Your Core Belief(s)!

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
I didn't read in a context-less way an isolated verse without any sense of the overall meanings Jesus is teaching, but read any/all verses as part of the entire whole of all He says, together. Just as He would expect a follower to do. So, I'm able to notice all the wordings and broader meanings in their intended senses. Is there one in particular you'd like to hear about? (don't bother to try to give me a too-much kind of list of 4 or 8 things at once though; I won't play along with that kind of tactic (if this isn't clear, reverse positions and consider if I asked you 10 involved questions all in one post))

Your responses looks to be quite transparent. If you had answers, you would answer them. But since you likely feel you got your hand caught in the cookie jar, you would rather avoid or redirect.

I'll make this simple for you...

You do not follow all of Jesus's teachings. Just the ones you like. And the ones you do not like, you 'spin' as not being 'within context' or some other ploy of shenanigans.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

ChetSinger said:
You asked a question and I gave you my answer. If you want to converse, I'm fine, but if you want to argue, I'm not interested.

If by argument, you mean you are getting 'heated', then maybe you should not engage. I'm simply asking you questions. If these questions make you angry, then maybe this is because such question(s) are striking a nerve?

I stand by post #13, as not being an 'argument' --- to simply promote anger. I'm genuinely interested in what compels your belief, and if it appears sound?

If you care not to engage, then maybe you can later self-reflect, by asking yourself... "why do these questions make me so angry?"

Halbhh · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
Your responses looks to be quite transparent. If you had answers, you would answer them. But since you likely feel you got your hand caught in the cookie jar, you would rather avoid or redirect.

I'll make this simple for you...

You do not follow all of Jesus's teachings. Just the ones you like. And the ones you do not like, you 'spin' as not being 'within context' or some other ploy of shenanigans.

Again (sorry, this is repeating what I already answered above to you), I've done every instruction I can find. I'm not aware of one I haven't tried. There might be one, but I've tried them all I could see (and read carefully, and repeatedly).

Did you miss that, above, in my previous post on that to you?

How about you -- have you tried many?

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Again (sorry, this is repeating what I already answered above to you), I've done every instruction I can find. I'm not aware of one I haven't tried. There might be one, but I've tried them all I could see (and read carefully, and repeatedly).

Did you miss that, above, in my previous post on that to you?

You again prove to avoid everything I have stated. (i.e.)

- You still have many possessions, and do not instead give most/all to the poor.
- You do not happily offer the opposite cheek, if/when someone were to strike you.
- When someone tries to take from you, you do not ask them what else they would like to take from you.

And neither do I

Hence, like I stated prior, you do NOT adhere to all of Jesus's teachings. Just the ones you like.

Thus, your 'assertion' is false.

Halbhh said:
How about you -- have you tried many?

Sure. Thus far, none seem to lead to a god, any more or less than the next.

Halbhh · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
Have you given away all your possessions, or as much as humanly possible? If so, how were you able to respond to this thread?

Even though I already answered "every" one I could find -- I wonder if this one in particular is the one you are most concerned about?

As I was just saying above, full total context. (That's the way His Words work: as full complete teachings, for those willing to listen and hear.)

Let's look:
--------------
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."
Matthew 19 NIV

[underlining added]
------------------

It can be a full meal already just to listen to something Jesus says, but if you wish to hear my understanding also, here it is (or you could come back later to see it) --

The rich young man faced, with a choice of his wealth and following Christ (literally here, since Christ is literally in front of him), chose to remain/dwell/stay with his wealth, instead of following Christ and thus leaving his wealth behind.

Illustration from another moment on the very same question --

19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”

20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
Matthew 8 NIV

See what following him literally meant there: traveling from place to place, without a home, wealth, luxuries...literally sleeping on the ground out in the open often enough.

Which is more important to us? -- our preoccupations/luxuries/hobbies/interests/pursuits/clubs/politics/etc. ... or... following Jesus, by listening to Him and hearing Him and then doing as He says? Which is the priority and first choice, for a person?

What comes first in your life? Unless the Lord is first, then whatever you put first is your true 'god'/'idol'. Here's that same lesson again --

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
Matthew 6 NIV

He says, and I hear Him, that I cannot put money first and still follow Him. He has to be first (and money only a mere tool and not first.)

Now as we can see above, the rich young man truly treasured his luxuries/wealth. They were first, for him. Even above the chance to follow Christ in person.

Have I literally done at some times the equivalent of giving my key tool, or coat, or all currently available cash or some similar such instance? Giving my coat and going cold. Yes, but also most all of us have done that at times.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Tone said:
I doubt many would say that they came to God through felt contact, though, in my case, it may have confirmed contact.

As to the list, I've experienced all except #4.

Are you familiar with external world skepticism? If so, how were you able to discredit the infinite number of plausible/alternative conclusions, verses your claims to 'confirmed contact'?

ChetSinger · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
If by argument, you mean you are getting 'heated', then maybe you should not engage. I'm simply asking you questions. If these questions make you angry, then maybe this is because such question(s) are striking a nerve?

I stand by post #13, as not being an 'argument' --- to simply promote anger. I'm genuinely interested in what compels your belief, and if it appears sound?

If you care not to engage, then maybe you can later self-reflect, by asking yourself... "why do these questions make me so angry?"

Good grief. I'm not heated. But I come here to converse, not debate.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Even though I already answered "every" one I could find -- I wonder if this one in particular is the one you are most concerned about?

As I was just saying above, full total context. (That's the way His Words work: as full complete teachings, for those willing to listen and hear.)

Let's look:
--------------
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."
Matthew 19 NIV

[underlining added]
------------------

It can be a full meal already just to listen to something Jesus says, but if you wish to hear my understanding also, here it is (or you could come back later to see it) --

The rich young man faced, with a choice of his wealth and following Christ (literally here, since Christ is literally in front of him), chose to remain/dwell/stay with his wealth, instead of following Christ and thus leaving his wealth behind.

Illustration from another moment on the very same question --

19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”

20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
Matthew 8 NIV

See what following him literally meant there: traveling from place to place, without a home, wealth, luxuries...literally sleeping on the ground out in the open often enough.

Which is more important to us? -- our preoccupations/luxuries/hobbies/interests/pursuits/clubs/politics/etc. ... or... following Jesus, by listening to Him and hearing Him and then doing as He says? Which is the priority and first choice, for a person?

What comes first in your life? Unless the Lord is first, then whatever you put first is your true 'god'/'idol'. Here's that same lesson again --

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
Matthew 6 NIV

He says, and I hear Him, that I cannot put money first and still follow Him. He has to be first (and money only a mere tool and not first.)

Now as we can see above, the rich young man truly treasured his luxuries/wealth. They were first, for him. Even above the chance to follow Christ in person.

Sure, and when reading such passages, it looks as though NO ONE can earn their way to heaven. Whether it be by the 'golden rule', giving to the poor, or other.... All that really matters is belief, repent, worship. Hence, your claims about the 'golden rule' actually become null and void - or unnecessary. Jesus tells all that no works matter, as all will fall short.

BUT...

Then you get to Matthew 25:31-46. In this passage, He tells followers what it takes to get to heaven, which seems to suggest works. "Works' of which I doubt you or I do. Focus on the red. Are you a "sheep" or a "goat"?

Have you given enough of yourself away to demonstrate to your believed God that you are worthy of His Kingdom? Or, do you instead rationalize your actions?

The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

ChetSinger said:
Good grief. I'm not heated. But I come here to converse, not debate.

If you are not angry or heated, then you will have no problem either answering the questions in post #13, or telling me why the Q's appear absurd

Halbhh · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
Sure, and when reading such passages, it looks as though NO ONE can earn their way to heaven. Whether it be by the 'golden rule', giving to the poor, or other.... All that really matters is belief, repent, worship. Hence, your claims about the 'golden rule' actually become null and void - or unnecessary. Jesus tells all that no works matter, as all will fall short.

BUT...

Then you get to Matthew 25:31-46. In this passage, He tells followers what it takes to get to heaven, which seems to suggest works. "Works' of which I doubt you or I do. Focus on the red. Are you a "sheep" or a "goat"?

Have you given enough of yourself away to demonstrate to your believed God that you are worthy of His Kingdom? Or, do you instead rationalize your actions?

The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Amen!

We have to put God first, and if we really do, then we will love our brothers and sisters and care about them.

We aren't saved because we do good works. But if we are saved and continue to follow Him, we begin more and more to do good works.

Here is better wording than mine --

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2 NIV

NBB · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'm sorry you feel this way. This is a debate forum. I'm here to question or challenge your assertions. I suspect post #1, for you, then looks to be right on point:

"whenever the topic heads towards the core reason(s) for their belief that Christianity is true, I often times sense push-back, or even retreat from the interlocutor prior to getting to the 'heart' of the matter? It seems as though many do not want their true and core belief thoroughly challenged.?.?.?"

Your are not challenging belief it seems you are just throwing garbage over them, and probably not listening at all what people says.

Why someone would think that finding God was about...: finding God himself..., and there is plenty of reasons to believe too.

You see christians through your atheist lenses that says people experiencing something from God is not possible.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Amen!

We have to put God first, and if we really do, then we will love our brothers and sisters and care about them.

We aren't saved because we do good works. But if we are saved and continue to follow Him, we begin more and more to do good works.

Here is better wording than mine --

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2 NIV

You agree, but then do not address the actual heart of the presented matter.

It goes directly back to what I stated prior. (i.e.)

When you walk by the homeless, do you always invite them in to your home for food and shelter, and/or give all the homeless you come across as much of your money as humanly possible? I doubt it. And neither do I.

Hence, I again restate what I stated before. Does your believed upon God deem you a 'sheep' or a 'goat'?

According to Matthew 25:31-46, it's as if every opportunity passed, for which you do not perform the above tasks, is like a slap in the face to Jesus.

Therefore, I again conclude you are in direct contradiction to your own assertion.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

NBB said:
Your are not challenging belief it seems you are just throwing garbage over them, and probably not listening at all what people says.

Why someone would think that finding God was about...: finding God himself..., and there is plenty of reasons to believe too.

You see christians through your atheist lenses that says people experiencing something from God is not possible.

It seems as though you did not actually read the OP in it's entirety? I stated, from the jump, that this is my experience, in the passed 3 years of being here in the apologetics forum arena. If your way to Christ is by revelation, then please, by all means, please note which of the (6) ways you discerned as such. If it is by revelation, but you have a unique way, please, by all means, please also note your methodology.

If you came to Christ by some other way, I would not be opposed to hearing your reason(s) either.

Thanks

Halbhh · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
You agree, but then do not address the actual heart of the presented matter.

It goes directly back to what I stated prior. (i.e.)

When you walk by the homeless, do you always invite them in to your home for food and shelter, and/or give all the homeless you come across as much of your money as humanly possible? I doubt it. And neither do I.

Hence, I again restate what I stated before. Does your believed upon God deem you a 'sheep' or a 'goat'?

According to Matthew 25:31-46, it's as if every opportunity passed, for which you do not perform the above tasks, is like a slap in the face to Jesus.

Therefore, I again conclude you are in direct contradiction to your own assertion.

Plenty of us have done good Samaritan actions when we encounter someone in need. It's common. But we don't brag about it, ideally. In fact, we are specifically instructed not to trumpet our good works(!). It's an actual commandment to us.

Can you see how you made an effort to find something unlikely in your wording? You even attempted to make an artificial thing you'd expect no one has done. But though some have done just that kind of thing, as led to do possibly, it's not precisely what is meant in the text. Consider your own wording, where you added extra conditions/burdens, such as: "as much of your money as humanly possible?"

But that isn't what the Good Samaritan did, precisely. And what he did do makes perfect sense: he did what was needed.

The realistic/actual situations that happen is when the Good Samaritan finds someone in need they do what that person needs, not extra other things unconnected to their real need.

While on this broad topic, are you thinking if a person for instance generally things Christ says, keeping His words generally, but has a flaw or failure, that means they are refusing to follow Christ? No. It means they are at times needing to confess, and be restored again, just as said in 1rst John chapter 1 and elsewhere. It's a walk, because we haven't yet arrived. (this isn't just a hypothesis, but rather is directly from scripture; ask if you need the reference).

So, if you really want to, you could try to read more fully and really listening, and better get the intended full meanings. Don't you yourself have concern you might not understand it all perfectly? You should. You could learn more, but you'd have to be humble ultimately. It's like it is locked against those that are not humble, it seems. You have to admit you are a sinner in need of Christ to really hear the messages more fully.

NBB · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
It seems as though you did not actually read the OP in it's entirety? I stated, from the jump, that this is my experience, in the passed 3 years of being here in the apologetics forum arena. If your way to Christ is by revelation, then please, by all means, please note which of the (6) ways you discerned as such. If it is by revelation, but you have a unique way, please, by all means, please also note your methodology.

If you came to Christ by some other way, I would not be opposed to hearing your reason(s) either.

Thanks

But have you made your mind that this is not possible though? i mean having a revelation or an experience with God.

Because if finding God through faith is actually you know finding God somehow, then why you criticize that chritians don't believe because apologetics, experiencing God is better than apologetics.

The bible talks about 'inward witnessing that we are child of God'.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Halbhh said:
Plenty of us have done good Samaritan actions when we encounter someone in need. It's common. But we don't brag about it, ideally. In fact, we are specifically instructed not to trumpet our good works(!). It's an actual commandment to us.

I'm not asking you to brag. I asked a question. How often do you invite the homeless into your home for food and shelter? I would hasten to state, virtually never. This looks to be in conflict with Bible Verse. You look to be trying to 'square' these Verses, by way of cognitive dissonance.

Halbhh said:
Can you see how you made an effort to find something unlikely in your wording? You even attempted to make an artificial thing you'd expect no one has done. But though some have done just that kind of thing, as led to do possibly, it's not precisely what is meant in the text. Consider your own wording, where you added extra conditions/burdens, such as: "as much of your money as humanly possible?"

My effort in 'wording', within that response, was merely intended to grant (you) as much leniency for your side as possible

Hence, the reason I did not adhere to words like 'absolutely every time', or 'all'.

Halbhh said:
But that isn't what the Good Samaritan did, precisely. And what he did do makes perfect sense: he did what was needed.

Do you do what is 'needed'? Again, if this God exists, and Matthew 25:31-46 is actually relevant. Does the Lord deem you a sheep or a goat? Please explain your answer?

I would say we are both 'goats', unless you do somehow invite the homeless into your house, as you pass by them, of course where it is deemed 'needed.'

Halbhh said:
While on this broad topic, are you thinking if a person for instance generally things Christ says, keeping His words generally, but has a flaw or failure, that means they are refusing to follow Christ? No. It means they are at times needing to confess, and be restored again, just as said in 1rst John chapter 1 and elsewhere. It's a walk, because we haven't yet arrived. (this isn't just a hypothesis, but rather is directly from scripture; ask if you need the reference).

If you have 'arrived', this would mean you would invite the homeless into your house, as needed. But I bet you don't. You are in direct conflict with yourself, it seems.

Halbhh said:
So, if you really want to, you could try to read more fully and really listening, and better get the intended full meanings. Don't you yourself have concern you might not understand it all perfectly? You should. You could learn more, but you'd have to be humble ultimately. It's like it is locked against those that are not humble, it seems. You have to admit you are a sinner in need of Christ to really hear the messages more fully.

I'm the first to admit I do not have the entire Bible memorized. But do I need to keep reading the same parts, over and over again, to try and rationalize away the contradiction?

In this case, the contradiction you agreed with, but have yet to actually acknowledge? (i.e.) -- Are you a sheep or a goat?

Tone · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
Are you familiar with external world skepticism? If so, how were you able to discredit the infinite number of plausible/alternative conclusions, verses your claims to 'confirmed contact'?

Well, I suppose I could Google it, but why don't you give me your understanding of it!

As far as discrediting an infinite number of... anything...I haven't. I've only been around for 41 years or so.

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

NBB said:
But have you made your mind that this is not possible though? i mean having a revelation or an experience with God.

Because if finding God through faith is actually you know finding God somehow, then why you criticize that chritians don't believe because apologetics, experiencing God is better than apologetics.

The bible talks about 'inward witnessing that we are child of God'.

This topic is to challenge the ones whom claim they've received revelation. And furthermore, have somehow also ruled out ALL other plausible actual conclusions. -- For which there may be an infinite number...?

Care to engage? If so, please proceed

cvanwey · Dec 3, 2020

Tone said:
Well, I suppose I could Google it, but why don't you give me your understanding of it!

As far as discrediting an infinite number of... anything...I haven't. I've only been around for 41 years or so.

Then how are you so sure your 'direct contact' was from YHWH, verses a plethora of other plausible 'causes'?

Halbhh · Dec 3, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'm not asking you to brag. I asked a question. How often do you invite the homeless into your home for food and shelter? I would hasten to state, virtually never. This looks to be in conflict with Bible Verse. You look to be trying to 'square' these Verses, by way of cognitive dissonance.

My effort in 'wording' was merely intended to grant (you) as much leniency for your side as possible Hence, the reason I did not adhere to words like 'absolutely every time', or 'all'.

Do you do what is 'needed'? Again, if this God exists, and Matthew 25:31-46 is actually relevant. Does the Lord deem you a sheep or a goat? Please explain your answer?

I would say we are both 'goats', unless you do somehow invite the homeless into your house, as you pass by them, of course where it is deemed 'needed.'

If you have 'arrived', this would mean you would invite the homeless into your house, as needed. But I bet you don't. You are in direct conflict with yourself, it seems.

I'm the first to admit I do not have the entire Bible memorized. But do I need to keep reading the same parts, over and over again, to try and rationalize away the contradiction?

In this case, the contradiction you agreed with, but have yet to actually acknowledge? (i.e.) -- Are you a sheep or a goat?

You're there one here at the moment who seems to be working hard to maintain a claim that the passages don't all fit or all apply (but instead then must contradict), and to assert I'm rationalizing (your word). But actually I'm reading fully....

Who's the one rationalizing?

Your Core Belief(s)!

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Everything You say is Life to me

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Everything You say is Life to me

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Everything You say is Life to me

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Everything You say is Life to me

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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Everything You say is Life to me

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