If salvation was by deeds

5thKingdom

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Do you believe man is saved through faith?
Do you believe the thief had faith....
Then what of babies? Babies do not have the capacity to have faith, and yet we know that if a baby dies, they go to be with the Lord because GOD is good, and children are of the kingdom of God.


You are expressing your "feelings" not preaching Scripture.
There is NO SCRIPTURE that teaches babies (or unborn babies)
are saved. Since there is NO SCRIPTURE teaching that doctrine,
you are only expressing your personal "feelings" when you say
such a thing.


Do you think no babies were destroyed in the Flood?
Do you pretend all the babies is Sodom were saved,
even AFTER Abraham was told there were not even
10 righteous in the city?


Do you think all the Gentile babies were saved during
the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" when God was ONLY
saving Jews? The Bible gives no such teaching.


Clearly your "theory" has no Biblical support, you are
only expressing your "feelings", not preaching the Gospel.
In fact, you are ADDING to the Gospel (your "feelings")...
we are warned about ADDING to the Bible you know.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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When facing imminent death, it's not a surprise that he could have hoped there would be one! Again, we may read the words and think it's an affirmation of the belief in a future life or kingdom, but it doesn't necessarily mean that.


Please remember, the words recorded in the Bible are NOT
a reflection of the mind of some man (saved or unsaved), they
are EXACTLY what God wanted included in Scripture... which is why
we call it the "Word of God" (and not the word of the thief)


Jim
 
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Do you believe (understand) the Bible teaches that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved?

They were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
the Gospel or "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven"

Do you believe (understand) this Biblical Truth?


Jim

I started using words like, “I believe” as a part of the forum rule suggestions in not causing bitter disagreements amongs others here. I have a tendency to be passionate about my beliefs and it can taken the wrong way. So using such wording helps to calm down folks a bit and not think I am hitting them over the head with the Bible and shouting at them.

As for your Calvinistic claims: I did not come to this thread to debate Calvinism. No offense: But I consider Calvinism as about as silly as believing in a Flat Earth. I am not saying it is beneath me to discuss it by any means, but I just came out of endless back and forth debate on John 6:44-45 with someone who claims they are not Calvinist, and yet they appear to hold to some form of Calvinistic interpretation on this passage. So forgive me if I don't engage with you on Calvinism at this time.

Peace be unto in the Lord.
 
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You are expressing your "feelings" not preaching Scripture.
There is NO SCRIPTURE that teaches babies (or unborn babies)
are saved. Since there is NO SCRIPTURE teaching that doctrine,
you are only expressing your personal "feelings" when you say
such a thing.


Do you think no babies were destroyed in the Flood?
Do you pretend all the babies is Sodom were saved,
even AFTER Abraham was told there were not even
10 righteous in the city?


Do you think all the Gentile babies were saved during
the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" when God was ONLY
saving Jews? The Bible gives no such teaching.


Clearly your "theory" has no Biblical support, you are
only expressing your "feelings", not preaching the Gospel.
In fact, you are ADDING to the Gospel (your "feelings")...
we are warned about ADDING to the Bible you know.


Jim

Wow. All I can say is wow.
Not going to explain to you the mechanics of how basic morality works.
If you believe GOD is good to take babies who die and punish them in the flames of hellfire for all eternity, then by all means you are free to believe that way. Just know that is not what the Scriptures teach, and neither is it what basic morality teaches, either. Over the course of your past life: How did you know difference between the good guys vs. the bad guys when you watched a movie, or read a novel? Is it by their actions or is it because they say they are good and or bad?
 
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5thKingdom

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I started using words like, “I believe” as a part of the forum rule suggestions in not causing bitter disagreements amongs others here. I have a tendency to be passionate about my beliefs and it can taken the wrong way. So using such wording helps to calm down folks a bit and not think I am hitting them over the head with the Bible and shouting at them.


I understand. Nevertheless, you were stating what you "believe".


As for your Calvinistic claims: I did not come to this thread to debate Calvinism.


Did I mention anything about Calvin... or only SCRIPTURE.
Did you come to debate SCRIPTURE? Then why construct
a strawman when your doctrines (or "beliefs") are challenged
with SCRIPTURE?


No offense:


None taken


I just came out of endless back and forth debate on John 6:44-45 with someone who claims they are not Calvinist,,,


This may be NEWS to you but John 6 was written about
1500 years before Calvin was born. And Christians have
been reading and preaching John 6 for those 1500 years.
The words in John 6 are those of JESUS (not Calvin).


Of course, if John 6 contradicts your "gospel" then I understand
WHY you would want to reject or ignore (the Words of Christ),
otherwise your "gospel" is immediately destroyed.


Jim


BTW.... saying an understanding is "Calvinistic" does not disprove
that doctrine any more than saying that your understanding is just
"Arminian". You see, to disparage a "Calvinistic" view in favor of
holding an "Arminian" view is simply nonsensical.
.
 
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I understand. Nevertheless, you were stating what you "believe".

So you cannot say, “I believe the Bible teaches this, or that?”
Believe is just another word for faith.
I have faith or a belief in what the Bible says.
I believe the Bible says certain things. Don't you?
And your interpretation (or belief) on Scripture (concerning certain topics) is not something I agree with; And we both cannot be right.

You said:
None taken

This may be NEWS to you but John 6 was written about
1500 years before Calvin was born. And Christians have
been reading and preaching John 6 for those 1500 years.
The words in John 6 are those of JESUS (not Calvin).


Of course, if John 6 contradicts your "gospel" then I understand
WHY you would want to reject or ignore (the Words of Christ),
otherwise your "gospel" is immediately destroyed.


Jim


BTW.... saying an understanding is "Calvinistic" does not disprove
that doctrine any more than saying that your understanding is just
"Arminian". You see, to disparage a "Calvinistic" view in favor of
holding an "Arminian" view is simply nonsensical.
.

I can smell a person defending Calvinism a mile away. You don't have to refer to Calvin in order to use the same tactics that Calvinists use. I am not interested in debating Calvinism at this time, but I can see that you are.
 
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5thKingdom

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Wow. All I can say is wow.
Not going to explain to you the mechanics of how basic morality works.
If you believe GOD is good to take babies who die and punish them in the flames of hellfire for all eternity, then by all means you are free to believe that way. Just know that is not what the Scriptures teach, and neither is it what basic morality teaches, either. Over the course of your past life: How did you know difference between the good guys vs. the bad guys when you watched a movie, or read a novel? Is it by their actions or is it because they say they are good and or bad?


Apparently you did not read what I said.
I said you have no SCRIPTURE to support your "feelings"
And you PROVED me correct in your response which offers
no Scriptures... just more of your "feelings".

At least you could have ANSWERED the questions I posed...
but you could not. And why not? Because the SCRIPTURE
does not provide an answer for you.

So you can preach your "feelings" all you want.
Just know you are not preaching the Gospel... you are
ADDING to what the Bible teaches.

Jim


BTW.... what do you mean "basic morality"?
We are talking SCRIPTURE not your "feelings" about morality,
those are YOUR FEELINGS and your feelings can NEVER
(no, not ever) establish Truth or Biblical Truth.
.
 
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Apparently you did not read what I said.
I said you have no SCRIPTURE to support your "feelings"
And you PROVED me correct in your response which offers
no Scriptures... just more of your "feelings".

At least you could have ANSWERED the questions I posed...
but you could not. And why not? Because the SCRIPTURE
does not provide an answer for you.

So you can preach your "feelings" all you want.
Just know you are not preaching the Gospel... you are
ADDING to what the Bible teaches.

Jim


BTW.... what do you mean "basic morality"?
We are talking SCRIPTURE not your "feelings" about morality,
those are YOUR FEELINGS and your feelings can NEVER
(no, not ever) establish Truth or Biblical Truth.
.

Right, and Jesus wept, and a person can grieve the Holy Spirit.
So yeah, GOD has feelings.
GOD is also a good and a just GOD, too. I cannot explain this to you.
Only GOD can reveal such a thing to you.
 
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5thKingdom

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So you cannot say, I believe the Bible teaches this, or that?
Believe is just another word for faith.
I have faith or a belief in what the Bible says.
I believe the Bible says certain things. Don't you?
And your interpretation (or belief) on Scripture (concerning certain topics) is not something I agree with; And we both cannot be right.


All heretics "believe" the heresy they teach...
do you actually think that PROVES something?
I am still waiting for you to offer SCRIPTURE to
support your "feelings"... but you do not

And you continue to not answer my questions...
I wonder why?


I can smell a person defending Calvinism a mile away. You don't have to refer to Calvin in order to use the same tactics that Calvinists use.


You are hilarious.
Let me see if I can be like you.

I can smell a person defending Arminianism a mile away.
You do not have to refer to Arminius in order to use the same
tactics that Arminians use.

Do you SEE how foolish your reasoning?
Biblical Truth is ONLY found with harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures... you prove NOTHING by calling someone an
Arminianist or a Calvinist.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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The words “I believe” actually appears in the King James Bible several times.


Yes... and I ONLY asked you for SCRIPTURE to support
what you "believe". The Gospel teaches there are MANY
unsaved "tares" and false teachers in the church...
they all "believe" something (which is heresy)

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Right, and Jesus wept, and a person can grieve the Holy Spirit.
So yeah, GOD has feelings.
GOD is also a good and a just GOD, too. I cannot explain this to you.
Only GOD can reveal such a thing to you.


First, the fact that Jesus wept has NOTHING to do with our
current discussion.

Secondly... God is a good and just God (that is why HELL has
so many people - because God is righteous and just)... however,
God is also a consuming fire. Do not forget that part.

God sends MOST of mankind into eternal torment so PLEASE
do not give me that "God is love" nonsense unless you are
willing to talk about all those destined to eternal torment.

Jim
 
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Soyeong

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Then it should be NO PROBLEM for you to give me an example
from Scripture of someone doing "good works" BEFORE they
are regenerated. Please provide chapter and verse.

I haven't claimed that we do good works before we are regenerated.

Your analogies did NOT show that (if that was your purpose)
and WHY in the world would you want to make-up analogies
when you can quote Scripture instead?

I used both analogies and Scripture because analogies can make a concept in Scripture easier to understand. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those things is itself the content of his free gift, which is why I used analogies that show how a free gift can still require doing things. In Romans 6:23, the gift of God is eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, therefore obedience to the commandments is itself the gift of God, so it is a free gift that requires obedience, but that obedience has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift.

Wow... you had to go all the way back to Psalms 119
to find an example. Well, I am sorry to burst your bubble
but you must understand the CONTEXT of a verse/passage
before you can HOPE to ever understand the MEANING and
Psalms 119 is talking about someone ALREADY REGENERATED
so you proved nothing... there is no dispute regenerated people
product "fruit" (good works) as they "grow in grace".

I used both Psalms 119:29 and Titus 2:11-14 and could have used or Romans 1:5 or a number of other verses, but the verses that I used were sufficient to show examples of grace working in accordance with obedience where obedience is not about earning our salvation. Doing works can be about earning something, such as in Hebrews 11:6, but there can be other reasons for doing good works that are not about earning something, such as in the verses that I've listed, so saying that we do not earn our salvation by our works does not mean that the free gift of salvation does not require choosing to do works. The context can be helpful to correctly interpret something if it is relevant, but when David was regenerated is completely irrelevant to the point that I was making.

Once again, the CONTEXT of Titus 2:11-14 is the "elect".
If you want to prove your point then you will need to show
some Scripture that talks about the "good works" of man who
are NOT REGENERATED. There is no question, or dispute, that
God "works" in the regenerated both to "will" and "to do" of
His Good Pleasure.

Titus 2:11-14 describes the content of salvation for those who are being saved and the fact that it is referring to the elect doesn't change the content of our salvation, so that is completely irrelevant to my point. I have not claimed that Scripture talks about the good works of man who is not regenerated, so that is again completely irrelevant to my point about what Titus 2:11-14 describes as the content of salvation. Furthermore, Titus 3:5 also describes the same content of our salvation.

Again you forget CONTEXT.
You show me people who are ALREADY regenerated and try
to prove a point about people BEFORE they are regenerated...
do you not understand the difference?

I know Romans 3:10-12 is quoting from Psalms... it says clearly
"it is written". But the POINT that you do not understand is that
the CONTEXT of Romans 3:10-12 (and related verses) is talking
about the condition of men BEFORE they are regenerated.
Clearly it's NOT talking about men AFTER regeneration.
That is an important distinction you fail to make.
If you cannot discern the CONTEXT of a verse
you cannot know the MEANING of that verse.

You CONFLATE people after regeneration (Noah, Elizabeth, etc)
With people BEFORE regeneration (before they are "indwelt")
That is why your theology does not harmonize with the Bible.
You must be able to understand the CONTEXT of a verse/passage
(is it talking about regenerated people - or unregenerated people)
before you can HOPE to understand the MEANING of the passage,
or the Truth about the Gospel in general.

I suggest you ask yourself (before every passage you read)...
is this Scripture talking about regenerated people - or those
who are NOT regenerated. Otherwise you will only continue
to have confusion and contradictions in your "theories".
CONTEXT means everything in Scripture.


Jim

I could have equivalently made my point by saying that Romans 3:10 is not speaking about those who are regenerated, but about those who say that there is no God.
 
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garee

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Then it should be NO PROBLEM for you to give me an example
from Scripture of someone doing "good works" BEFORE they
are regenerated. Please provide chapter and verse.

Its the good work of God (Emanuel) working in a person to both will and do his good pleasure by which we are saved. .
God who is love is our first love or experience in believing God not seen. When we error by hardening our hearts we must repent as he turns us to do the first works again of him working in us .Beleive Emanuel. He is our treasure we have in these earthen bodies of death. .

He either does all the work in us (powerless ones)or he does nothing.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
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Albion

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Please remember, the words recorded in the Bible are NOT
a reflection of the mind of some man (saved or unsaved), they
are EXACTLY what God wanted included in Scripture... which is why
we call it the "Word of God" (and not the word of the thief)


Jim
But the word of God does record the thinking of men, both those who reflect the wisdom of God and also some who are examples of humans having gone astray or getting things wrong.

We are instructed by all of this, and we know that the Bible which records it all is the word of God because it is divinely revealed, just as you were pointing out.
 
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5thKingdom

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I could have equivalently made my point by saying that Romans 3:10 is not speaking about those who are regenerated, but about those who say that there is no God.


Of course those who say there is no God ARE THOSE
who are not regenerated.

Bottom line:
You need to understand the CONTEXT of a passage
(is it talking about regenerated or unregenerated)
BEFORE you can hope to understand the meaning.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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But the word of God does record the thinking of men, both those who reflect the wisdom of God and also some who are examples of humans having gone astray or getting things wrong.

We are instructed by all of this, and we know that the Bible which records it all is the word of God because it is divinely revealed, just as you were pointing out.


You are trying to generalize when we were talking about a very
specific event. There is a REASON why the thief said what he said
and a REASON why it is included in Scripture. Your initial comment
did not reflect that reality and that was the point I was making.

Jim
 
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Albion

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You are trying to generalize when we were talking about a very
specific event.
I was pointing out that your claim (i.e. that if it's the "word of God" it cannot include the doings or thinking of anyone who is not a shining example) is in error.

The Bible certainly DOES record actions and thoughts of some people who are not in step with God's commands, etc.
 
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5thKingdom

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Its the good work of God (Emanuel) working in a person to both will and do his good pleasure by which we are saved. .


Of course.
HOWEVER, you cannot say the same about those who were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... in other words, there is CONTEXT
to every verse. Is it talking about the elect or the reprobate?
If we do not discern the context we cannot hope to understand
the meaning.


God who is love is our first love or experience in believing God not seen. When we error by hardening our hearts we must repent as he turns us to do the first works again of him working in us .Beleive Emanuel. He is our treasure we have in these earthen bodies of death. .


Of course "our" represents the elect and NOT those
who were NEVER MEANT to be saved... so you cannot
apply your "theory" to both classes of people.


He either does all the work in us (powerless ones)or he does nothing.


Another example of needing to discern CONTEXT.
Does the word "us" represent (a) the saved "wheat" in the church
or (b) the unsaved "tares" in the church or (c) all the lost souls
OUTSIDE the church?

Since God separates humanity into three groups, we must
FIRST discern the context of a verse (which group is in view)
before we can hope to understand the meaning.

Jim
 
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While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).​

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).​

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).​

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).​

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).​

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).​
 
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