Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

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Show us here one passage in the sacred text that teaches your theory. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove."

Scripture shows that there is one future coming of Christ. The problem with Pretribbers is they list a pile of Scripture and fail to take them one at a time and let them speak for themselves. You quickly see they have zero corroboration in God's Book.

Let us start with 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9!

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Pretrib

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Posttrib
  • This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
  • It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
  • This is the end!
The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful and thorough that none escape. This is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib packed with unsaved people.

The opposite to “wrath” here is shown to be “salvation.” Salvation involves a person taking a hold of eternal life. The antithesis is therefore a person experiencing eternal torment. The wrath of God will be poured out on the wicked at the end. They will then experience the second death.

To get around the climactic detail of this passage Pretribs try to separate the day of the Lord from the second coming of Christ. This totally distorts the wording, the harmony and the thrust of this passage and its detailed description of the fate of the saved and the lost. The day of the Lord is pushed 7 years ahead of the coming of Christ even though there is no mention of such in this text. Pretrib is therefore exposed by this text.

The writer actually warns the believer in the light of the awful unexpected destruction that overcomes the wicked at the coming of Christ for the believer to be watchful of that day so “that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We are told to “watch and be sober” of that day.

Let us try and sum up what this much-debated passage is telling us about Christ’s coming.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

Compare the signs in Joel 2:31 and Revelation 6:12-13. Both signs are black skies and a blood moon. Joel 2:31 makes it clear that these signs happen right before the Day of the LORD. So this marks the timing of the Day of the LORD at the 6th seal. There are several trumpet and bowl judgments that must happen before our Lord can return. So 1 Thessalonians 5 is not teaching Post Trib.
 
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sovereigngrace

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However, Satan is bound for the millennial age and not able to tempt anyone... I full well believe that he is out there tempting.. not bound and still walking to and fro like a lion looking to devour.
  • Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
  • Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
  • Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.
The binding of Satan simply describes the legal restraints placed upon him after the cross that limits his capacity to do whatever he wants to do and go wherever he wants to go. Satan cannot stop the enlightenment of the Gentiles as before. He is a defeated foe through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The restraint spoken about in Revelation 20 simply relates to the Gospel advance to the Gentiles. The heathen were once enveloped in darkness before the first resurrection; but now, a bright light has been shining for 2000 years saving countless millions throughout the nations. And there is absolutely nothing Satan can do prevent the invasion of his territory. He cannot deceive "the nations" (Gentiles) as he once did because we now have the truth as a result of the Church’s expansion into the nations.
The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

Do you cause Satan sleepless nights or does he cause you sleepless nights?

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.
 
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BABerean2

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After the 6th seal, a lot of judgments still need to happen (like the trumpet and bowl judgments) before Christ can come back at the 2nd coming.


Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.
 
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Clare73

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The words I bolded in red show otherwise.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.”


You might want to review it again.
The Sadducees came to Jesus with a trick question (vv.24-28) regarding the resurrection, which they did not believe in (v. 23).

Jesus' first point answers that question by revealing there will be no marriage after the resurrection.

Jesus' second point, the
words bolded in red, addresses the belief of the Sadducees
on which the trick question was based; i.e.,

the dead do not rise because they are annihilated, they do not exist.
Jesus replied that they were "in error because they did not know the Scriptures" (v.29), wherein
God shows in Ex 3:6 that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are presently living, they are not annihilated.

Jesus is talking neither about the rapture nor two resurrections in Mt 22:23-32.
He is making two points about the resurrection in which the Sadducees did not believe.

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Compare the signs in Joel 2:31 and Revelation 6:12-13. Both signs are black skies and a blood moon. Joel 2:31 makes it clear that these signs happen right before the Day of the LORD. So this marks the timing of the Day of the LORD at the 6th seal. There are several trumpet and bowl judgments that must happen before our Lord can return. So 1 Thessalonians 5 is not teaching Post Trib.

You are ducking around this basic request. Pretribbers have to do this because they have nothing to support their man-made doctrine - nothing. You totally avoided the main Scripture you started with because it exposes Pretrib. You avoided my questions - you have to. This is Pretrib.

Where does Joel 2:31 and Revelation 6:12-13 teach a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming? Nowhere.

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

This fiery day of complete destruction is an impending day (“it is nigh at hand”) that will evidently destroy this planet. The appearance of Christ will leaven nothing of corruption standing. Joel 2:4-5 continues, “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

His face manifests the shikinah of God. Whilst the Premillennialist accepts that the earth flees from His glory at the end of Satan’s little season it negates that reality at His second coming. Is His glory any different? Why didn't the heavens and the earth flee from His face then? After all, the brightness of His coming should hardly be diminished at any time. Scripture would see to locate the fulfilment of Revelation 20:11 at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

The 6th seal is climactic. You have to ignore the detail described in order to force your meaning. This is the end. This correlates with multiple Scriptures that show a climactic return of Christ. This also demolishes the chronological approach and with it Premil. The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position.

The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

Creation

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed.
It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).
 
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Clare73

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We interpret direct from the Greek. We do not need to interpret the from Greek into Latin and then into English to understand truth, as Pretribbers do to support their error. We interpret direct from the original language.
The Latin Vulgate was the first translation of the Greek NT, and the translation used for the first English translation.
 
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pshun2404

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

I definitely believe it and this happens at the same time that "the dead in Christ" shall rise which occurs at His second coming (at the same time the Anti-Christ is consumed by the brightness of His coming)
 
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sovereigngrace

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Again, the beginning of 1 Thessalonians 5 refers to the Day of the Lord (Which clearly begins with the breaking of the 6th seal). There are several trumpet and bowl judgments that happen between the 6th seal and the coming of Christ. Again, the signs of a black sky and a blood moon appear for BOTH the 6th seal AND before the Day of the LORD in Scripture! This rules out any Post Trib view. Only a Pre-Trib or Mid Trib view will work here.

Signs Before the Period of Time Known As the
"Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Wrath"
:


The Sixth Seal: (Part 1):
(When These Signs First Appear, The Days of Vengeance Ends):

Sixth Seal Opened:

A Great Earthquake Happens, the Sun Goes Black, the Moon Turns Blood Red, Stars Fall From the Sky, the Heavens Shall Shake, the Waves of the Seas will Roar:

Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.​

Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken​

Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.​

Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.​

Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:​

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

Admonishments on the Coming "Day of the Lord":

(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT

Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.​

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,​

Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

It is hard to engage with you because you do not have a proof text. When pinned down you just list a bunch of Scripture that makes no reference to what you are trying to teach. That is because your theology is extra-biblical. Your teachers have misled you. You are now left standing holding the baby. You will never find biblical support for it because it does not exist. Your avoidance is a testimony to that fact.

Now, will you address my previous arguments?
 
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JacksBratt

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  • Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints.
I will stop you right there. I totally disagree. God can bind any being.

Jude 6


New International Version



6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.



Satan is an angelic being. Created and easily restrained by God.
 
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It is hard to engage with you because you do not have a proof text. When pinned down you just list a bunch of Scripture that makes no reference to what you are trying to teach. That is because your theology is extra-biblical. Your teachers have misled you. You are now left standing holding the baby. You will never find biblical support for it because it does not exist. Your avoidance is a testimony to that fact.

Now, will you address my previous arguments?

I studied the End Times based on looking at all the three major positions. I think those who hold to Post Trib view feel like they need to pay the price for something. Again, you fail to look at the signs connected to the sixth seal and Day of the Lord. This signs prove that the Day the Lord is not exclusively the return of Christ alone (although it does include it). The Day of the Lord is a period of time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I will stop you right there. I totally disagree. God can bind any being.

Jude 6


New International Version



6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.



Satan is an angelic being. Created and easily restrained by God.

And what is your point? Obviously you cannot even get past this first simple truth. Please address the Scriptures that forbid your teaching and stop avoiding.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I studied the End Times based on looking at all the three major positions. I think those who hold to Post Trib view feel like they need to pay the price for something. Again, you fail to look at the signs connected to the sixth seal and Day of the Lord. This signs prove that the Day the Lord is not exclusively the return of Christ alone (although it does include it). The Day of the Lord is a period of time.

Again, more avoidance, more opinions and zero evidence. This is Pretrib. Where is your biblical evidence?

You have avoided a bucket load of evidence above. You have to. It exposes Pretrib! The Scriptures presented show that there is one final future climactic return of Christ that ushers in the end of time.
 
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Again, more avoidance, more opinions and zero evidence. This is Pretrib. Where is your biblical evidence?

You have avoided a bucket load of evidence above. You have to. It exposes Pretrib!

And your avoiding the verses I posted initially to you before you posted your verses.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Again, more avoidance, more opinions and zero evidence. This is Pretrib. Where is your biblical evidence?

You have avoided a bucket load of evidence above. You have to. It exposes Pretrib!

In other words, until you understand the timing of the beginning of the Day of the Lord with Scripture, you are coming to a wrong conclusion.
 
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sovereigngrace

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In other words, until you understand the timing of the beginning of the Day of the Lord with Scripture, you are coming to a wrong conclusion.

Pretrib does not have one single proof-text anywhere that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming. You know that. It is man made. It is extra-biblical. There is a reason why the enlightened are abandoning that doctrine throughout the world.

The Scriptures show that there is one final future climactic return of Christ that ushers in the end of time.

Present some hard biblical evidence instead of always voicing what you have been wrongly taught.
 
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sovereigngrace

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And your avoiding the verses I posted initially to you before you posted your verses.

Where is your biblical evidence that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming? I have seen nothing yet, and you know it!
 
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grafted branch

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How is Christ reigning with those saints who are beheaded again? It just doesn't seem plausible in a normal reading of Revelation 20:4.

The saints that are beheaded are the ones that literally rose from the graves in Matthew 27:52-53. They are considered beheaded because Messiah was cut off. In order to have a future millennium you not only have the problem of Christ’s reign which I pointed out in my previous post, but now you also have the problem that a first physical, literal resurrection of saints has already occurred.
 
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grafted branch

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Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. However, He has the ability to get up and go somewhere. He isn't handcuffed to a throne. It's a figure of speech. That is His place of power.


I have a footstool... Even I don't have my feet on it all the time. Again, a figure of speech.

Christ will certainly not be deterred from meeting us in the air...for any reason. This is certainly not a concept that would negate the "catching up" or Rapture of the church.

Do you have any scripture to support that idea? From Hebrews 10:12-13 it says He remains seated.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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But they say there is no rapture, and yet 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes a rapture like event. Therein lies the problem.
However, the word rapture tends to cause division and confusion - thus God did not author the theologies.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Where does Scripture say that this event happens at the Second Coming of Christ?
Right in the same passage that you're talking about.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He's not going to descend from heaven more than once. Scripture never teaches that.
 
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