Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

PaulCyp1 said:
Infections by microorganisms are fully explained by science, and have no supernatural significance. People of Old Testament times thought that epidemics were caused by the wrath of God. Today we know better.

Everything in life happens for a reason. Also, God created micro-organisms. God did send plagues and famines upon others.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

grafted branch said:
I didn’t write the scriptures I just quoted them.

1. Christ is currently sitting at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).

2. Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool (Hebrews 10:13).

3. Christ reigns until his enemies are put under his feet (1 Corinthians 15:25).

4. Since Christ must both be seated and reign until the same condition of his enemies being put under his feet; he is in the seated/reigning position until this condition is met.

5. Christ will return at some point in the future, he will no longer be in the seated/reigning position, and his enemies will have been put under his feet at the time.

6. Christ will reign in the millennium (Revelation 20:6).

Conclusion: if the millennium is future to Christ’s second coming then he reigns, stops reigning, and reigns again; or ?

Can you tell me specifically at what point you disagree?

I already refuted you unless you reject the battle at the end of Millennium and you reject the second death in Scripture that takes place at the final Judgment. Only then will the last enemy be destroyed, and not before the Millennium, and not before the final Judgment.

sovereigngrace · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
My full chronology of the End Times can be found in this thread here:

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

Show us here one passage in the sacred text that teaches your theory. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove."

Scripture shows that there is one future coming of Christ. The problem with Pretribbers is they list a pile of Scripture and fail to take them one at a time and let them speak for themselves. You quickly see they have zero corroboration in God's Book.

Let us start with 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9!

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Pretrib

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Posttrib

This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
This is the end!

The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful and thorough that none escape. This is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib packed with unsaved people.

The opposite to “wrath” here is shown to be “salvation.” Salvation involves a person taking a hold of eternal life. The antithesis is therefore a person experiencing eternal torment. The wrath of God will be poured out on the wicked at the end. They will then experience the second death.

To get around the climactic detail of this passage Pretribs try to separate the day of the Lord from the second coming of Christ. This totally distorts the wording, the harmony and the thrust of this passage and its detailed description of the fate of the saved and the lost. The day of the Lord is pushed 7 years ahead of the coming of Christ even though there is no mention of such in this text. Pretrib is therefore exposed by this text.

The writer actually warns the believer in the light of the awful unexpected destruction that overcomes the wicked at the coming of Christ for the believer to be watchful of that day so “that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We are told to “watch and be sober” of that day.

Let us try and sum up what this much-debated passage is telling us about Christ’s coming.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

grafted branch · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I already refuted you unless you reject the battle at the end of Millennium and you reject the second death in Scripture that takes place at the final Judgment. Only then will the last enemy be destroyed, and not before the Millennium, and not before the final Judgment.

I see you refuted me, but what I was asking was at which of the 6 points I listed do you find fault. You can’t just insist the millennium is still future and claim that as you proof.

Clare73 · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe Jesus also talks about the rapture, too; But it is Paul who reveals the rapture in it no longer being a mystery. I believe Jesus refers to the rapture in Matthew 22:30; Then in Matthew 22:31-33, Jesus refers to the flesh and blood bodily resurrection (that takes place in two phases - one for the Millennium, and a second one for the final judgment and the New Earth).

30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.” (Matthew 22:30-33).

Note: The words in blue above speaks of the Rapture, and the words in red speak of the flesh and blood bodily resurrection.

In its context of Mt 22:1-32, Jesus is not talking about two resurrections, he is making two points--
to the Sadducees who do not believe in the resurrection (v.1):

1) there will be no issue at the resurrection, as they present (vv. 24-28), of multiple marriages regarding whose husband the wife is, because "as the angels," there will be no marriage or giving in marriage after the one resurrection at the end of time,

2) what God said to Moses in Ex 3:6 proves life after death, for the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive (not in oblivion) waiting for the one resurrection of their spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) physical bodies.

The only relation of the rapture to this passage is the fact that the rapture will occur in conjunction with this resurrection at the end of time (1Th 4:14-17), where the saints will rise to meet Jesus in the air (v.17) and descend with him (v.14) to the final judgment.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I don't see how 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 event works right before the New Earth (i.e. after the Millennium). Paul makes a point about how there is a spiritual body and that we will be raised as a spiritual body in 1 Corinthians 15:44. This does not make any sense that this event would happen at this point in time because there clearly will be a flesh and blood body type resurrection with the Millennium, and after it. For those who were beheaded during the Tribulation period will live and reign with Christ 1,000 years. The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 also does not sound like it would happen right before the New Earth (i.e. at the end of the Millennium). What would be the purpose of meeting the Lord in the air if we will just have to come right back down for the judgment and or the New Earth?

In full disclose, I am amillinial so we are not on the same page escatilogically. Thanks for engaging!

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

grafted branch said:
I see you refuted me, but what I was asking was at which of the 6 points I listed do you find fault. You can’t just insist the millennium is still future and claim that as you proof.

So you believe the Millennium already happened?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
In full disclose, I am amillinial so we are not on the same page escatilogically. Thanks for engaging!

Not sure why you would deny the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Scripture plainly says that those believers in the Tribulation who are beheaded for Christ will live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4).

So what do you make of these words in red that are bolded? It sounds like a thousand year reign of Christ to me.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

Clare73 said:
In the context of Mt 22:1-32, Jesus is not talking about two resurrections, he is making two points--to the Sadducees who do not believe in the resurrection (v.1):

1) there will be no issue at the resurrection of multiple marriages regarding whose husband the wife is, because due to the nature, characteristics of their spiritual (imperishable) physical bodies, there will be no marriage or giving in marriage after the resurrection at the end of time,

2) what God said to Moses in Ex 3:6 proves that the spirits of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive (not in oblivion) for the resurrection of their spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) physical bodies.

The only relation of the rapture to this passage is the fact that the rapture will occur in conjunction with this resurrection at the end of time (1Th 4:14-17), where the saints will rise to meet Jesus in the air (v.17) and descend with him (v.14) to the final judgment.

The words I bolded in red show otherwise.

grafted branch · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So you believe the Millennium already happened?

No, I hold the Amil view that we are now in the millennium and Christ gets up from the right hand of God on the last day.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

grafted branch said:
No, I hold the Amil view that we are now in the millennium and Christ gets up from the right hand of God on the last day.

Uh, Satan is bound now? I just do not see that at all. I have encountered his minions before. How is Christ reigning with those saints who are beheaded again? It just doesn't seem plausible in a normal reading of Revelation 20:4.

Berean Tim · Dec 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is not in the original Greek. So, it is a man-made term that has no origin in Scripture.

Then "caught up" is a man made term as well ?? Harpazo (greek) means to be snatched away, in context in means caught up in the air. Jerome used a latin word to describe that. There are many languages, because it's not in English doesn't mean it's a "made up term" Paul used "gathered" to describe this event in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him.
I'm not sure I'm following you here, are you arguing the term used or the catching up of the saints ?

Clare73 · Dec 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is not in the original Greek. So, it is a man-made term that has no origin in Scripture.

It is the Latin translation of the Greek, which Latin translation is translated in the English as "rapture."

You don't think "fact of being transported" (rapture) is a good translation of it?

Clare73 · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
For me: The biggest arguments for the Pre-Trib Rapture is...

1. We do not know the day or the hour. But if am exclusively Mid Trib, or Post Trib, then I can know the day or the hour by all the signs happening around me in the Tribulation period. For soon as I see the Tribulation happen, then I can prepare myself for the Lord and live for Him. But we do not know the day or the hour. The Lord is coming in day that we will not expect. If we say that Lord is delaying His coming, we will begin to beat our fellow servants.

2. We can pray so as to escape the things in the Tribulation.

3. We are not appointed unto Wrath (Note: Granted this one is more against the Post Trib, then a Mid Trib).

See post #37.

But do you have even one Scripture which specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation?

JacksBratt · Dec 3, 2020

grafted branch said:
The problem with us meeting Christ in the air prior to it being the second coming is this …

Christ is currently sitting at the right hand of God (Colossians 3:1).

Christ remains seated until his enemies are made his footstool (Psalms 110:1).

The last enemy is death (1 Corinthians 15:26).

Christ can’t get up and meet people in the air for a rapture until death is no longer an enemy.

Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. However, He has the ability to get up and go somewhere. He isn't handcuffed to a throne. It's a figure of speech. That is His place of power.

I have a footstool... Even I don't have my feet on it all the time. Again, a figure of speech.

Christ will certainly not be deterred from meeting us in the air...for any reason. This is certainly not a concept that would negate the "catching up" or Rapture of the church.

sovereigngrace · Dec 3, 2020

Berean Tim said:
Then "caught up" is a man made term as well ?? Harpazo (greek) means to be snatched away, in context in means caught up in the air. Jerome used a latin word to describe that. There are many languages, because it's not in English doesn't mean it's a "made up term" Paul used "gathered" to describe this event in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him.
I'm not sure I'm following you here, are you arguing the term used or the catching up of the saints ?

We interpret direct from the Greek. We do not need to interpret Scripture from Greek into Latin and then into English to understand truth, as Pretribbers do to support their error. We interpret direct from the original language.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 3, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Show us here one passage in the sacred text that teaches your theory. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove."

Scripture shows that there is one future coming of Christ. The problem with Pretribbers is they list a pile of Scripture and fail to take them one at a time and let them speak for themselves. You quickly see they have zero corroboration in God's Book.

Let us start with 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9!

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Pretrib

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Posttrib

This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.

It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

This is the end!

The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful and thorough that none escape. This is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib packed with unsaved people.

The opposite to “wrath” here is shown to be “salvation.” Salvation involves a person taking a hold of eternal life. The antithesis is therefore a person experiencing eternal torment. The wrath of God will be poured out on the wicked at the end. They will then experience the second death.

To get around the climactic detail of this passage Pretribs try to separate the day of the Lord from the second coming of Christ. This totally distorts the wording, the harmony and the thrust of this passage and its detailed description of the fate of the saved and the lost. The day of the Lord is pushed 7 years ahead of the coming of Christ even though there is no mention of such in this text. Pretrib is therefore exposed by this text.

The writer actually warns the believer in the light of the awful unexpected destruction that overcomes the wicked at the coming of Christ for the believer to be watchful of that day so “that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We are told to “watch and be sober” of that day.

Let us try and sum up what this much-debated passage is telling us about Christ’s coming.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

Again, the beginning of 1 Thessalonians 5 refers to the Day of the Lord (Which clearly begins with the breaking of the 6th seal). There are several trumpet and bowl judgments that happen between the 6th seal and the coming of Christ. Again, the signs of a black sky and a blood moon appear for BOTH the 6th seal AND before the Day of the LORD in Scripture! This rules out any Post Trib view. Only a Pre-Trib or Mid Trib view will work here.

Signs Before the Period of Time Known As the
"Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Wrath":

The Sixth Seal: (Part 1):
(When These Signs First Appear, The Days of Vengeance Ends):

Sixth Seal Opened:

A Great Earthquake Happens, the Sun Goes Black, the Moon Turns Blood Red, Stars Fall From the Sky, the Heavens Shall Shake, the Waves of the Seas will Roar:

• Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

• Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

• Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

• Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

• Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

• Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Admonishments on the Coming "Day of the Lord":
(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):

• 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT

Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.

• 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

• Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

JacksBratt · Dec 3, 2020

grafted branch said:
No, I hold the Amil view that we are now in the millennium and Christ gets up from the right hand of God on the last day.

However, Satan is bound for the millennial age and not able to tempt anyone... I full well believe that he is out there tempting.. not bound and still walking to and fro like a lion looking to devour.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Not sure why you would deny the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Scripture plainly says that those believers in the Tribulation who are beheaded for Christ will live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4).

So what do you make of these words in red that are bolded? It sounds like a thousand year reign of Christ to me.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth reigns forever.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

It has already been established that He reigns forever. The 1000 year reference can be taken similarly to the Jewish idiom of "no time". God exists outside of time. " one day is, with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

sovereigngrace · Dec 3, 2020

Clare73 said:
It is the Latin translation of the Greek, which Latin translation is translated in the English as "rapture."

You don't think "fact of being transported" (rapture) is a good translation of it?

I think "caught up" is suitable. 'Rapture' has been contaminated by the Pretrib camp and has brought confusion to the body of Christ. That is why many of us do not use it.

Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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