Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

Guojing said:
I thought the covid-19 issue has laid to rest the question on whether are there people with the gift of healing today?

Ding.....ding.....ding.......WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
I have a genuine question. If the gifts of healing ended after the apostles why are there some people who have continuously even after the apostles's deaths, even up to Christians living today that have gifts of the Holy Spirit? I'll explain. Paul describes what some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in 1 Corinthians 12. In 1 Corinthians 12:8-9 Paul says:

For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit.

Pay attention to the parts I've bolded. We've never in the last 2,000 years seen pastors and theologians utter knowledge and wisdom before? So Constantine came up with his great theology by himself? So, the pastor that you go to see on Sunday got all of his knowledge from the Bible by himself and not the Holy Spirit right? A great Theologian like RC. Sproul never uttered such unbelievable knowledge of the scriptures from himself right? No! They have the Holy Spirit helping them! Every great pastor or theologian asks for the Holy Spirits power to tell them what they should be talking about that day and what scriptures to read and for the Holy Spirit's power to help them decipher the scriptures. Same with some Christians too. We rely on God's power to help us decipher what scriptures to read and what they mean. It's all a gift and work from the Holy Spirit! And that's just the tipping of the iceberg though, Paul also said that a gift from the Holy Spirit is our faith. Every single child of God has this gift, (If you don't how are you a Christian. You cannot be a Christian without faith.). Or gifts of healing. This one could be debatable but one confirmed Case of healing is Joan of Arc. She healed people in front of the British so it's a confirmed act of healing. Why do you think they wanted to execute her for being a witch? It wasn't just because of her attire. It was also because she had the "powers" of a witch.

No, people still have gifts of the Holy Spirit, they always have, and they always will.

I do not agree. There are many Gifts of the Holy Spirit. However.....the "SIGN GIFTS" given by Christ to the ELEVEN in Mark 16 are not one of them.

You are free to think anything you want to but the words of Mark 16:14 can not be changed by brother and neither can 1 Corinthians 13:8-9............
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part".

I realize that when we WANT something we will go out of our way to make it happen but it is what it is.

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

chad kincham said:
You mean no one but the tens of thousands of Christians who lay hands on the sick and heal them?

Chad.......please tell all us us the answer to this very simple question.

If the gift of healing is valid today to MEN who we call "Faith Healers".......
WHY THEN HAVE OVER 1 MILLION DIED FROM COVID-19??????

Why don't all the faith healers set up healing tents in different parts of the world and put an end to this illness??????

zoidar · Dec 2, 2020

Major1 said:
By "THEIR HANDS" were the Apostles who had all of the Sign Gifts.

God granted signs and wonders by their hands.

zoidar · Dec 2, 2020

Major1 said:
Chad.......please tell all us us the answer to this very simple question.

If the gift of healing is valid today to MEN who we call "Faith Healers".......
WHY THEN HAVE OVER 1 MILLION DIED FROM COVID-19??????

Why don't all the faith healers set up healing tents in different parts of the world and put an end to this illness??????

This is why:

"Maybe you think the gift of healing means always be able to heal, like Jesus did. That's not my view. I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to the gifted Christian when a healing is to take place."

Not even the apostles that had the gift of healing did as many miracle healings as Jesus. Why would that be if they had the power to heal whenever the liked?

nolidad · Dec 2, 2020

Albion said:
Okay. I assume that there is widespread agreement with your point there.

Those are several common views of the matter, yes. However, the perspective of Cessationists is much more direct that any of that.

The gifts did cease to be a significant or definitive part of the life of the Church sometime during the ancient period. I agree that there probably were occasional instances of someone being said to have the gift of tongues or one of the other gifts after that, but as far as such a thing driving the Church or characterizing the faith, or having anything much to do with converting the remaining masses of pagans...no.

So they ceased for all intents and purposes, and people who understand this are called Cessationists for that reason.

Well whether they ceased or not we cannot know for sure. Even i the Apostolic age, there is not much print given to write abou t the gifts being demonstrated.

I as the church believing was shrinking as the apostate church was growing from teh 4th -16th centuries, One would expect teh gifts empowered by the Spirit to shrink as well! Most of Christendom was not walking by the Spirit but by dogma of a man made institution. As teh reformation took hold over time, we see a progression:

1. The bible becoming readily available to the masses.
2. the old doctrines were called into question.
3. biblical doctrine was being reborn in the lives of the believers.
4. systematic Study began to grow and with it the beginning of systematic theology.
5. as the more critical issues were now well established and rooted in many churches. teh gifts once again began to be manifested. (turn of teh 20 th century approx)

Now once again Pentacostalism has way overblown the gifts of tongues, prophecy and healing. They were given by god to minister and edify teh church not to take over the mindset of churches in a large degree. Also tongues is the least of the gifts. It is for self edification which is then supposed to turn to edifying the church because that person has been built up !

Well that is how I see it through my rose colored glasses.

Ohorseman · Dec 2, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

You say there is the 1 and the 2. HOWEVER, there is a 3rd. Apostolic Succession. I am no Roman Catholic... but I must admit, it fits and satisfies much here.

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

Ohorseman said:
You say there is the 1 and the 2. HOWEVER, there is a 3rd. Apostolic Succession. I am no Roman Catholic... but I must admit, it fits and satisfies much here.

There is NO SUCH thing as Apostolic Succession found in the Bible. That is a 100% Roman Catholic thought and false teaching.

Now I do not expect you or anyone else to accept that so I ask YOU to do the stury. YOU do the work but I can tell you before you begin, whether you use your Bible, a commentary or the internet........ nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any other New Testament writer set forth the idea of “apostolic succession.”

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

nolidad said:
Well whether they ceased or not we cannot know for sure. Even i the Apostolic age, there is not much print given to write abou t the gifts being demonstrated.

I as the church believing was shrinking as the apostate church was growing from teh 4th -16th centuries, One would expect teh gifts empowered by the Spirit to shrink as well! Most of Christendom was not walking by the Spirit but by dogma of a man made institution. As teh reformation took hold over time, we see a progression:

1. The bible becoming readily available to the masses.
2. the old doctrines were called into question.
3. biblical doctrine was being reborn in the lives of the believers.
4. systematic Study began to grow and with it the beginning of systematic theology.
5. as the more critical issues were now well established and rooted in many churches. teh gifts once again began to be manifested. (turn of teh 20 th century approx)

Now once again Pentacostalism has way overblown the gifts of tongues, prophecy and healing. They were given by god to minister and edify teh church not to take over the mindset of churches in a large degree. Also tongues is the least of the gifts. It is for self edification which is then supposed to turn to edifying the church because that person has been built up !

Well that is how I see it through my rose colored glasses.

I challage that thought.

#1. We can read and accept the Bible as true and reliable.

#2. IF the sign gifts are still operating today then why ARE YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS SUPPORTING THEIR EXISTANCE GOING FROM HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL HEALING THOSE WITH COVID-19???????

Honestly......I weary at all the talk about this and NO ONE does anything to prove it.

TOO much talk and TOO little action.

Lets get out there and heal some sick people or begin to look at this situation WITHOUT
Rose colored glasses. Sometimes reality is the best medicine.

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

zoidar said:
This is why:

"Maybe you think the gift of healing means always be able to heal, like Jesus did. That's not my view. I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to the gifted Christian when a healing is to take place."

Not even the apostles that had the gift of healing did as many miracle healings as Jesus. Why would that be if they had the power to heal whenever the liked?

That is just not true my brother. Not true at all.

I do not mean to be rude or disrespectful, but have you read the Bible thoroughly????

The Bible truth is that ALL the Apostles had ALL the Sign gifts and did what Jesus did including raising the dead.

"Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!" (Matthew 10:7-8).

The disciples followed instructions and returned, sharing about all the great miracles they performed (Luke 9:10).

Peter walked on water (Matthew 14:28-31).

All believers spoke in foreign languages (Acts 2:4).

Many signs and wonders performed (Acts 2:43; 5:12).

Peter & John healed the lame man (Acts 3:1-11; 3:16).

Peter's shadow fell on the sick, healing them (Acts 5:15-16).

Philip cast out demons and healed the lame (Acts 8:7; 8:13).

Peter & John laid hands on believers who then received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17

Peter heals lame Aeneas in Lydda (Acts 9:32-35).

Peter raised Tabitha, aka Dorcas, from the dead (Acts 9:36-43).

Paul cursed and blinded the blasphemous Elymas the sorcerer (Acts 13:11-12).

Paul & Barnabas performed signs and wonders in Iconium (Acts 14:3).

Paul & Barnabas healed the crippled man who had faith (Acts 14:8-10).

Paul & Silas cast a demon out of a fortune telling slave girl (Acts 16:16-18).

Paul given extreme power for many unusual miracles. People touched him with aprons and handkerchiefs and laid the cloths on the sick and demon-possessed, who were then healed (Acts 19:11-12).

Paul raised Eutychus from the dead after a terrible accident (Acts 20:9-12).

Paul unharmed by poisonous snake bite in Malta (Acts 28:3-6).

Paul healed Publius' father of fever and dysentery (Acts 28:7-8).

Paul healed all sick people on the island of Malta (Acts 28:9-10).

Read more: Miracles of Jesus' Apostles

Major1 · Dec 2, 2020

zoidar said:
God granted signs and wonders by their hands.

Correct! THEIR hands were the Apostles.

You are placing your wants to believe with what the Bible actually says my brother.

Mark 16:14........
"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen."

Ohorseman · Dec 2, 2020

Major1 said:
There is NO SUCH thing as Apostolic Succession found in the Bible. That is a 100% Roman Catholic thought and false teaching.

Now I do not expect you or anyone else to accept that so I ask YOU to do the stury. YOU do the work but I can tell you before you begin, whether you use your Bible, a commentary or the internet........ nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any other New Testament writer set forth the idea of “apostolic succession.”

Me? That's funny. No scholar am I. I can barely read. This guy in this YouTube is on point. Though he speaks of the Pope mostly, within his work is much mention of the "eleven". The idea of there being offices and the "gifts" being passed on by the "laying on of hands" is an amazing idea with rich Biblical standing. Hard for me to swallow since I myself am a protestant to the bone. But, it's there my brother and no worse than your work. Maybe you could take a listen. It certainly offers something to think on... unless you are convinced that you are already at bullseye. That way, neither you nor I have to do the "stury".

klutedavid · Dec 2, 2020

swordsman1 said:
Just because Paul makes mention of a particular gift in his letter to the Corinthians doesn't mean it must be present throughout all ages.

I disagree.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Paul says that the most pre-eminent spiritual gift is apostleship (1 Cor 12:28). That doesn't mean there must be apostles today.

Obviously, the ministry of an apostle was specifically subject to eye witness accounts. But the office of an evangelist, teacher, e.t.c., are still valid.

Paul's letter was addressed to the Corinthians, not all churches. "To the church of God which is at Corinth" (1 Cor 1:2).

Agree, but the issues raised will apply to all churches.

Throughout his epistle he is dealing with problems that were specific to the Corinthian church only, not all churches.

Disagree.

If it was addressed to all believers worldwide it would mean we are all guilty of abuse of the Lord's table, sexual immorality, creating divisive factions, taking fellow believers to court, opposing Paul's authority, etc. etc.

So only the Corinthian church had sexual immorality?

You made need to retract that statement.

Only the Corinthian church had divisive factions?

Church history is overflowing with church division.

The same applies to their use/misuse of spiritual gifts. Have you ever noticed how many times Paul uses the word "you" in 1 Cor 14? He was referring to the Corinthians, not us.

Agreed, but the overall instruction applies to us all. The Corinthian church was not a unique church, every problem in the Corinthian church will be evident in all church movements.

Of course we can heed the instructions Paul gave the Corinthians, but only in situations that apply to us today.

Correct.

For example, do Paul's instruction regarding head coverings apply to women today, or was that only relevant to the culture of the time when women generally wore head-coverings as a symbol of submission to their husbands?

A trivial comment.

klutedavid · Dec 2, 2020

Albion said:
Those gifts were NOT forbidden by those who were alive at the time. In fact, they have not been forbidden in the centuries since, either.

Who's talking about prohibition?

We are actively promoting the ministry and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:11-12
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.

Romans 12:6
However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, in proportion to one’s faith.

I know that some charismatics like to talk as though somebody is prohibiting them from practicing their religious beliefs...but no one does.

There is really no such term, 'charismatic'. There is only a Holy Spirit driven Christian church. If you belong to any other type of church, then your church is a dead church.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power.

zoidar · Dec 3, 2020

Major1 said:
That is just not true my brother. Not true at all.

I do not mean to be rude or disrespectful, but have you read the Bible thoroughly????

The Bible truth is that ALL the Apostles had ALL the Sign gifts and did what Jesus did including raising the dead.

"Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!" (Matthew 10:7-8).

The disciples followed instructions and returned, sharing about all the great miracles they performed (Luke 9:10).

Peter walked on water (Matthew 14:28-31).

All believers spoke in foreign languages (Acts 2:4).

Many signs and wonders performed (Acts 2:43; 5:12).

Peter & John healed the lame man (Acts 3:1-11; 3:16).

Peter's shadow fell on the sick, healing them (Acts 5:15-16).

Philip cast out demons and healed the lame (Acts 8:7; 8:13).

Peter & John laid hands on believers who then received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17

Peter heals lame Aeneas in Lydda (Acts 9:32-35).

Peter raised Tabitha, aka Dorcas, from the dead (Acts 9:36-43).

Paul cursed and blinded the blasphemous Elymas the sorcerer (Acts 13:11-12).

Paul & Barnabas performed signs and wonders in Iconium (Acts 14:3).

Paul & Barnabas healed the crippled man who had faith (Acts 14:8-10).

Paul & Silas cast a demon out of a fortune telling slave girl (Acts 16:16-18).

Paul given extreme power for many unusual miracles. People touched him with aprons and handkerchiefs and laid the cloths on the sick and demon-possessed, who were then healed (Acts 19:11-12).

Paul raised Eutychus from the dead after a terrible accident (Acts 20:9-12).

Paul unharmed by poisonous snake bite in Malta (Acts 28:3-6).

Paul healed Publius' father of fever and dysentery (Acts 28:7-8).

Paul healed all sick people on the island of Malta (Acts 28:9-10).

Read more: Miracles of Jesus' Apostles

Hm, thanks! You may be right about that. When I wrote that post, afterwards I thought to myself if that is true, but I let it be. This leads me to: We are supposed to do such miracles as well. The church needs to be one fire again for Jesus. I'm sure God has that plan for us. We'll see...

zoidar · Dec 3, 2020

Major1 said:
Correct! THEIR hands were the Apostles.

You are placing your wants to believe with what the Bible actually says my brother.

Mark 16:14........
"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen."

You are of course free to believe what you wish. I know why you do, I also know why I believe God is still giving us these gifts. Maybe you'll see one day. Until then, the Lord keep you and bless you!

Christ love!

1an · Dec 3, 2020

Major1 said:
What is really.....interesting and actually funny. The 14th chapter of 1 Corth., in fact 12-14 are all e "Corrective" chapters about what is to not be done in church with the focus on "TONGUES".

Now that being said and anyone can read those Scriptures and verify my comment, notice chapter 14:34............
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

Now we know that women spoke in the church so Paul is saying that Women are not to speak in TONGUES in church".

If women were not allowed to speak in TONGUES in church there would in fact be no tongues movement at all!!!

Thoughts?????

The reason for Paul saying women should keep silence in the church is due to the boys and men having a temple education which the women did not get. The services, were in Koin Greek while the women only knew the language of the market place. Not being able to understand, the women started to chatter among themselves. We wouldn't want that in our churches would we, and as they all sat together, I can imagine the disruption it would cause. Then (verse 34) the women were to ask their husbands when they got home, and they could explain to the children, and no, the women were not speaking in tongues.
.

1an · Dec 3, 2020

Major1 said:
Those Scriptures do not refer to the Sign Gifts.

I have never heard the phrase Sign Gifts. Do you mean the visible signs of physical healing for example?
.

klutedavid · Dec 3, 2020

1an said:
I have never heard the phrase Sign Gifts. Do you mean the visible signs of physical healing for example?
.

I agree. That was a new one and I have never heard of such a thing. I think someone is making it up as they go.

All the gifts and ministries are visible events.

zoidar · Dec 3, 2020

1an said:
I have never heard the phrase Sign Gifts. Do you mean the visible signs of physical healing for example?
.

klutedavid said:
I agree. That was a new one and I have never heard of such a thing. I think someone is making it up as they go.

All the gifts and ministries are visible events.

Aren't all miracles signs? Whether small or big.

Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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