How do We Know if We are In Him?

How do we know if we are in him?

  • By keeping the word that we heard from the beginning.

    Votes: 14 77.8%
  • There is another way.

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • Total voters
    18

Strong in Him

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The Gospel was given in Genesis:

(CLV) Gn 3:15
And I shall set enmity between you and the woman And between your seed and her Seed. He shall hurt you in the head, And you shall hurt Him in the heel.

No.
A Saviour was prophesied in Genesis, and by Isaiah and others.
But the Gospel of salvation through Christ's death on the cross, was proclaimed by Christ and his followers.

That Gospel is not, never was and never will be "repent and be circumcised; obey the Mosaic law and receive eternal life."
 
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Soyeong

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Some, probably many, probably very very many maybe, are still all going to still be saved regardless of their living or not living up to the law perfectly or not, etc, note when I say "law", I make little to no distinction in this case between the Spirit or the letter of it as far as the moral law is concerned, etc, even though I think the standards of the Spirit of it/them (the law, etc) is even very much more higher, etc, or is even a way very much more higher standard, etc...

You are correct that is a work of God's grace and God's grace alone that causes us to live up to any kind of standard or rules of law, and you are very correct there, etc, but saying meeting up to the high standard perfectly is always a salvation issue for all always, and in all cases at all times, etc, is just false, sorry...

Cause it is not always, etc, some are more or less able than others, according to how God has given each one ability, or inability, etc, but my point is only God knows that, etc, each one's own unique abilities or inabilities, etc, so we cannot say that living up to the very high standards of "the Law" is salvation issue for any and all, all of the time perfectly, etc...

I have never stated that we need to have perfect obedience in order to become saved, though choosing to live in obedience to God's law is what Jesus saving us from living in disobedience to God's law looks like. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Obedience to God has never been about needing to reach a high enough standard.

Obeying the spirit of the law is obeying it according to its original intent, which is not a higher standard than the law, though it is a higher standard than the obeying the letter of the law, which is a perversion the law that undermines both the intent of what God commanded and why He commanded it.

Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are moral laws and there are no examples in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral, so there is not a subset of laws that are the moral laws.

God will judge each one according to his or her own either, ability or inabilities, and/or each ones own personal responsibility or not responsibility also, etc, amounting to "accountability", etc, which only He knows, etc...

The only bearing I think it will have for most, among believers anyway, is just maybe a reflection of maybe "maturity" maybe, and ones own place maybe in the "rank" of or in Heaven maybe there, etc, but before you think you will be one who is called "great" there, etc, and getting all puffed up about it, etc, just also remember that anyone who is "great" there, is also the "greatest servant of all" there also, etc, and if that is not already in his or her own spirit/person, etc, as a part of the maturity that is already there, or is already supposed to be there, etc, then I don't know so much about your truly being called great there, etc, not that you should even call or even ever refer to yourself as "great" there, even if you ever are or were "great" there, or are or were or ever did ever truly become "great" there, etc...

God's law was not given to puff us up, but rather the way to be great in the Kingdom is by obeying it and by teaching it to others:

Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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HARK!

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No.
A Saviour was prophesied in Genesis, and by Isaiah and others.
But the Gospel of salvation through Christ's death on the cross, was proclaimed by Christ and his followers.

Again, we were given the news that YHWH would save us from the beginning.

Isiah confirms it.

(CLV) Isa 19:20
And it will be for a sign for the eon, And for a testimony to Yahweh of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to Yahweh fin view of their oppressors, Then He shall send to them a Saviour, And He will descend, and He will rescue them.
 
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Strong in Him

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Again, we were given the news that YHWH would save us from the beginning.

Isiah confirms it.

(CLV) Isa 19:20
And it will be for a sign for the eon, And for a testimony to Yahweh of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to Yahweh fin view of their oppressors, Then He shall send to them a Saviour, And He will descend, and He will rescue them.

Looking back, we can see that Jesus' coming was prophesied in the OT, yes.
And it's certainly true that God had provided a Saviour before we knew that we needed one.
But the OT was not about salvation through Jesus - they had no concept of him.
Most people in the NT didn't even realise that a) he was the Messiah, b) that he was also God and c) that his death on the cross would mean salvation and reconciliation to the Father.

The Gospel never has been, and never will be, "keep the law and have eternal life".
 
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Gary K

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It amazes me how often we forget the teachings of Paul.

In Galatians 5 Paul lists the sins of the flesh and says that anyone who does these things will not enter the kingdom of heaven. He's very plain about that. So, breaking the law of God will exclude us from heaven. That's pretty tough news.

Paul then gives us the good news. He lists the behaviors known as the fruit of the Spirit and tells us these break no law. And that includes the law of God. So, right there is the answer to keeping the law.

In the OT God tells us that He is the one that sanctifies us. Exodus 31:12,13 He repeats this in Ezekiel 20:12,20. All of us know the failure of making ourselves holy by experience for all of us have tried and failed at it. God even tells us that we who are used to doing evil can no more do good than the Ethiopian can change his skin or the leopard change his spots. But then He says, come and let us reason together and our sins, as red as scarlet and the color of crimson, shall be made white as snow. Paul also tells us that it is God who worketh in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.

I can't give you all the instances of this or this post would be many pages long so you need to do a word study on the word "let". Here are a couple of examples of how it is used.
Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Notice that Paul didn't say struggle to not sin. He said let not sin reign over us. Let us put on the armor of light. That's a huge difference. He is pointing to something within us that has given us possibility the victory over sin. This points us back to the fruit of the Spirit, for it is that which breaks no law, and what he said about it being God who worketh in us both to will (choose) and to do (behave) according to God's good pleasure. And Matthew told us that Jesus came to save us from our sins.

So what is the secret to overcoming sin? John told us: whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not. So why do we still fall into sin? Because of the inconstancy of our abiding in Jesus. It's our lack of focus on living for Jesus every moment of our lives. We get distracted by temptation, get focused on life's burdens, sorrows, and shallow entertainments, etc.... Jesus told us that those who don't take up our own cross and follow Him are not worthy of Him. Jesus' cross was the total abnegation of self for He said He did only that which His father told Him to do. He gave up self to the point of literally giving up His life. As Jesus is our example our cross is also giving up on self and becoming completely focused on Jesus. And when that happens our abiding in Jesus will be complete and we will not engage in sinful behavior because whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.

Read Ezekiel 36:24-32. We have the promise of new hearts and that God will cause us to walk in His statutes and judgments. He tells us that we will look back on who we were and loathe ourselves because of what we have done. What a promise. It is God who worketh within us both to will and do of His good pleasure. And Jesus tells us that what He says He will do in us according to our faith. Matthew 9:27-30

Our righteousness is by faith. That includes both justification and sanctification.

I'll close this post with this from Paul:
1Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
 
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RaymondG

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The question is "how do we know we are in him?"

It seems as though you are trying to relay that those that are in him....keep his commandments. I agree....however there are many that keep these commandments outwardly, that are not in him.

So how do you know those that are in him, among a group of people who keep commandments?

Remember the rich man kept every commandment Jesus mentioned, from birth.....yet this was not the mark of being "in him." More had to take place....
 
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(CLV) 1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just....

I would add also this:

...Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
 
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HARK!

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It seems as though you are trying to relay that those that are in him....keep his commandments. I agree....however there are many that keep these commandments outwardly, that are not in him.

So how do you know those that are in him, among a group of people who keep commandments?

Remember the rich man kept every commandment Jesus mentioned, from birth.....yet this was not the mark of being "in him." More had to take place....

Circumcision is an outward sign of what has taken place within. Elohim wants foremost, circumcision of our hearts. Elohim knows our hearts. For us, we will know them by their fruit.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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(CLV) 1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.

How many Pastors have you heard open up their sermons with this verse?


(CLV) 1Jn 2:2
And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:3
And in this we know that we know Him, if we should be keeping His precepts.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:5
Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are in Him:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.

Another passage that says the same thing is Ephesians 2:8-10. We are saved with God's free gift of grace through faith in verses 8 and 9, not by our good works; but in verse 10, the result is our good works which God enables us to do like his handiwork. Those verses are in the first half of Ephesians, which emphasizes the "already" of God's salvation and which is John's emphasis throughout his first letter.

But the last half of Ephesians has Paul's "not-yet" commands based on Ephesians 2:10 because we are not yet perfect in our daily living and need to be commanded to make spiritual progress toward the goal of resurrection perfection, which we will gain as God's gift when we are resurrected.

Always remember that the "already" and the "not yet" of the Good News are both true and are accomplished by Jesus with his death and resurrection (the first) and is being accomplished by the Holy Spirit in us as we listen to and read his Word and by Jesus' victory.
 
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Blade

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Leaving out the rest of just the NT about "in Christ" and only post a few verses well one can then make His word say almost anything they want. This just gets silly. Well what do you tell a new believer at that moment they repent and come to Christ? Yeah they don't know Him at all. Some here do not KNOW Him. Its not just keeping His word .. ta da! I love Jesus now! There are countless around the world that keep His word yet do not know Him at all.

Some of this stuff is.. your trying to force feed babies to eat meat and they can't. Just tossing out His word in tiny parts with no depth can case many to stumble and fall. You quote 1st John.. to whom exactly was John talking to? There are different beliefs on this.. does that matter? He was writing to someone.

No offense there seems to be something of old in this that you bring out allot. So many times its not GOD talking to others.. its GOD talking to us :)

So I am in Christ He is in me.. and so many time I am not keeping His word.. I love Him He loves me. Kind of hard to NOT be in Christ when your "grafted" in to the vine huh. For that branch can not have any fruit out side the vine. We are all in Christ. Are you grafted in or not? Theres more then just grafted in. You have to take ALL the word not just a few verses. It ALL flows together.
 
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lsume

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(CLV) 1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.

How many Pastors have you heard open up their sermons with this verse?


(CLV) 1Jn 2:2
And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:3
And in this we know that we know Him, if we should be keeping His precepts.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:5
Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are in Him:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.
It’s impossible to be obedient if you are not in Him.
 
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HARK!

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As is baptism.
Circumcision OT; baptism NT.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian.

This means forever. Don't tell me that YHWH's covenant with the children of Abraham is null and void; and contrary to popular belief, John the Baptist didn't invent the mikveh.
 
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HARK!

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Another passage that says the same thing is Ephesians 2:8-10. We are saved with God's free gift of grace through faith in verses 8 and 9, not by our good works; but in verse 10, the result is our good works which God enables us to do like his handiwork. Those verses are in the first half of Ephesians, which emphasizes the "already" of God's salvation and which is John's emphasis throughout his first letter.

But the last half of Ephesians has Paul's "not-yet" commands based on Ephesians 2:10 because we are not yet perfect in our daily living and need to be commanded to make spiritual progress toward the goal of resurrection perfection, which we will gain as God's gift when we are resurrected.

Always remember that the "already" and the "not yet" of the Good News are both true and are accomplished by Jesus with his death and resurrection (the first) and is being accomplished by the Holy Spirit in us as we listen to and read his Word and by Jesus' victory.

When Yahshua said "go and sin NO more;" what do you suppose that he meant?
 
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HARK!

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I would add also this:

...Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Hallelu Yah!

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is our calling.
 
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(CLV) 1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.

How many Pastors have you heard open up their sermons with this verse?


(CLV) 1Jn 2:2
And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:3
And in this we know that we know Him, if we should be keeping His precepts.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:5
Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are in Him:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.

We know two ways:

1. Jesus said:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

2. And, because this happens:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 
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HARK!

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We know two ways:

I know of one way, that John spelled out clearly.

1. Jesus said:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

This verse is about knowing, hearing, and following; but it does not specifically mention being "in" him; but John covered that too.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:6
Everyone who is remaining in Him is not sinning. Everyone who is sinning sees Him not, neither knows Him.

2. And, because this happens:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

These verses don't specifically mention being "in" him either.
 
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Gary K

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We have no better source of truth than Jesus as He is both fully God and fully man. That means He can reveal to us the truth of what God thinks and say in a very special way He told us that to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent is life eternal.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So, the question is what does it mean to know God and Jesus Christ? Does it mean we just profess to know them, or does it mean we know them because we have an experiential relationship with them? That's what it means to me. It means that we claim the promises of God found in the Bible as to what He promises to do within our lives, and trust God to the point that we know He will do what He promises. It's the personal knowledge of God that comes from personal Bible study and personal experience with the power of God to accomplish within us what He promises to do.

This is one reason the Sabbath is so important. It is a sign of our reliance upon God to change our hearts. He has to do that because it is impossible for us to do that. As David says we are born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Sin is within us right down to the level of our DNA. We have inherited it from our ancestors from Adam and Eve right on down throughout human history. Thus God is the only one who can remove sin from us. And Matthew told us that Jesus came to save us from our sins.

James tells us how to overcome the devil:
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

The question is, do we believe the word of God? Do we have faith that rests in the promises of God? Jesus, when He healed the two blind men asked them if they believed that He could give them their sight back. They answered yes. And Jesus touched their eyes and they could see. He told them that it would be done to them according to their faith. That is still true for us today. If you don't believe God can remove sin from us He can't do it for you because righteousness is, and always has been, by faith. It's not possible any other way.

Remember when Jesus healed the boy possessed of an evil spirit when He came down from the Mount of Transfiguration? He told the doubting father: If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. Jesus told the disciples that all things are possible with God. It seems to me that we must say what the father said: Lord I believe, help thou mine unbelief. Because it seems many of us do not believe the words of Jesus. I know I have struggled with doing that at different times in my life, but it is becoming very clear to me that without faith it is impossible to please God.
 
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Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian.

This means forever. Don't tell me that YHWH's covenant with the children of Abraham is null and void; and contrary to popular belief, John the Baptist didn't invent the mikveh.

a) You said in a previous post that what the Lord is really concerned with is circumcision of the heart.
b) the Gospel is not, never was and never will be "repent and be circumcised." Neither Jesus nor the early church said to Gentiles "now you have been saved you also have to be circumcised". Quite the opposite, in fact; there were people who taught that circumcision was necessary for salvation, and the apostles argued against them and called them false teachers, Acts of the Apostles 15:1-3, Acts of the Apostles 15:5-11, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:11-12.
When the crowds at Pentecost, the Philippian jailer and others said "what must we/I do to be saved?" the answer was never "be circumcised".
Jesus didn't teach circumcision at all.
 
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a) You said in a previous post that what the Lord is really concerned with is circumcision of the heart.

Right. The outward circumcision is just a sign of the covenant.


Genesis 17 (CLV)
11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you.

b) the Gospel is not, never was and never will be "repent and be circumcised."

Really? So repentance has nothing to do with obedience to YHWH?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Neither Jesus nor the early church said to Gentiles "now you have been saved you also have to be circumcised".

When we are saved we seek obedience to YHWH. Our peers don't have to pressure us.

Quite the opposite, in fact; there were people who taught that circumcision was necessary for salvation, and the apostles argued against them and called them false teachers,

Exactly the true teachers taught that we mist be circumcised to keep the law. The false teachers were putting the cart before the horse. They didn't even keep the law; but keeping the law doesn't save us. Rather, keeping the law is the result of being saved.

When the crowds at Pentecost, the Philippian jailer and others said "what must we/I do to be saved?" the answer was never "be circumcised".

The answer was believe in Yahshua; but if they don't believe in the Torah; why would they believe in Yahshua?

(CLV) Lk 16:31
Yet he said to him, `If Moses and the prophets they are not hearing, neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead.'"

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"



Jesus didn't teach circumcision at all.

Yahshua taught the Torah. Circumcision is Torah. He taught men who were already circumcised; because they believed YHWH's word. Yahshua didn't have to teach them the basics.

How do we know that we are in him? By keeping our Father's word
 
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