Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Timtofly

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If we want the biblical name its called the “resurrection.” But if we want to make a distinction between the dead and the living on that day, I have no problem saying that living believers are “raptured.” They are going up together; that’s the main thing.
That is called "all will be changed". It is not a resurrection cause no one is dead or dying. Unless you are dead in Christ, and not alive in Christ? Those in Paradise are alive in Christ, not dead in Christ. No one can be dead and in Christ at the same time, period! Christ is the first resurrection, bodily, and all are alive in Christ. The only one's not fully alive are those stuck in dead bodies, walking around, thinking they understand it all. They post many things using Scripture, then use their own private interpretations to define Scripture. We all do.
 
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Timtofly

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I would say you are clear, what you are saying.

What I have is Paul speaks of "the resurrection" > 2 Timothy 2:18 > this is what I would say @Christian Gedge is talking about.

This says "the" resurrection . . . not "a" or "one of the". So, I take it to mean there is one resurrection event for Christians, which is of body and soul and spirit > 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

But you deal with what happens for one's spirit if a person dies before the bodily resurrection. I am open to the possibility that souls go to heaven, going by Revelation 6:9-11; and this is what I understand you mean by the spirit being resurrected first. But that is spiritual, individual, and not the whole body of Jesus as one being resurrected when He returns for His bride church.
I hate to burst this bubble. The church is already alive bodily in Paradise. There are not many of the church left on earth. Unless national revival breaks out in many nations, in the next few days, the majority of the church has already gathered in their permanent bodies, waiting to be glorified in the 5th Seal.
 
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AACJ

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Jesus must remain in heaven until the restoration of ALL things. That includes our glorification and restoration when he descends from heaven ...Act 3 ,1thess 4, 2 thess 1 etc....
If that were strictly true, or rather, if your interpretation is true, then Christ would not have already returned to earth--post Resurrection/Ascension--at least twice already (Acts 9:3-6; Rev. ch 1). Remember, in Rev. 1:17 Christ physically touches John.

Also, the Thess. Rapture event apparently does not include Christ standing on the earth, unlike His Return mentioned in Matt. 24.
 
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Sheila Davis

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I believe it's the timing that many Christians disagree with. It is taught in most churches the church will not be here during the tribulation. Scripture does not actually say that. Scripture says at the last trumpet all will be caught up together. According to Revelation 11:15 -19 _ verse 18 - the nation's were angry and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thou servants, the prophets, unto the saints, and them that fear thy name, great and small; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the Earth. (At the sounding of the last trumpet, Christ is here). There is no coming to Rapture the church, waiting for three and a half years for the Antichrist to rule the Earth, then coming back with judgement and Armageddon. All of it it's a simultaneous event - at the last trumpet as written in 1st Corinthians 15:52.
In the eighteen-hundreds Margaret MacDonald under-aged vision and John Darby started what the church is now considered the Rapture Theory. It became a popular teachings in the 1950s, some say by Billy Graham.
 
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I hate to burst this bubble. The church is already alive bodily in Paradise. There are not many of the church left on earth. Unless national revival breaks out in many nations, in the next few days, the majority of the church has already gathered in their permanent bodies, waiting to be glorified in the 5th Seal

Are you saying that you are in "bodily paradise " at this very moment in time? If so, what's that like?
 
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Dave L

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

The popular rapture doctrine is false and came about in the 1800s. Paul and Jesus say the biblical rapture of believers happens after the resurrection of believers on the last day.

“Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” John 11:24 (KJV 1900)

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.” (Daniel 12:2)

““Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV

“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” 2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 (KJV 1900)

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)

“Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”” (1 Corinthians 15:54–55)
 
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JacksBratt

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.
I full well believe in this event. It is not the "second coming of Christ" due to the simple fact that, at this time, Christ doesn't come to earth. He meets us in the air and we go back to heaven with Him for the marriage of the bride, the marriage feast and then we all return with Him at the second coming at the end of the tribulation.

Argue all you want. That's my view. If you study the traditions of a Jewish engagement, betrothal and wedding.. it fits quite nicely... IMO
 
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Gregory Thompson

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.
The biblical statement is true.

The fantasy weaved around it causing confusion and division is false.
 
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Arc F1

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

I believe it. Sounds like something good to go back and study this morning.
 
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Clare73

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.
One of the meanings of rapture is "fact of being transported," which makes it a good word for "caught up together with them in the clouds."
.
 
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Clare73

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Where does Scripture say that this event happens at the Second Coming of Christ?
Paul is the only NT writer to reveal the "rapture." We know about it only from him.

Without getting into the weeds (we can do that later, if necessary) on why Paul wrote 2Th, in 2Th 1:6-10,
Paul comforts the Thessalonians in their suffering, (v.4) with the fact that
God will punish those who persecute them (vv.5-6), and that
God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8) which is at the Second Coming,
and which judgment Paul locates with the resurrection (v.9), which is at the Second Coming.

So Paul locates the "rapture" (v.7) with the final coming of Jesus in judgment (v.8-9), which is at the Second Coming.
And he locates that judgment with the resurrection (v.9) at that Second Coming.
 
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Paul is the only NT writer to reveal the "rapture." We know about it only from him.

Without getting into the weeds (we can do that later, if necessary) on why Paul wrote 2Th, in 2Th 1:6-10,
Paul comforts the Thessalonians in their suffering, (v.4) with the fact that
God will punish those who persecute them (vv.5-6), and that
God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8) at the Second Coming,
and which judgment Paul locates with the resurrection (v.9), which is at the Second Coming.

So Paul locates the "rapture" (v.7) with the final coming of Jesus in judgment (v.8-9).
And he locates that judgment with the resurrection (v.9) at the Second Coming.

I believe Jesus also talks about the rapture, too; But it is Paul who reveals the rapture in it no longer being a mystery. I believe Jesus refers to the rapture in Matthew 22:30; Then in Matthew 22:31-33, Jesus refers to the flesh and blood bodily resurrection (that takes place in two phases - one for the Millennium, and a second one for the final judgment and the New Earth).

30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.” (Matthew 22:30-33).​

Note: The words in blue above speaks of the Rapture, and the words in red speak of the flesh and blood bodily resurrection.
 
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See the words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below, which proves chapter 5 is a part of chapter 4.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Post Tribulation Rapture - The Pre-Tribulation Paradox (1080p HD) - YouTube


.

The beginning of 1 Thessalonians 5 refers to the Day of the Lord (Which clearly begins with the breaking of the 6th seal).

Signs Before the Period of Time Known As the
"Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Wrath"
:


The Sixth Seal: (Part 1):
(When These Signs First Appear, The Days of Vengeance Ends):

Sixth Seal Opened:

A Great Earthquake Happens, the Sun Goes Black, the Moon Turns Blood Red, Stars Fall From the Sky, the Heavens Shall Shake, the Waves of the Seas will Roar:

Revelation 6:12-13

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts its unripe figs, when it is shaken by a mighty wind.​

Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken​

Mark 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.​

Luke 21:25-26

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.​

Acts 2:20

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:​

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

Admonishments on the Coming "Day of the Lord":

(A clue on when Day of the Lord will occur and a warning against desiring it):

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 NLT

Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.​

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,​

Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
After the 6th seal, a lot of judgments still need to happen (like the trumpet and bowl judgments) before Christ can come back at the 2nd coming.
 
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The biblical statement is true.

The fantasy weaved around it causing confusion and division is false.

But they say there is no rapture, and yet 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes a rapture like event. Therein lies the problem.
 
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Description of the Rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Clues Concerning the Rapture:

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


We are taught to look for that blessed hope and appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"


Promise of the Rapture:

(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"


The Rapture is a New Mystery Revealed:

1 Corinthians 15:51

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"


Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:

(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

Matthew 25:13

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."


We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

Luke 21:36


"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


What things shall we escape if we pray?

Luke 21:10


"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."

Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."

Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."
 
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A lot of times folks think that the wedding call takes place in Revelation 19 because verse 7 says that “the marriage of the Lamb is come.” Meaning, they think the wedding is still about to commence.

7 “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” (Revelation 19:7-9).​

But if you were to carefully look at this passage a little closer, you will read this:

7 “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.” (Revelation 19:7-9).​

So this means that Christ is already married to His bride because He calls her His wife.
 
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This is what leads me to believe that the “marriage of the Lamb is come”... is a continuation of the marriage ceremony with the marriage supper coming to the world. Therefore, this...

Marriage Supper in Revelation 19 is a Battle & Not a Literal Feast:


#1. Revelation 14 compares the reaping in the harvest of grapes with judgment. Grapes are food, and it is related to the destruction of wicked men. In Revelation 19, I believe this to be the case as well. In Revelation 19, it compares the marriage supper (food) with judgment (the battle of armageddon).

#2. Jesus offended the many disciples in the fact that they thought He was referring to teaching cannibalism in reference to His own body. Jesus said unless you eat of his flesh and drink of his blood you have no life in you. Obviously Jesus was speaking metaphorically. But Jesus did not explain the metaphor for them and tell them not to go away. Jesus said, “does this offend you?” The wine Jesus made. (that the wedding guests drank) represents his blood. For in the Lord’s supper, the wine and the bread are symbolic of Christ’s blood and body. Does that mean we literally eat of Christ’s flesh and blood? No. Peter was told to eat unclean animals and this was a picture of God accepting the Gentiles. So food relates to people. It is not uncommon analogy made in God’s Word.

#3. The spiritual meaning behind Revelation 19 is: “God will get satisfaction by His putting an end to sin so as to bring a thousand year reign of peace and righteousness.” For when somebody is hungry, and they eat a good meal, they have a great feeling of satisfaction. This is the picture that God wants us to think about by the use of the metaphor employed in Revelation 19. Our uniting with Christ (marriage) is joined with the fact that the wicked will receive justice (marriage supper) with God being satisfied in bringing in a long age of righteousness.

#4. A similar saying "eat the flesh of kings and captains" can be found in Ezekiel 39. However, a literal reading on Ezekiel 39 doesn’t make any sense. While birds are being called to the feast, the Son of Man is also being called to this feast, too. It says that the Son of Man will eat flesh and drink blood. Horses are also on the menu, as well. This does not make any sense unless it is referring metaphorically to winning a battle. Note: Most miss this detail and only see the birds in Ezekiel 39 eating. But the Son of man is also called to eat and drink of His enemies, too.

#5. A literal reading on Revelation 19 involving the suppers means that there would actually be two literal suppers. A mysterious supper that we do not get to see in Revelation 19 and then a supper for birds eating the bad guys upon the Earth. This is kind of strange and there is no explanation given in Scripture for these two unique feasts. But if it is just one feast that is metaphorical, it makes sense in light of what we see in the rest of Scripture (Ezekiel 39, John 6:59, etc.).

#6. Believers are related to birds like doves, and eagles, etc. in other parts of Scripture. So for saints to be referred to as fowl or as birds in Revelation 19 fits the metaphorical view on the Marriage Supper in Revelation 19.

#7. David says in the Psalms 23 that he prepares a table in the presence of his enemies. Meaning: His enemies will be consumed; For King David said in a previous psalm,

"I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed." (Psalms 18:37).​

The idea here is similar to Ezekiel 39 with the Son of man eating the flesh and drinking the blood of his enemies.

#8. Jesus answers his disciples by saying that there where the carcass is, there will be the eagles. If we are to assume that the eagles are not believers, then Jesus is giving more of a vague answer. But if the believers are eagles as Scripture teaches (Isaiah 40:31), then those who were taken (while one is left) are taken to a place where the believer is clearly being identified. Are believers going to hang out and watch birds eat the dead kings? Surely not. It is a metaphor.

#9. We are told by Paul that we are to be presented as chaste virgins to Christ. Obviously all believers are not literally virgins. This is speaking in spiritual terms. So this is a metaphor. We are also called the bride in Scripture. A bride is a woman. Yet, obviously not all believers are exclusively women. So the marriage of the bride to the groom here is metaphorical to a certain degree. It is not strictly literal. It is merely describing a joining to Christ. But we will not literally be a bride in the sense that we are women or that we will be female at some point. So the marriage is also a metaphor in part. So the idea is:
  1. We are chaste virgins = Metaphor.
  2. We are the bride of Christ = Metaphor.
  3. Marriage supper = Literal?
In other words, if the other two things are metaphors, then the last one is also a metaphor, too. Yes, I believe there will be literal suppers with the Lord Jesus Christ in the Millennium (and possibly in Heaven), but the Marriage Supper in Revelation 19 is not one of them.

#10. Revelation is a highly symbolic book that is filled with many strange metaphors. So it is not odd or strange that we encounter metaphors here in Revelation 19. In fact, to try to apply wooden literalism that flies against the metaphors that the Bible helps define for us elsewhere (Ezekiel 39) is to ignore the proper art in being a good Berean.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

I do not believe in the Pretrib rapture, but I believe we are “caught up” to meet Jesus when He comes.
 
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