also, we know that there were a certain sect of Jews who wanted Christians to be saved by first being circumcised and or by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses.

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul spoke against Law and works in the way that he did in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. He was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
   

But make no mistake: Paul later spoke of the necessity of the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation in other verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by:


Paul says in Titus 1:16 that we can deny God by a lack of works.

Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, sober, and godly in this present world.

Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Paul says “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). This is supported by Paul saying in the same chapter: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). To "live after the flesh" is to live after sin. To "mortify the deeds of the body" is to put to death sin out of one's body via by the Spirit. Paul is referring to spiritual life vs. spiritual death because he says in Romans 8:1 about the same thing in relation to the "Condemnation" (Note: To learn more about the "Condemnation" see: John 3:19-21, and take note that everyone who does evil hates the light.).


In conclusion:

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6: Paul was referring to the Justification Process (Which is the 1st step in the salvation process that is without works). This process of salvation is how we are initially and ultimately saved. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to Jesus and they confess of their sins to be forgiven of that sin (See: 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer was not that we can do so and still be saved. His answer was: "God forbid" (See: Romans 6:1-2). His answer was: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). For Paul said that works of the flesh are these: Adultery, fornication, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc.; Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21). So Paul was defending the Justification Process of salvation (i.e. the 1st step in the salvation process), and James was defending the Sanctification Process in James 2:24 (i.e. the second step in the salvation process). For we are initially saved without works by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Justification) when we first come to the Lord, and we are then later justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone aftwards (James 2:24) (Sanctification). For James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But it is even more than just having works. One cannot justify sin. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Most churches today preach a greasy grace or easy believism. Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way. I will choose to follow Jesus and not the popular way promoted by most churches today.

Bible Highlighter said:

In conclusion:

In Ephesians 2:8-9

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FYI & input if interested. Top of page 22 begins process of trying to narrow down Eph2:5 & 8 translation and explanation as you're dealing with here:

Grace and Works broken down | Page 22 | Christian Forums

GDL said:

FYI & input if interested. Top of page 22 begins process of trying to narrow down Eph2:5 & 8 translation and explanation as you're dealing with here:

Grace and Works broken down | Page 22 | Christian Forums

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The link was not helpful for me. I seen a midpoint of a conversation going on but no point of reference of your actual position.
I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. So which is it? Do you believe works (Sanctification) plays a part in God’s plan of salvation after a person is saved by God’s grace?

5thKingdom said:

Of course those who say there is no God ARE THOSE
who are not regenerated.

Bottom line:
You need to understand the CONTEXT of a passage
(is it talking about regenerated or unregenerated)
BEFORE you can hope to understand the meaning.

Jim

Click to expand...

It is not uncommon for people to use Romans 3:10 to say that there is no one who is righteous, so I was simply making the point that Paul was not denying that there was anyone who is righteous because of the context of the Bible describing people who are righteous and the context of Romans 14:1-3 only speaking about those who say that there is no God. The bottom line is that I made the point because I took the time to understand the context.

Bible Highlighter said:

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).​

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).​

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).​

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).​

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).​

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

​

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).​

Click to expand...

I must say, I find it amazing to see that you would write
a small book to establish what Jesus taught [Mat 13] about
the church consisting of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and
unsaved "tares" sown by Satan... and we can tell the difference
"by their fruits" (which includes bad behavior AND false doctrines).

Good trees (people) produce good "fruit" (some thirty-fold, others
sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold) while bad trees (people)
produce bad "fruit", including heresies and false doctrines.
This is all basic elements of the Gospel (Theology 101)

Jim

Soyeong said:

It is not uncommon for people to use Romans 3:10 to say that there is no one who is righteous, so I was simply making the point that Paul was not denying that there was anyone who is righteous because of the context of the Bible describing people who are righteous and the context of Romans 14:1-3 only speaking about those who say that there is no God. The bottom line is that I made the point because I took the time to understand the context.

Click to expand...

As I already noted, Romans 3:10-12 (and related OT verses)
PROMISES that there are NONE (no, not even one) who will
ever "seek God"... as the CONTEXT is unregenerated people.

Of course regenerated people "seek God".
Again an example of how you must understand the CONTEXT
of a verse before you can pretend to understand the MEANING

Jim

To all:

Calvinists and or Eternal Security Proponents will sometimes say something along the lines (or they will imply) that born again believers are changed and will always bring forth the necessary fruit God is looking for and we cannot lose salvation. That God keeps a person to do His will and be saved. If this is the case, then the following verses should not exist in Scripture. For...

We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So things are not as they say. We have our part to do.

Bible Highlighter said:

The link was not helpful for me. I seen a midpoint of a conversation going on but no point of reference of your actual position.
I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. So which is it? Do you believe works (Sanctification) plays a part in God’s plan of salvation after a person is saved by God’s grace?

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Sorry. Thought your input would be interesting re: the translation of Eph2:5 & 8. Posts #421 then 426-430 are speaking to the issues.

You put forth a lot of content, so I'm glancing through. Without speaking to everything you're saying, my position is that Philippians 2:12 pretty much nails the issue of our work being commanded in Salvation and I don't think we need to change the word there to "sanctification" to make things clear - in fact I'd advise that having to clarify "salvation" by saying "sanctification" in Phil2:12 should not be done.

So: we don't work for our [initial] salvation and we do work with God to accomplish our salvation He's given us.

The key is being able to sort out what facet of the salvation process is being discussed in any specific Scripture: my salvation when I first become a believer; my ongoing salvation as a believer; my future salvation when God resurrects me. It's all called "salvation" in the Text. And justification & sanctification are not used exclusively to speak of initial salvation and the ongoing salvation process respectively.

As for the discussion re: Eph2:5 & 8, my position is that it's important to translate "saved" in those 2 verses as "have been saved" rather than "are saved" - I think this helps to isolate what facet(s) of salvation Paul is speaking about there.

Clear?

5thKingdom said:

As I already noted, Romans 3:10-12 (and related OT verses)
PROMISES that there are NONE (no, not even one) who will
ever "seek God"... as the CONTEXT is unregenerated people.

Of course regenerated people "seek God".
Again an example of how you must understand the CONTEXT
of a verse before you can pretend to understand the MEANING

Jim

Click to expand...

Again, pointing out that it is referring to unregretted people is just another way of making the same point I made based off of the context, not revealing a different meaning.

GDL said:

Sorry. Thought your input would be interesting re: the translation of Eph2:5 & 8. Posts #421 then 426-430 are speaking to the issues.

You put forth a lot of content, so I'm glancing through. Without speaking to everything you're saying, my position is that Philippians 2:12 pretty much nails the issue of our work being commanded in Salvation and I don't think we need to change the word there to "sanctification" to make things clear - in fact I'd advise that having to clarify "salvation" by saying "sanctification" in Phil2:12 should not be done.

So: we don't work for our [initial] salvation and we do work with God to accomplish our salvation He's given us.

The key is being able to sort out what facet of the salvation process is being discussed in any specific Scripture: my salvation when I first become a believer; my ongoing salvation as a believer; my future salvation when God resurrects me. It's all called "salvation" in the Text. And justification & sanctification are not used exclusively to speak of initial salvation and the ongoing salvation process respectively.

As for the discussion re: Eph2:5 & 8, my position is that it's important to translate "saved" in those 2 verses as "have been saved" rather than "are saved" - I think this helps to isolate what facet(s) of salvation Paul is speaking about there.

Clear?

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When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification)
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement

Bible Highlighter said:

Calvinists and or Eternal Security Proponents will sometimes say something along the lines (or they will imply) that born again believers are changed and will always bring forth the necessary fruit God is looking for....

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This is called a STRAWMAN argument since it is NOT (so called)
"Calvinists" saying believers are changed and bring forth fruit
(some thirty-fold, others sixty-fold, others one hundred-fold),
it is THE LORD JESUS CHRIST who said that.. some 1500 yrs
before Calvin was even born:


Mat 13:8-9
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit,
some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Who is the man that wants to argue those who are "born again",
those who are "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit are NOT CHANGED?
Or, that they do not "bring forth fruit" as the Words of Christ say?


Notice Matthew 13:9 says "Who hath ears to hear, let them hear".
Some people have "ears to hear"... others do not. It is not Calvin
that gives people "ears" to hear" (and submit to) the Words of Christ.
This issue is SOLVED as easily as that.


Jim


Mat 7:17-19
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit;
but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree
cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring
forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit
is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

.

Bible Highlighter said:

Conclusion: Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement

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Rom 8:28-32
And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them who are the called according to his
purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then
say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He
that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall
he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing
to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


.

Bible Highlighter said:

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

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Your #1 is part of what I refer to as the Salvation Plan & Work of God. So I agree with your at least 4 aspects.

Actually, when I was working on salvation, setting aside the generic uses of "save," I ended up with something like:

1. God's Salvation Plan (from eternity)
2. Salvation in the OT
3. Christ's Salvation Work
4. Our Initial Salvation
5. Our Growth in Salvation
6. Our Future Salvation

Also, I ended up subdividing your #3 into 2 parts: the growth from infancy (nepios) to maturity (telios 1) (Heb5-6) and from maturity (Phil3:15) to resurrection (telios 2 - Phil3:12) - so into your #4. Interestingly, Paul says those not on this course are enemies of the cross (Phil3).

The reason I don't like the Justification, Sanctification, Glorification construct is:

1. Didn't you point out the Justification in James is not your #2, but within #3?

2. Sanctification is not limited to your #3, but also applies to #2 (see what you think of 1Cor1:2 perfect tense & 6:11 aorist tense). Also sanctification is applied to Jesus (John10:36; 17:19). It may also apply to your #1 (Heb10:10). It also apples to food! (1Tim4:5). It is used in other ways as well (1Cor7:14).

Since salvation is a plan and a process, I've concluded to just use the word "salvation" as it is used in the Text. I find the JSG construct is used mostly to protect against works-salvation, but in doing so, salvation ends up being used only as a technical term for your #2 and verses like Phil2:12 throw people into confusion.

I've seen some speak (almost as just a side note/mention to the JSG construct) of salvation as being in 3-phases (as you note & as I have used), or as saved from the penalty of sin > being saved from the power of sin > will be saved from the presence of sin. Actually IMO these are better approaches than the JSG construct as they use the word "salvation" as it is used in the Text.

GDL said:

Your #1 is part of what I refer to as the Salvation Plan & Work of God. So I agree with your at least 4 aspects.

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I created the list because many confuse Provisional Atonement verses with Justification verses, and because many do not really see Sanctification as a part of God's plan of salvation.

You said:

Actually, when I was working on salvation, setting aside the generic uses of "save," I ended up with something like:

1. God's Salvation Plan (from eternity)
2. Salvation in the OT
3. Christ's Salvation Work
4. Our Initial Salvation
5. Our Growth in Salvation
6. Our Future Salvation

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Interesting list. I did not create a list for the OT because it was not relevant to our salvation. I also did not create it because I was not thinking about salvation in different time periods, but I was thinking about the process of salvation for all believers. If I were to create a list based on time, it would look like this:

1. God's Promises of Salvation & the Lamb's Book of Life.
2. Salvation in the Old Covenant between Adam and Moses.
3. Salvation in the Old Covenant involving the 613 laws of the Law of Moses.
4. Salvation in the Old Covenant involving the arrival of Jesus, and His NT teachings.
5. New Covenant Salvation involving the commands in the New Covenant Scriptures (Post Cross).

Oh, and thank you for the mention of God's salvation plan from eternity. I agree that should be included (even in the list of the mechanics of how salvation works for all men). So here is my updated list (not exclusively based on covenants or exclusive time periods of salvation for specific men only). I am focused more on core salvation here for all believers, and not just one individual group of believers alone.

1. Promises of the Messiah.
2. Provisional Atonement.
3. Justification.
4. Sanctification.
5. Glorification.

You said:

Also, I ended up subdividing your #3 into 2 parts: the growth from infancy (nepios) to maturity (telios 1) (Heb5-6) and from maturity (Phil3:15) to resurrection (telios 2 - Phil3:12) - so into your #4. Interestingly, Paul says those not on this course are enemies of the cross (Phil3).

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I see Sanctification working this way, but it still all one process (from my perspective). The Process of Sanctification is God working in the believer to make them to live a holy life. This process does not change from infancy to maturity. But I can understand why would want to make the distinction.

You said:

The reason I don't like the Justification, Sanctification, Glorification construct is:

1. Didn't you point out the Justification in James is not your #2, but within #3?

2. Sanctification is not limited to your #3, but also applies to #2 (see what you think of 1Cor1:2 perfect tense & 6:11 aorist tense). Also sanctification is applied to Jesus (John10:36; 17:19). It may also apply to your #1 (Heb10:10). It also apples to food! (1Tim4:5). It is used in other ways as well (1Cor7:14).

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Like the generic use of the word “saved,” words can have multiple meanings based on the context. Obviously the sanctification of food is not the same as the Sanctification of believers. For example: While James referred to how we are justified by faith and works in James 2:24, he was using the word “justified” not in reference to the Justification Process, but it was merely a similar word to declare how one is righteous or just before God in relation to both faith, and works.

For example: I can say that,

"The dog's bark could be heard all the way down the street, He scratched his paws against the bark of tree at the squirrel up in the tree (hoping to get the little guy)."

As you can see there are two words spelled as "bark" but yet they have two different meanings.

You said:

Since salvation is a plan and a process, I've concluded to just use the word "salvation" as it is used in the Text. I find the JSG construct is used mostly to protect against works-salvation, but in doing so, salvation ends up being used only as a technical term for your #2 and verses like Phil2:12 throw people into confusion.

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It's an interesting study. There are many Belief Alone Proponents or Eternal Security Folk who hold to the “Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification” model, but they will say that Sanctification is not a part of our salvation. Either that or their definition of Sanctification involves the believer living more progressively more holy, but they will always sin in this life or the believer will always be corrupted by sin. So there is never any real change. I am of the belief that Sanctification does involve our salvation (and it means we cannot justify sin and or think we will always must sin in this life); Otherwise the idea of living holy is just a sham.

You said:

I've seen some speak (almost as just a side note/mention to the JSG construct) of salvation as being in 3-phases (as you note & as I have used), or as saved from the penalty of sin > being saved from the power of sin > will be saved from the presence of sin. Actually IMO these are better approaches than the JSG construct as they use the word "salvation" as it is used in the Text.

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If one clarifies that the word “justified” or “sanctified”, and it's related wording can be found in Scripture for other things or uses, and there is a difference between this and the label of the actual salvation process itself (like: Justification, or Sanctification), then there is no issue. One can see that the model is describing a specific aspect of salvation with a particular label, and yet see that the word can appear in the Bible that is not describing that particular aspect of salvation.

As for the 3 phases model that says that “we are saved from the penalty of sin, > being saved from the power of sin, and > will be saved from the presence of sin,”: Well, I never liked this model because the first part that says “we are saved from the penalty of sin” can be misleading in turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For if we are saved from the penalty of sin, this suggests that we do not need to worry about future sin and we can think we are saved even if we sin and do not confess and forsake such sins. A person may think that they are slightly being saved from the power of sin, but they may think they can lie a little, or cheat a little, or look upon the opposite sex in lust a little and God's okay with that (because we are saved from the penalty of sin). But Paul warns that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. If we abide in unconfessed mortal sin, and we die, things will not go well for us. Proverbs 28:13 essentially says that he that confesses and forsakes sin, shall have mercy.

Bible Highlighter said:

As for the 3 phases model that says that “we are being saved from the penalty of sin, > being saved from the power of sin, and > will be saved from the presence of sin,”: Well, I never liked this model because the first part that says we are saved from the penalty of sin can be misleading in turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For if we are saved from the penalty of sin, this suggests that we do not need to worry about future sin and we can think we are saved even if we sin and do not confess and forsake such sins. A person may think that they are slightly being saved from the power of sin, but they may think they can lie a little, or cheat a little, or look upon the opposite sex in lust a little and God's okay with that. But Paul warns that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God

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I would offer. If not rightly divided a person could say that. But we know its all togethter one work of Christ who works in us to both will and empower us to do His good pleasure . .He as our confidence. He promises if he has begun the good works of salvation in us he will finish it to the last day, the day of the Lord. Philippians 1:6

We are saved from the wage of sin the "second death"the t death of the temporal spirit of mankind but that wage of suffering the pangs of hell as a living tribulation will continue until we take our last breath, the last day under the sun.

Because we are yoked with Christ who works in us the sufferings burden of sin is made lighter with a future hope as Sons of God not knowing what we will be when we receive the promise (Hebrews 11:39 ) which all die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible body that will never die or suffer under the letter of the law (You shall surely die) death .

garee said:

I would offer. If not rightly divided a person could say that. But we know its all togethter one work of Christ who works in us to both will and empower us to do His good pleasure . .He as our confidence. He promises if he has begun the good works of salvation in us he will finish it to the last day, the day of the Lord. Philippians 1:6

We are saved from the wage of sin the "second death"the t death of the temporal spirit of mankind but that wage of suffering the pangs of hell as a living tribulation will continue until we take our last breath, the last day under the sun.

Because we are yoked with Christ who works in us the sufferings burden of sin is made lighter with a future hope as Sons of God not knowing what we will be when we receive the promise (Hebrews 11:39 ) which all die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible body that will never die or suffer under the letter of the law (You shall surely die) death .

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First, the “letter of the Law” is a code for “the Law of Moses.” Paul also used this phrase when the New Testament Scriptures were still being formed. In short, his point was that the New Covenant was not given (or began) in the same way that the Law of Moses was given. The Law of Moses was given by tablets of stone, and the hand written Torah to the people of Israel. This is how the Law of Moses began. On the other hand, the New Covenant first started by the oral teachings of Jesus Christ, and then by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. These things were then later written down for our learning and application. By no means was Paul condemning the idea of obeying the commands of Jesus Christ and His followers under the New Covenant (or New Testament Scriptures that would come to be in their entirety for us today). 1 Timothy 6:3-4 basically says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud, and he knows nothing.

Second, Scripture says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). This means we literally have to confess sin every time we happen to stumble on rare occasion in this life in our walk with God. If not, we will not be forgiven. For 1 John 1:9 says if we confess, he is faithful and just to forgive. 1 John 1:9 does not say that you are already forgiven before you confess of your sins. That would be contradictory to what the verse says. Also, we have to forsake and put away sin as a part of salvation, as well. 1 John 1:7 hints at this. For 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 2:9-11 by the use of indirect wording is saying that “walking in the light” = “loving your brother.” So in addition to confessing sin so as to be forgiven (saved), we also have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin, too. For whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). For he that does not righteousness and or neither loves his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10). So no. The whole, “we are saved from the penalty of sin” is false. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Bible Highlighter said:

As for the 3 phases model

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I'm just using this part of your post to flag you.

A few responses:

1. Interesting thoughts on the OT. I too was working on current Salvation matters, so just left the entire OC in a single catch-all category.

2. Your updated list makes sense because I know your understandings. I'm still not in favor of the JSG listings. I like to present Salvation in all it's phases as Salvation and get right to how the Text speaks of believers having been saved apart from works, and working with God to accomplish salvation. I'd rather deal with the works issue earlier than later.

3. Understand the generic uses of these words and was going to hit it a bit more, but decided to shorten where I could. The sanctification issue is pretty much in accord with salvation: We have been saved/sanctified > we are being saved/sanctified. For me I'd rather deal with each of them on their own vs. intermixing them with the JSG construct. When I had been taught with JSG, I'd read the Text and find salvation & sanctification verses that didn't make sense, because Salvation was hardly or never used to speak of the being saved aspect. I decided to not pass on such confusion.

4. I agree with what I think I understand you saying about sanctification. It too is a process within God's Salvation Plan. The Belief/Faith Alone proponents and their view of Eternal Security is a problem. I actually was trained in that camp and came out of it through study and teaching. The sin issues it leaves open for way too many is tragic.

5. I agree with your view re: the 3-phases - not that the concept of phases is in itself unhelpful - but in the saved from sin statements as you're explaining. I don't use these either. Anything that leaves sin remotely misunderstood is leaving Salvation misunderstood IMO.

Bible Highlighter said:

The whole, “we are saved from the penalty of sin” is false. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

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If anything, some clarity could be added that we have been saved/delivered/freed from the imprisonment penalty of sin based upon Rom8:1 where katakrima is speaking of our being imprisoned under sin & death.

We were saved/freed from this imprisonment penalty. But, as you note, we now have to deal with the fact that sin still results in penalties.

GDL said:

1. Interesting thoughts on the OT. I too was working on current Salvation matters, so just left the entire OC in a single catch-all category.

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Thanks. All glory to the Lord for anything I know of course.
Before the cross: I discovered that Jesus gave a command that does not literally apply to us today.

“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” (Matthew 5:23-24).

Surely Jesus is not commanding us New Covenant believers today to offer animal sacrifices. So this only applied to those under the Old Covenant before the cross.

But Jesus primarily taught New Covenant and not Old Covenant, so many of the NT commands by our Lord are still very much still applicable to us today. Jesus gave us new commandments that are not found in the Old Testament.

“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” (John 13:34). So I see the time period of Jesus' ministry as a unique time of salvation (primarily for the Jews but with a few bread crumbs falling from the master's table).

You said:

2. Your updated list makes sense because I know your understandings. I'm still not in favor of the JSG listings. I like to present Salvation in all it's phases as Salvation and get right to how the Text speaks of believers having been saved apart from works, and working with God to accomplish salvation. I'd rather deal with the works issue earlier than later.

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I have no issue with the model, but I think of the different ways people can understand this model, it is important to stress the different meanings that people have of this model whenever I discuss it. In fact, the model may also lead a person to think you are on their side, and they may warm up to what you have to say with God's Word (Which will make them more open to think of how I believe the JSG model actually is in light of Scripture).

3. Understand the generic uses of these words and was going to hit it a bit more, but decided to shorten where I could. The sanctification issue is pretty much in accord with salvation: We have been saved/sanctified > we are being saved/sanctified. For me I'd rather deal with each of them on their own vs. intermixing them with the JSG construct.

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I understand, but many Christians are aware of the Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification model, so I talk from these theological constructs so as to better help them to see what the Scriptures are saying on the model they know. I believe each one paints a more clearer picture. When I think of Justification, I think of being declared righteous or just before a judge of my past sins when I sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and I believed that He died for my sins, and He was buried, and risen three days later on my behalf (Note: I believe Justification continues ongoingly in the life of the believer, as well). We have to continue to keep trusting in Jesus Christ and His redemptive work, and if we happen to sin on rare occasion, we have to go to Jesus and confess our sins to maintain our forgiveness or salvation. So this is why I prefer to use Justification. Saying I have been saved past tense, does not clarify the saving grace of God (Which is Justification). Sanctification is another aspect of salvation that works entirely different from Justification. So thus, it deserves it's own name. It is the process of GOD making a believer to live a holy life by His power working through the believer. This happens AFTER Justification and not before. But if I talked generically about just having been saved, it really does not clarify the issue. Sanctification is based on the word “cleansing” (like with water). God is cleansing us in this life to live holy (By putting away sin, and doing good works, etc.). This to me paints a very clear picture that we should know about.

When I had been taught with JSG, I'd read the Text and find salvation & sanctification verses that didn't make sense, because Salvation was hardly or never used to speak of the being saved aspect. I decided to not pass on such confusion.

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I think if people study, and they are aware that homonymns exist even in the Bible, it is not an issue. But each person must follow their own path of what they feel is right according to what His Word says (of course).

You said:

4. I agree with what I think I understand you saying about sanctification. It too is a process within God's Salvation Plan. The Belief/Faith Alone proponents and their view of Eternal Security is a problem. I actually was trained in that camp and came out of it through study and teaching. The sin issues it leaves open for way too many is tragic.

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Indeed. We should pray for them, brother. Only by God's power can they truly see the truth of the Scriptures on such a matter.

You said:

5. I agree with your view re: the 3-phases - not that the concept of phases is in itself unhelpful - but in the saved from sin statements as you're explaining. I don't use these either. Anything that leaves sin remotely misunderstood is leaving Salvation misunderstood IMO.

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I would be curious to see your list of salvation of the mechanics of salvation sometime (Whether by book, or on a website, or PM, video, or on the forums). May God bless you greatly today. It has been a real treat to talk with you, brother.

May God's good ways be upon you greatly today.

GDL said:

If anything, some clarity could be added that we have been saved/delivered/freed from the imprisonment penalty of sin based upon Rom8:1 where katakrima is speaking of our being imprisoned under sin & death.

We were saved/freed from this imprisonment penalty. But, as you note, we now have to deal with the fact that sin still results in penalties.

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I would prefer to simply not use the phrase because it is easily misunderstood. But I can understand if you used it for evangelistic purposes. I just don't like it because it reminds me of the phrases used in the Belief Alone camp of believers.