LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

Rescued One · Dec 2, 2020

He is the way said:
I too am anti-racism. Interracial marriage is no longer taboo. Times have changed, and the law has also changed.

We aren't under the law; we are under grace! Interracial marriage was only forbidden by man --- never by God. There is no verse in the Bible that ever condemned any race! Paganism yes --- race no!

We all bleed the same color!

Acts 17
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

He is the way said:
There is more proof that those people acted on their own. They even had secret meetings. It seems to me that Brigham Young got wind of what was happening and tried to stop it.

Punishment awaits the defenders of evil men and false prophets.

Rescued One · Dec 2, 2020

He is the way said:
Brigham Young did not kill anyone. God said that interbreeding was wrong. Apparently you believe that the Bible is not of God.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed [Mormons] mixes his blood with the seed of Cain [Negroes] the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
Brigham Young

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

He is the way · Dec 2, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
We aren't under the law; we are under grace! Interracial marriage was only forbidden by man --- never by God. There is no verse in the Bible that ever condemned any race! Paganism yes --- race no!

We all bleed the same color!

Acts 17
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Punishment awaits the defenders of evil men and false prophets.

These races were condemned:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:1 - 9)

1 WHEN the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

(New Testament | 1 Timothy 1:5 - 11)

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 18)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

BigDaddy4 · Dec 2, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed [Mormons] mixes his blood with the seed of Cain [Negroes] the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
Brigham Young

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Could you imagine what today's cancel culture would do to the Mormon church if they ever got wind of quotes like these from BY and other previous Mormon leaders? I imagine there would be calls for BYU to change its name at the least. How the Mormons can keep sustaining this guy as a legitimate prophet is beyond me.

BigDaddy4 · Dec 2, 2020

He is the way said:
These races were condemned:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:1 - 9)

1 WHEN the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

Do you even read the Scriptures you post? Do you know the difference between a race and a nation?

He is the way · Dec 2, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Do you even read the Scriptures you post? Do you know the difference between a race and a nation?

Yes I do and in Deuteronomy nations were considered races.

Biblical terminology for race has been used to classify human races, based on proposed Biblical lineage from the Table of Nations in Genesis 10, since antiquity.

From: Biblical terminology for race - Wikipedia

The list of 70 names introduces for the first time several well-known ethnonyms and toponyms important to biblical geography,[4] such as Noah's three sons Shem, Ham and Japheth, from which 18th century German scholars at the Göttingen School of History derived the race terminology Semites, Hamites and Japhetites. Certain of Noah's grandsons were also used for names of peoples: from Elam, Ashur, Aram, Cush, and Canaan were derived respectively the Elamites, Assyrians, Arameans, Cushites, and Canaanites. Likewise, from the sons of Canaan: Heth, Jebus, and Amorus were derived Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites. Further descendants of Noah include Eber – from Shem (from whom come the "Hebrews"); the hunter-king Nimrod – from Cush; and the Philistines – from Misrayim.

From: Generations of Noah - Wikipedia

BigDaddy4 · Dec 2, 2020

He is the way said:
Yes I do and in Deuteronomy nations were considered races.

Biblical terminology for race has been used to classify human races, based on proposed Biblical lineage from the Table of Nations in Genesis 10, since antiquity.

From: Biblical terminology for race - Wikipedia

The list of 70 names introduces for the first time several well-known ethnonyms and toponyms important to biblical geography,[4] such as Noah's three sons Shem, Ham and Japheth, from which 18th century German scholars at the Göttingen School of History derived the race terminology Semites, Hamites and Japhetites. Certain of Noah's grandsons were also used for names of peoples: from Elam, Ashur, Aram, Cush, and Canaan were derived respectively the Elamites, Assyrians, Arameans, Cushites, and Canaanites. Likewise, from the sons of Canaan: Heth, Jebus, and Amorus were derived Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites. Further descendants of Noah include Eber – from Shem (from whom come the "Hebrews"); the hunter-king Nimrod – from Cush; and the Philistines – from Misrayim.

From: Generations of Noah - Wikipedia

Race is generally a term used to distinguish physical characteristics (i.e., black vs. white, etc). What distinguishable physical characteristic differences are there between Semites, Hamites and Japhetites (or any other in your list above)?

Next, you'll have to actually answer the question Phoebe Ann was getting at - where in the Bible does God distinguish between races and condemning one over another? All you've provided is man making some kind of distinction, not God, based on ethnicity not race.

"For God so loved the world..." does not apply to one particular race, ethnicity, tribe, nation, or any other distinction. Why can't you admit BY was wrong?

He is the way · Dec 2, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
Race is generally a term used to distinguish physical characteristics (i.e., black vs. white, etc). What distinguishable physical characteristic differences are there between Semites, Hamites and Japhetites (or any other in your list above)?

Next, you'll have to actually answer the question Phoebe Ann was getting at - where in the Bible does God distinguish between races and condemning one over another? All you've provided is man making some kind of distinction, not God, based on ethnicity not race.

"For God so loved the world..." does not apply to one particular race, ethnicity, tribe, nation, or any other distinction. Why can't you admit BY was wrong?

The scriptures I posted clearly shows that God was opposed to anyone marrying a person from these nations (which I have proven to be races).

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:1 - 6)

1 WHEN the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Even Jesus was sent unto the people of Israel, not Canaan:

(New Testament | Matthew 15:22 - 26)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Jews do have distinguishing features. That being said there won't be race in the next life. Race does not make a difference to me. There are good and bad people in every nationality, race, or creed. Hopefully LOVE will overcome all.

BigDaddy4 · Dec 3, 2020

He is the way said:
The scriptures I posted clearly shows that God was opposed to anyone marrying a person from these nations (which I have proven to be races).

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 7:1 - 6)

1 WHEN the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Even Jesus was sent unto the people of Israel, not Canaan:

(New Testament | Matthew 15:22 - 26)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Jews do have distinguishing features. That being said there won't be race in the next life. Race does not make a difference to me. There are good and bad people in every nationality, race, or creed. Hopefully LOVE will overcome all.

You have proven nothing from the Bible because the Bible says no such thing about interracial marriages. Moses married an Ethiopian women. Aaron and Miriam tried to oppose them before God. God wasn't having any of that and punished Miriam for bringing it up. See Number 12.

God didn't want his people to marry pagans because of their culture and beliefs opposed God, not because of their race.

Trying to justify the racism of your [false] prophets is disgusting and pathetic. Do yourself a favor and just don't anymore.

He is the way · Dec 3, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
You have proven nothing from the Bible because the Bible says no such thing about interracial marriages. Moses married an Ethiopian women. Aaron and Miriam tried to oppose them before God. God wasn't having any of that and punished Miriam for bringing it up. See Number 12.

God didn't want his people to marry pagans because of their culture and beliefs opposed God, not because of their race.

Trying to justify the racism of your [false] prophets is disgusting and pathetic. Do yourself a favor and just don't anymore.

So everyone of those nationalities were pagans and would turn God's people away from God. Was Ethiopia mentioned there? Nope. Did Moses marry anyone from those nations? Nope. Had he done so he would have disobeyed God. However Solomon did disobey God (see 1 Kings 11). That was his downfall.

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

After leaving the LDS, many years later, I dared to read books against the Church. And thanks to the Internet and the diaries of the surviving children (17 in number), which were later returned by Mormons through ransom payments to their loved ones, I learned a lot about the massacre. Here is my summary:

1. Three weeks before the massacre, Brigham Young summoned Indian chiefs and asked them to invade the settlers. The Indians refused.
2. Nothing happened in the territory of Deseret without which Brigham Young commanded, or at least knew about it.
3. The Mormon militia was at the forefront of the massacre.
4. The loot of the massacre, with the exception of some cows that the Pajute Indians received, was auctioned in the Tenth Office of Cedar City, and the proceeds went to Brigham Young.
5. Brigham Young, threatening the death penalty, vowed to silence each of the participants, to cover up everything by accusing the Indians of the massacre alone.
6. An army officer investigating the crime came across a wall of silence.
7. The surviving children who later spoke about the massacre almost all of them unanimously stated that they were put before the judiciary, prevented from fleeing, and often hidden by their parents' murderers.

Until a few years ago, the LDS Church refused to admit its guilt over the massacre.
By the way, here are some "crimes" that punished Young and the Danites with death:

Sexual intercourse with a person of colour; Criticism of the Prophet and the Priesthood of Mormons; Steal another man's wife.

Castrations also existed, as this case proves:

In 1857, Bishop Warren Snow of Manti wanted to marry another young mans fiancé. When the young man refused the Bishop cut off his dick. Brigham approved. : exmormon

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
I believe that Lee did believe that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. I believe that is what he was told, but it was a lie.

The massacre was ordered by others who told Lee that Young had ordered it. Lee believed it because Young was his father. When Young was threatened with prison for the massacre, he sacrificed Lee for his own good. Here is an interesting video (with German subtitles):

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
Brigham Young did not kill anyone like Moses did

Wrong! Anyone who commits murder or creates the conditions for a murder is just as guilty as the murderer.
Does the "Law of Blood Atonement" tell you anything? Brigham Young preached it.
Here's some information:

Blood atonement - Wikipedia

Brigham Young was also involved in crimes such as counterfeiting:

Brigham Young counterfeiting? - Newspapers.com

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
Because of the letter Brigham Young sent to tell them to let them pass in peace. The letter arrived too late. There is NO evidence that Brigham Young ordered the massacre.

And what about the meeting between Brigham Young and the Indian Chiefs, where Young allowed the Indians to invade settlers on a certain route?

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
You have been told that the Journal of Discourses is not scripture yet you still quote it as if it was.

In the time of Brigham Young, everything Young and the Apostles said was considered the word of God that had to be obeyed as strictly as the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine, and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
The Bible was used by Mormons only if it strengthened their faith.

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.

Mormons, in particular, should remember when they once again falsify their own history, or make teachings disappear in secret.

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
Although there is no evidence that Brigham Young ordered or condoned the massacre, the involvement of various church officials in both the murders and concealing evidence in their aftermath is still questioned.

Oh boy, you really don't have a faint glimmer of what church historians (Mormons) and historians (non-Mormons) have found. Read the book about the massacre of Fawn Brodie (a niece of David O. McKay) or Ed Bagley. Your eyes will rise.
By the way, Brodie was excommunicated by the Church because of her book. Thus, the "only true church" deals with the truth: it is denied, and the Mormons who find out about it are excommunicated because they do not want to remain silent and cover up.

Rescued One · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
Yes I do and in Deuteronomy nations were considered races.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but id you think God is a racist, you habe a problem with your claim that you are innocent of that sin.

Biblical terminology for race has been used to classify human races, based on proposed Biblical lineage from the Table of Nations in Genesis 10, since antiquity.

From: Biblical terminology for race - Wikipedia

The list of 70 names introduces for the first time several well-known ethnonyms and toponyms important to biblical geography,[4] such as Noah's three sons Shem, Ham and Japheth, from which 18th century German scholars at the Göttingen School of History derived the race terminology Semites, Hamites and Japhetites. Certain of Noah's grandsons were also used for names of peoples: from Elam, Ashur, Aram, Cush, and Canaan were derived respectively the Elamites, Assyrians, Arameans, Cushites, and Canaanites. Likewise, from the sons of Canaan: Heth, Jebus, and Amorus were derived Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites. Further descendants of Noah include Eber – from Shem (from whom come the "Hebrews"); the hunter-king Nimrod – from Cush; and the Philistines – from Misrayim.

From: Generations of Noah - Wikipedia

Mormonism criticizes non-Mormon teachings that mention original sin. Yet they claim superiority over non-Mormons based on what?

Race is a manmade idea and the idea that one "race" is superior to another is of Satan.

Every human descended from Adam. Mormonism is very judgmental of non-Mormons. Mormonism, nevertheless, claims that Satan is the brother of Christ and all humans.

LDS: One needs Mormon baptism to become spiritually pure. One needs Mormon baptism to receive the gift of he Holy Ghost.

If a Mormon left the LDS church and requested that his name be removed, and doesn't repent of that serious sin, he would be excommunicated.

Alma 34
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

They've now changed their policy regarding excommunication. But the ex-communication of Sonja Johnson is interesting for those unfamiliar with her story:
Church Court Action Clarified

2 Corinthians 6
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

God brought me out.

LindaBerlin · Dec 4, 2020

He is the way said:
There is more proof that those people acted on their own. They even had secret meetings. It seems to me that Brigham Young got wind of what was happening and tried to stop it.

Some very simple questions for you:

1. Why did Brigham Young cover up the mormon seers and do everything to the Indians?

2. Why did nothing happen in the Mormon state of God, of which Brigham Young had not learned anything beforehand, or ordered anything, such as the murders of his police chief, a Danite, of non-Mormons and critical Mormons? Cases are well documented. If you want, I will send you the appropriate receipts.

3. Why did Brigham Young sacrifice his adopted son, John D. Lee, only when he himself was to be charged with the massacre?

4. Why did Brigham Young deny meeting the Indian chiefs a few weeks BEFORE THE MASSACRE?

Think of it, bro, and ask yourself, why your church cover-up all these things?

Rescued One · Dec 4, 2020

President Gordon B. Hinckley has said: “It should be recognized that this church is not a social club. This is the kingdom of God in the earth. It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Its purpose is to bring salvation and exaltation to both the living and the dead” (Ensign, May 1990, p. 97).

In 1991 Elder Howard W. Hunter said: “We represent and speak today for a worldwide church, the organized and established kingdom of God on earth” (Ensign, May 1991, p. 65).
What do we mean by the terms ‘kingdom of God’ and ‘kingdom of heaven’?

LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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