zippy2006

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This is from Doestoyevsky's Devils, between Stavrogin and the monk Tikhon.


I first read this idea in his other works. It makes sense to me that sin begets sin. When we do evil, we often throw more evil after it, like lying to cover our tracks; or when we hurt someone, they lash out as well. Or how abused children often have personality disorders or become abusers, leasing to ongoing strife. Ultimately we don't know what effect our sin has had. If I steal someone's chocolate bar, leading to him having a bad day and yelling at his subordinate, who then kills himself - do I not partially bear responsibility? This chain of interconnected human interactions can just be extended indefinitely, both spatially and temporally. The way I raise my kids will make their actions partially my responsibility, as mine could perhaps be partially my parents'. The sins of the fathers and all that. How and where does the consequences of my actions cease, that I can say this was only a venial and not a mortal sin? How can I be certain that my actions might not result in this? Is that potential not sufficient that I may be volitionally accepting that such a consequence might occur, and sinning regardless? Does not only God have the necessary perspective to make this call? Further, I am partially responsible for the entirety of the world I find myself in, as who knows what action, when and where, could not have been significantly alleviating suffering. It is communal guilt, which we have placed upon our Scapegoat.

So it seems obvious to me that some sins should be worse than others, such as stealing a chocolate bar versus murder; but in practice, I don't really know if I can say if a specific sin was really only that sin, rather than my contribution to a far greater depravity.

Thanks Quid. I like that idea of Dostoevsky's too. All the same, I think distinctions, such as those between mortal and venial sin, are still possible and useful. Your idea reminds me of something like the Sorites paradox, where a certain vagueness in definition or knowledge is said to prevent a distinction altogether. Yet we can say with confidence that--ceteris paribus--to murder someone is more grievous than to steal half a day's wage from them.

My worry is that once Dostoevsky's principle is applied in anything other than a mystical context it has a tendency to become destructive of human responsibility in that no differentiation of sin or sinners is allowed. Further, the principle--and especially your interpretation--is consequence-based. It may sound odd, but I tend to place that consequential analysis more in the realm of natural evil than moral evil, particularly when we are talking about unintended, unforeseen, and especially unforeseeable consequences. For example, a just judge wouldn't charge the man who stole the candy bar with homicide, to take your example.

If we can't differentiate sin and we can't give a special priority to the evil of the proximate act itself (as opposed to its unintended consequences) then I'm not sure the moral understanding of life will survive. The key with respect to culpability is the act itself and the intended consequences, not unintended or unforeseen consequences. Morality really needs to focus on that aspect of malice or selfishness, and the danger of Dostoevsky's principle is that it draws us away from that.

Finally, I think there is a practical point to be made. Much of what you say is undeniable. We don't know the full consequences of our acts, we don't know what we are contributing to, we don't know how our sin will interact with other realities, and yet we still have to act day to day on the best knowledge we have. It's possible that our theft of a candy bar will lead to suicides, and it is also possible that a vengeful murder of a man will save millions of lives (if, for example, that man would have grown to be Hitler). It is also quite possible that we will make mistakes of self-judgment and will be judged differently by God, either above or below our own expectations. Even despite these possibilities I am comfortable presuming that murder is a mortal sin and stealing a candy bar is a venial sin.

Hence I am not particularly big on erecting a juxtaposition between the mortal and the venial. All sin should be repented of, and all are sinners before God. My decision to label some sin less than another seems more like the Pharisee praying in the temple; how he is better than other men. As the Publican, we are all sinners before God that require repentance and grace; and the danger of considering some sin less than others, runs the risk of saying I am less of a sinner (ie better) than my fellow.

One of the objections I noted in the OP was that it is sometimes hard to know which is which without some external legislator. One of the "pros" I gave was much the opposite: with concrete categories it is harder to deceive oneself and call a mountain a molehill. In Catholic teaching gravity is determined primarily by the object/species of the act, rather than the intention, even though the intention is important and can aggravate a sin considerably. That is to say, the sin is primarily judged on the basis of the action that is being carried out. Now if I am murdering people and I see a Publican murdering people, and I still hold that I am far and away above the Publican, then I think that problem must be traced to human nature rather than the doctrine of mortal sin.

The other point is that it isn't clear why the doctrine entails a "decision to label some sin less than another" rather than a decision to label some sin more than another. A common Lutheran objection would be just the opposite, that the doctrine of mortal sin leads people to believe they are in danger of Hell when in fact they are not. I take it that the same point could be applied to Dostoevsky's idea. Sinful acts could lead to good outcomes, such as that "felix culpa."

Perhaps a good way to approach the issue is to ask, "Is someone who believes in mortal sin and venial sin better off than either someone who believes only in mortal sin or else someone who believes only in venial sin?"
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello @zippy2006, I have often wondered what a venial sin actually is, so it might be interesting to have another thread titled: Venial Sin: Yea or Nay?

Does the RCC have an official list of venial sins, or at least an official description of what constitutes a venial sin?

Sorry to go off topic here, but as a Protestant, I find the idea of venial sins far more interesting (and Biblically perplexing) than the idea that sins are mortal .. Romans 6:23.

Thanks :)

--David
 
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zippy2006

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Hello @zippy2006, I have often wondered what a venial sin actually is, so it might be interesting to have another thread titled: Venial Sin: Yea or Nay?

Does the RCC have an official list of venial sins, or at least an official description of what constitutes a venial sin?

Sorry to go off topic here, but as a Protestant, I find the idea of venial sins far more interesting (and Biblically perplexing) than the idea that sins are mortal .. Romans 6:23.

Thanks :)

--David

Haha! That's a good question, and a difficult one. Especially after responding to Quid I noticed that my focus on mortal sin rather than venial sin is a bit arbitrary. I suppose I went that route because in my experience those who deny the mortal/venial distinction tend to treat sin as venial in practice.

But I don't think your question is off-topic. I didn't mean for the thread to be about mortal sin as opposed to venial sin. Indeed, I explicitly said that venial sin is entailed by the doctrine of mortal sin that I laid out. Let me collect my thoughts and get back to you on this one.
 
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St_Worm2

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Those born of God cannot commit sin.....period. Believers, I agree, can...yet I still find little reason to put their sins in categories.
Hello Raymond, I have never seen this distinction before, that there are two different kinds of Christians,

1. "Believers"
2. Those "born of God"​

Does the Bible make this distinction, and if so, where does it do so?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - here is the familiar text for the purpose of discussion.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

.
 
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Dave L

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The problem here is that you are quoting from 1 John, the same letter I referenced in my OP. Here is the verse I referenced:

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." (1 John 5:16-17, RSV)
Why does the same author explicitly contradict your claim that it is unproductive to categorize the sins of believers? He does just that two chapters later.
Saved people cannot remain in sin. If you see someone living in sin beyond a reasonable amount of time when compared to other sins of believers in the bible, they are not saved. They never were.
 
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The concept of mortal or grave sins is a sound one. However, I disagree with the Catholic-Orthodox view that such sins must be confessed to a priest. I also take issue with the definition of some sins that are described as grave/mortal. Still, I do congratulate Catholicism and Orthodoxy for their emphasis on certain sins and believe that this is a weak point within Protestantism, which tends to say that all sins are the same before God.
 
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St_Worm2

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The problem here is that you are quoting from 1 John, the same letter I referenced in my OP. Here is the verse I referenced:

"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal." (1 John 5:16-17, RSV)
Why does the same author explicitly contradict your claim that it is unproductive to categorize the sins of believers? He does just that two chapters later.
Hello again Zippy2006, St. John contradicts the idea that a believer cannot sin in Chapters 1 & 2 of his 1st Epistle as well. Take special note below of who the elder Apostle is writing to/writing about, as well the fact that not only does the he include those at every level of maturity in the Christian faith, he includes ~himself~ (as one who still sins and still needs a remedy for his sin) as well :preach: (see the pronouns in bold type)

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things ~to you~ so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

--David

 
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zippy2006

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Hello again Zippy2006, St. John contradicts the idea that a believer cannot sin in Chapters 1 & 2 of his 1st Epistle as well. Take special note below of who the elder Apostle is writing to/writing about, as well the fact that not only does the he include those at every level of maturity in the Christian faith, he includes ~himself~ (as one who still sins and still needs a remedy for his sin) as well :preach: (see the pronouns in bold type)

Thank you, this is most helpful.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It is clear from the text that Paul ask for "Those that are spiritual" to restore those that sin. Not spiritually mature, or generally mature.......this is something you would have to add in. He ask the spiritual to help those that sin. Why do you think this is? Why not those who are mature believers or mature spiritually? Why not those who have believed for a long time?

It is clear from scripture, that even devils are believers. It is clear from scripture, that even congregations of believers/brother, can know nothing about being born again:

"Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

Like I said.....you can believe and sin.....yet "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;"

If you do no agree with this quote from the bible....you can always find a verse that seem to contradict, or a "better" translation, which seems to match closer to what you believe, or find an older manuscript that leaves the the verse out all together. Or you can believe it as is. I find no fault in whichever you choose.

OK now I understand your position...

So was Peter not sinning when rebuked by Paul or was he not born again at that point?
 
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St_Worm2

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What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder.
Hi Zippy, I don't believe that a true Christian can lose his/her salvation (even by committing a serious sin), but that 'full fellowship' with the Lord (or as the psalmist put it, "the JOY of Thy salvation" .. Psalms 51:12) will not be restored until he/she confesses and repents of their sin (and the Lord forgives and cleanses them .. 1 John 1:9).

I believe (along with the Lord Jesus and St. Augustine too) that ALL of the elect (all ~true/born again~ Christians) WILL persevere in the faith to the end (albeit HIGHLY imperfectly at times), because the very One who saved/justified us in the first place has also promised to "sanctify" AND "preserve" us in the faith, and to see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13; Jude 24-25.

That said, if a person could (really and truly) lose or reject their salvation (by any means), the Bible seems clear, there would be no way for them to get their salvation back again.

Hebrews 6
4 In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is ~impossible~ to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


Hebrews 10
26 If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

You continue:
Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith.
Our progenitors' sin was taking a bite out of an apple from a tree in their own garden. If there truly are "venial" sins, then it seems to me that taking a bite out of an apple (even out of a stolen one) would surely have to be listed among them, yet this ("venial") sin resulted in the corruption, decay and death of the entirety of our race, as well everything else that was/is part of the created order in the universe (IOW, all of space/time and everything in it).

This is just one of the reasons that I find the idea of "venial" sin such a fascinating topic :)

God bless you!

--David
 
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JacksBratt

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What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? This doctrine is often associated with Catholicism and says that some sins are so grievous as to require a special form of repentance or reparation.

According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder. Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith. The closest scriptural parallel is 1 John 5:16-17.

This is just the basic idea, and this thread isn't meant to be about Catholicism or the specific Catholic understanding which involves sacramental confession and the like. This basic doctrine of mortal sin entails only a few things besides mortal sin. They are: venial sin, the state of grace, and the state of sin. I think most denominations hold to this doctrine in one form or another.

I have scrutinized the doctrine to some extent and I find that I am content with it. There are obviously pros and cons:


Cons and Objections
  • Emphasis is placed on the human act and one's ability to place themselves outside of salvation.
  • It may lead to a scrupulosity which focuses more on sin than on God.
  • It may lead to undue self-referentiality about the state of one's soul.
  • Without an authoritative legislator it is hard to understand which sins are mortal and which are venial.

Pros
  • The gravity of certain sins is emphasized. This is intuitive and follows the OT logic of differentiating based on the sin in question.
  • The doctrine threads a needle between the errors of presumption and despair.
  • It brings a concreteness to one's religious life that makes it much harder to deceive oneself.
  • The doctrine appears to be indispensable for the vast majority of Christians, namely those who reject both Universalism and OSAS ("Once-saved, Always-saved").
Although man kind hold some sins to be greater than others and punishable, in some cases here on earth.. God sees humans as sinners.. each and every one of us is a sinner.

When we die, we are either covered by the blood of Christ.. or not.

It matters not, at that time, whether you were an axe murderer, corrupt sales person, adulterer or just the average every day person who eats too much (gluttony) or tells lies or wants a car like his neighbor has ( covetousness).

When we die we are either found guilty of our sins and not pardoned by Christ. Or, we are found guilty of our sins and based on our faith in Christ's work on the cross, we are pardoned by Him by His mercy, for not giving us what we truly deserve, and His grace.. giving us something we are totally undeserving of.. eternal life.

In Christ's words, the only unpardonable sin, which is not forgivable... is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You cannot do this by accident.. It is a conscious rebuke of Christ and the Holy Trinity in which the person totally rejects Christ and follows the evil enemy. You will know that you have done this. It will be deliberate and conscious and permanent... and you won't care.
 
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zippy2006

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Thanks David. Let me try to combine both of your posts into one.

Hello @zippy2006, I have often wondered what a venial sin actually is, so it might be interesting to have another thread titled: Venial Sin: Yea or Nay?

Does the RCC have an official list of venial sins, or at least an official description of what constitutes a venial sin?

Sorry to go off topic here, but as a Protestant, I find the idea of venial sins far more interesting (and Biblically perplexing) than the idea that sins are mortal .. Romans 6:23.

Thanks :)

--David

The RCC does not have a special list of venial sins, but there are descriptions and definitions. I don't mind moving into specifically Catholic doctrine, but let me first try to give a more general answer to your question which doesn't rely specifically on Catholicism.

According to my OP a mortal sin is a sin which "places one outside of salvation." A venial sin would then be a sin which does not place one outside of salvation. Mortal sin is deadly sin, and venial sin is not. For example, I think most Christians, including yourself, would hold that apostasy is a mortal sin, even if they do not believe that an apostate can repent, return to the fold, and "regain" their salvation. I'll leave it there for now, but feel free to reply to both the non-Catholic and Catholic portions of this post.


Regarding the specifically Catholic understanding of venial sin, it is admittedly difficult. First, mortal sin is sin qua sin. Venial sin is some watered-down version of sin. Catholicism follows St. Augustine who says that (mortal) sin is, "An utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law" (Catholic Catechism, 1871). According to the Catholic Encyclopedia venial sin is then, "a thought, word or deed at variance with the law of God" (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sin).

Continuing with this idea that mortal sin is perfect sin and venial sin is imperfect sin, there are different ways that mortal sin could become imperfect or watered down. One example would be the way that the Old Testament distinguishes between intentional and accidental killing, where the punishment or sacrifice required for the accidental homicide is significantly reduced. Two important mitigating factors for Catholicism are a lack of knowledge or a lack of consent, "One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent" (Catholic Catechism, 1862).

Following St. Thomas Aquinas, the more technical way to distinguish mortal sin from venial sin is by recourse to reparability. "Accordingly, mortal and venial are mutually opposed as reparable and irreparable: and I say this with reference to the intrinsic principle, but not to the Divine power, which can repair all diseases, whether of the body or of the soul" (Summa: Venial and Mortal Sin). Mortal sin is deadly in that it attacks the very heart of the Christian life. It is an injury so serious that it can only be healed by God and if it is not healed we will undergo spiritual death. Venial sin is an injury that is not deadly and which can be healed or repaired without God's help (so to speak) because it is not an act directly contrary to God's law.

Now your second post:

Hi Zippy, I don't believe that a true Christian can lose his/her salvation...

Very good. I may have to come back to some of the finer points here, but I think you've made your position clear. You think that true Christians cannot lose their salvation, but that they must repent of serious sin in order to regain 'full fellowship.' False or non-elect Christians can fall away through sin. Finally, if it is possible that a person really could lose or reject their salvation, then they would not be able to regain it. Is that an accurate portrayal?

Maybe we can come back to some of the scriptural arguments, but I am curious what you think of 1 John 5:16-17.

Our progenitors' sin was taking a bite out of an apple from a tree in their own garden. If there truly are "venial" sins, then it seems to me that taking a bite out of an apple (even out of a stolen one) would surely have to be listed among them, yet this ("venial") sin resulted in the corruption, decay and death of the entirety of our race, as well everything else that was/is part of the created order in the universe (IOW, all of space/time and everything in it).

This is just one of the reasons that I find the idea of "venial" sin such a fascinating topic :)

Without looking up the official Catholic position what I would say is that there are two different things at play: 1) Taking a bite of a stolen apple, and 2) Disobeying a direct commandment of God. The grievousness of the sin results primarily from disobeying God's command. Indeed, this fits perfectly with Augustine's definition of sin, for it is a deed contrary to the law of God.

God bless you!

And you!

-Zip
 
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OK now I understand your position...

So was Peter not sinning when rebuked by Paul or was he not born again at that point?
I am not one for looking for and pointing out sins in others. Maybe you can ask the OPer this question, and follow it up with an enquiry about whether or not it was venial or mortal. And then ask......how does this information profit us.

Jesus was perfect.....I would not recommend patterning yourself after anyone else... yet would find no fault if you desired to do so.
 
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All have sinned.

All have fallen short.

The wages of sin is death... not just the wages of mortal sin is death.

Jesus paid the price of sin, not for a limited few.

IF one believes that the payment of Christ's blood is not enough... to cover all sins (With exception of against the Holy Spirit). how and why would they claim His name?

One that believes and accepts Christ, CAN sin, HOWEVER they do NOT sin because just as good deeds that work through us is the work of Christ Jesus through the Spirit. When we stumble, it is not we who sin, but sin, working through us.

IF we justify our sins, those sins tgat work through us.... then we are in agreement with that sin and we declare in our agreement that "it is good" that which God proclaimed is "wicked and detestable".

It is when we are in agreement with God and DO NOT justify our sins in our pride, that we are forgiven and stand with God.

That DOES NOT, give us license for sin, for IF we use tge blood of Christ as an excuse to validate our sinful ways.... are we not claiming justification, decieving ourselves that we stand with Christ, while standing in disagreement with Him.

How can we claim to be with God, IF we oppose Him in our pride...... and being proud... does He not oppose us?

For it is not the sinner that the Father opposes, but the proud.
 
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fhansen

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What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? This doctrine is often associated with Catholicism and says that some sins are so grievous as to require a special form of repentance or reparation.

According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder. Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith. The closest scriptural parallel is 1 John 5:16-17.

This is just the basic idea, and this thread isn't meant to be about Catholicism or the specific Catholic understanding which involves sacramental confession and the like. This basic doctrine of mortal sin entails only a few things besides mortal sin. They are: venial sin, the state of grace, and the state of sin. I think most denominations hold to this doctrine in one form or another.

I have scrutinized the doctrine to some extent and I find that I am content with it. There are obviously pros and cons:


Cons and Objections
  • Emphasis is placed on the human act and one's ability to place themselves outside of salvation.
  • It may lead to a scrupulosity which focuses more on sin than on God.
  • It may lead to undue self-referentiality about the state of one's soul.
  • Without an authoritative legislator it is hard to understand which sins are mortal and which are venial.

Pros
  • The gravity of certain sins is emphasized. This is intuitive and follows the OT logic of differentiating based on the sin in question.
  • The doctrine threads a needle between the errors of presumption and despair.
  • It brings a concreteness to one's religious life that makes it much harder to deceive oneself.
  • The doctrine appears to be indispensable for the vast majority of Christians, namely those who reject both Universalism and OSAS ("Once-saved, Always-saved").
The concept aligns not only with 1 John 5:16-17 where he speaks of "sin that leads to death" (i.e. mortal sin) but also with other parts of Scripture that insist that such sin excludes one from heaven (sin still earns us death IOW):

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

Mortal sin and persistence in it is said to be of such grave or serious nature as to directly oppose and destroy love in us. Sin is lawlessness, and love, as we know from Rom 13:10, fulfills the law, opposing and excluding sin by its nature. Anyway God, of course, judges by the heart which he knows far better than we do but the concept of mortal and venial sin gives us a good guideline, to help keep us vigilant in these matters, to help keep our hearts pure IOW. And we can still have a sincere change of heart if and when we sin in this way:

"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:6-9

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
 
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Yesha

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What do you think of the doctrine of mortal sin? This doctrine is often associated with Catholicism and says that some sins are so grievous as to require a special form of repentance or reparation.

According to the doctrine, these sins, when done with freedom and knowledge, place one outside of salvation. That is, when one commits a mortal sin they move from a "state of grace" into a "state of sin," and must repent of the sin in order to be forgiven and move back into a "state of grace." An example of a mortal sin would be murder. Less grievous sins are called venial sins and do not have such a dramatic effect on one's life of faith. The closest scriptural parallel is 1 John 5:16-17.

@zippy2006, I think the doctrine of mortal sin, if I understand you correctly, limits the efficacy of Christ's atonement and makes one's standing before God dependent on acts of men rather than the grace of God. Furthermore, it stands opposed to the eternal decree of election which frames redemptive history and provides assurance that all the elect of God will be gathered and kept to the end (Rom. 8:29-30) such that none will be cast out (Jn. 6:37-40).
 
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fhansen

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@zippy2006, I think the doctrine of mortal sin, if I understand you correctly, limits the efficacy of Christ's atonement and makes one's standing before God dependent on acts of men rather than the grace of God.
Actually the acts of men are said to be made right by the grace of God.
 
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zippy2006

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@zippy2006, I think the doctrine of mortal sin, if I understand you correctly, limits the efficacy of Christ's atonement and makes one's standing before God dependent on acts of men rather than the grace of God.

Okay. So is the idea that if the man who has sinned mortally does not repent then he will not be saved, and therefore his salvation comes to depend on his repentance rather than on God's grace?

Furthermore, it stands opposed to the eternal decree of election which frames redemptive history and provides assurance that all the elect of God will be gathered and kept to the end (Rom. 8:29-30) such that none will be cast out (Jn. 6:37-40).

Why couldn't the assurance of the elect entail that any of the elect who sin mortally will also repent of their sin? I think one could accept the doctrine of mortal sin and still hold that the elect will be saved.
 
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Yesha

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Actually the acts of men are said to be made right by the grace of God.

I'm sure you have a textual basis for that if you wouldn't mind sharing. The issue with mortal sin, as I understand it, is that it allows deeds of men to overcome, even if temporarily, the atoning work of Christ, which satisfied the wrath of God against all of the sins of his elect, even those considered mortal sins per the definition given. In other words, it says that man can do certain things so egregious that the redemption purchased by Christ's blood is not sufficient in itself to propitiate for the sinful act.
 
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fhansen

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I'm sure you have a textual basis for that if you wouldn't mind sharing. The issue with mortal sin, as I understand it, is that it allows deeds of men to overcome, even if temporarily, the atoning work of Christ, which satisfied the wrath of God against all of the sins of his elect, even those considered mortal sins per the definition given. In other words, it says that man can do certain things so egregious that the redemption purchased by Christ's blood is not sufficient in itself to propitiate for the sinful act.
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
 
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