Grace and Works broken down

GDL

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So we can break down this passage into 10 points that show how faith, grace and works can be in harmony with one another in the Salvation process.

1- by grace we are saved

I like the work you've done here. I also like how you're working to harmonize concepts & how you've identified Salvation as a process. Nicely done!

Question for you and whoever else wants to chime in for discussion (although much has been discussed already): Should we be translating this point #1 as "by grace we are saved" or "by grace we have been saved" or does it matter - and why?

Some reasons for the question:

1. Since Salvation is a process, can we narrow down to some precision what Paul is talking about here re: Salvation?

2. It seems clear that Paul is saying here that our Salvation is by God's grace through faith, and not by our works, but in Phil2:12 Paul commands us to remain in obedience and work to accomplish our Salvation. How do we harmonize these 2 concepts re: our Salvation?

3. It would be nice to come to some conclusions about our works in relation to our Salvation and get past some of the battles on the topic, especially since this is such a battleground section of Scripture, and in this same document, a few chapters later in chapter 4, Paul is talking about unity in the adulthood of the Body of Christ.
Thanks for opening this thread!
 
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Dan1988

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Wow. Completely disagree. I don't know people like that at all.
God said that we all hate Him, before He regenerates us and causes us to love Him instead. So anyone who claims that they decided to surrender their life to God because they loved Him before they were converted is a liar, according to God.
 
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GDL

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God said that we all hate Him, before He regenerates us and causes us to love Him instead. So anyone who claims that they decided to surrender their life to God because they loved Him before they were converted is a liar, according to God.

If we hate Him and don't want to love Him > and He regenerates us against our will so we will love Him - is He not forcing us to love Him?

If obeying His commandments is to love Him (1John5:3) > and He commands us to believe in the name of His Son (1John3:23) - then is our belief also obedience to His commandment & thus love for Him - do we make the choice to turn from hate to love - are we forced to do so?

If people were commanded to repent and be converted (Acts3:19) from their ultimate act of hatred against Him, did they not have the ability to choose to obey or reject this command - did He regenerate them first so they could obey and turn from hatred to love - did He force them to love?

"liar" is a strong word especially when one says God backs the accusation.
 
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GDL

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Dang I wanted to be post 421 you beat me to it gdl

Have any interest in you & I taking this up & seeing if “Jesus is YHWH” or anyone else wants to assist?

I’ll start - slowly:

1. Translating “saved” in both Ep2:5 & 2:8:

a. The grammatical structure is what’s called a perfect paraphrastic. Rather than just a verb, it contains a verb coupled with a participle. It can be translated in 2 different ways:​

i. It can emphasize the current state based upon a past action or process – “you [all] are saved”​

ii. It can emphasize the completion of the past action or process – “you [all] have been saved”​

IMO whichever translation is chosen, it’s best to bring out the past action:

1. You [all] have been saved

2. Based upon what has taken place in the past, you [all] stand here today, saved

With that said, these 2 battleground verses re: salvation & works, are pointing mainly to something that’s gone on in the past for these believers whom Paul in 1:1 has called “holy ones” and “faithful ones in Christ Jesus.” He’s also said in 1:13 that they had heard and believed the word/message of the truth of our salvation and were sealed in Christ with/by the promised Holy Spirit.

These are just a few things Paul says on the way to 2:5 & 8.

Because Salvation is not only a process, but also both the plan and work of God, including the work Jesus did here on earth, and because Phil2:12-13 says we work to accomplish our Salvation while God is energizing (energeo) in us to both will and do for His good pleasure, I think there’s more work to do to determine exactly what facet(s) of Salvation Eph2:5 & 8 are speaking of.

That’s a start. So, to begin, I think the past action needs to be made clear in translating “saved” in 2:5 & 8.

Thus, I think Jesus is YHWH's opening point, list point #1, should have remained consistent with the translation he used (underlines are mine):

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So we can break down this passage into 10 points that show how faith, grace and works can be in harmony with one another in the Salvation process.

1- by grace we are saved
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Have any interest in you & I taking this up & seeing if “Jesus is YHWH” or anyone else wants to assist?

I’ll start - slowly:

1. Translating “saved” in both Ep2:5 & 2:8:

a. The grammatical structure is what’s called a perfect paraphrastic. Rather than just a verb, it contains a verb coupled with a participle. It can be translated in 2 different ways:​

i. It can emphasize the current state based upon a past action or process – “you [all] are saved”​

ii. It can emphasize the completion of the past action or process – “you [all] have been saved”​

IMO whichever translation is chosen, it’s best to bring out the past action:

1. You [all] have been saved

2. Based upon what has taken place in the past, you [all] stand here today, saved

With that said, these 2 battleground verses re: salvation & works, are pointing mainly to something that’s gone on in the past for these believers whom Paul in 1:1 has called “holy ones” and “faithful ones in Christ Jesus.” He’s also said in 1:13 that they had heard and believed the word/message of the truth of our salvation and were sealed in Christ with/by the promised Holy Spirit.

These are just a few things Paul says on the way to 2:5 & 8.

Because Salvation is not only a process, but also both the plan and work of God, including the work Jesus did here on earth, and because Phil2:12-13 says we work to accomplish our Salvation while God is energizing (energeo) in us to both will and do for His good pleasure, I think there’s more work to do to determine exactly what facet(s) of Salvation Eph2:5 & 8 are speaking of.

That’s a start. So, to begin, I think the past action needs to be made clear in translating “saved” in 2:5 & 8.

Thus, I think Jesus is YHWH's opening point, list point #1, should have remained consistent with the translation he used (underlines are mine):

I've never said otherwise and there is a past, present and future aspect to our salvation.


Past- Justification
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. cf Acts 15:11; Ephesians 2:5

Present- Sanctification
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. cf Acts 2:47; 2 Corinthians 2:15

Future- Glorification
Romans 5:9
having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

hope this helps!!!
 
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GDL

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I've never said otherwise and there is a past, present and future aspect to our salvation.


Past- Justification
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. cf Acts 15:11; Ephesians 2:5

Present- Sanctification
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. cf Acts 2:47; 2 Corinthians 2:15

Future- Glorification
Romans 5:9
having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

hope this helps!!!

I remembered to some degree that this was your understanding and belief and that we've had some good discussions about some things.

My point is simply about your translation in your list point #1. I think "are saved" (as you listed) vs. "have been saved" (per the Bible translation you used) leads to confusion about salvation & works.

As you say, hope this helps!!!

Any thoughts re: the translation and what facet(s) of salvation Paul is talking about in Eph2:5 & 8?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I remembered to some degree that this was your understanding and belief and that we've had some good discussions about some things.

My point is simply about your translation in your list point #1. I think "are saved" (as you listed) vs. "have been saved" (per the Bible translation you used) leads to confusion about salvation & works.

As you say, hope this helps!!!

Any thoughts re: the translation and what facet(s) of salvation Paul is talking about in Eph2:5 & 8?
We were saved and continue to be saved depending upon the AV vs RV . The point being made by Paul is that we are in a state of being saved by His grace. Salvation has a beginning point of our Justification, a being saved our Sanctification and a future as well in the Resurrection of fulfillment.

Paul uses the Perfect Participle sesōsmenoi in both 2:5 and 2:8. Perfect participles demonstrate that an action was completed in the past.

hope this helps !!!
 
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GDL

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We were saved and continue to be saved depending upon the AV vs RV . The point being made by Paul is that we are in a state of being saved by His grace. Salvation has a beginning point of our Justification, a being saved our Sanctification and a future as well in the Resurrection of fulfillment.

Paul uses the Perfect Participle sesōsmenoi in both 2:5 and 2:8. Perfect participles demonstrate that an action was completed in the past.

hope this helps !!!

1. I'm not looking at English translations any more than I usually do and have, but thanks for the AV vs RV input.

2. Actually Paul uses a bit more than the perfect participle, which I outlined in post #426. And the grammar can have a past or present emphasis. It can also be meaningful to bring out both, if the main emphasis is the current state/condition and it's important to show that the current is based upon something in the past.

3. You seem to be emphasizing both the current state and [sanctification] process ("The point being made by Paul is that we are in a state of being saved by His grace"), but you're also identifying the past action of the perfect tense ("Perfect participles demonstrate that an action was completed in the past.").

4. Since Paul is saying in these Eph verses that our Salvation is not by our works, and then he says in Phil2:12 that our work is involved in our Salvation, how do you harmonize these and how do you precisely explain Eph2:5 & 8 - what precisely is he talking about in these verses - 2:5 then 2:8: God's entire Salvation Plan & work of the Godhead; our Initial Salvation/Justification (also a Sanctification BTW) - "have been saved"; our Salvation/Sanctification - "being saved"; our future Salvation/Glorification - "will be saved"?

5. If we start with Eph2:5, how would you translate the perfect periphrastic construction of "este sesōsmenoi" there, and why - what precisely is Paul saying in context?
 
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mlepfitjw

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@GDL I believe everyone has been saved from their sins, just not everyone is saved to the kingdom of heaven due to no belief.

we as Christians realize or should realize how much more freedom we are given over the world as believers in acceptance of having faith in God.

unbelievers have been saved from their sin, they just have a difficult time understanding or forming a relationship with God which leaves them more attached to the world and it’s problems it can give especially the problems we have in our flesh where as believers are given help because of them trusting God where the flesh wanes off, and relationship is established,


That is what I believe.
 
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mlepfitjw

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I talked to a woman the other day who wishes she was dead. Yet she has a child, and had a soon to be husband. Yet she feels as though she is responsible for the death of her mother and her father passed away a year prior. She say she is struggling and when I mention about God.

she said she was baptized and saved and wants to believe but it’s hard because of the world and to much sadness in it.

mans for me sometimes when you get stonewalled like this it’s hard to try to console the person especially when they have their own family already... and they won’t have a conversation on the phone.

so sometimes just gotta let some people go and pray one day for their recovery— it’s a difficult thing to do to choose from trying to please the person just cause they may desire some attention.

Very complicated and I can’t do anything about it
 
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Dan1988

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If we hate Him and don't want to love Him > and He regenerates us against our will so we will love Him - is He not forcing us to love Him?

If obeying His commandments is to love Him (1John5:3) > and He commands us to believe in the name of His Son (1John3:23) - then is our belief also obedience to His commandment & thus love for Him - do we make the choice to turn from hate to love - are we forced to do so?

If people were commanded to repent and be converted (Acts3:19) from their ultimate act of hatred against Him, did they not have the ability to choose to obey or reject this command - did He regenerate them first so they could obey and turn from hatred to love - did He force them to love?

"liar" is a strong word especially when one says God backs the accusation.
God's Word tells us we are all enemies of God, before He saves us. It also tells us that we are all born dead in our sins ad trespasses, as such were in bondage to serve our sin nature because we love sin and hate God.
How can a dead person who hates God and His ways and loves his own evil lusts, suddenly change his whole nature and decide to love God and His ways and hate his own nature.
You obviously believe the man centered gospel, which teaches that man saves himself by using the tools which Jesus offered to save himself.
I believe God wasn't joking when He said that salvation is of the Lord and not of yourself, lest anyone boast.
You're welcome to add as many words to God's Word as you like, but He did warn against doing so. He never used the words "I will force you to believe in Me and love Me" that's a false doctrine od Demons.
Regenerated saved people love God, because He changes their nature and liberates them from bondage to sin and Satan. When He opens the eyes of a spiritually blind person, the person than understands who they are and what God did for them so they can't help but love Him for it.

So there's no force involved in salvation, we love Him when we realize that we deserve nothing but eternal condemnation and torment in hell fire but He instead gives us eternal life in paradise. What's not to love about that deal.
 
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GDL

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How can a dead person who hates God and His ways and loves his own evil lusts, suddenly change his whole nature and decide to love God and His ways and hate his own nature.

Ever brought to your knees or lying completely on the floor in despair over how your life was going in unbelief? Ever consider how and why you got there? Did you go through something that brought you to consider what you heard about God & Jesus Christ? How about we start with a change of mind before we go to a complete change of nature.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (Jn. 6:29 NKJ)

- God is working to get unbelievers to believe in Jesus Christ
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (Jn. 6:44-45 NKJ)

- God is drawing/dragging unbelievers to come to/believe in Jesus Christ by teaching them about Him

- Everyone who hears and learns from God the Father comes to Jesus Christ
Apparently spiritually dead people imprisoned under sin & death can still hear & learn about Jesus Christ and come to Him as a result. They could also see & consider miracles to cause them to consider Jesus being the Christ and then believe. The spiritually dead also know certain things about God through His creation - enough so that they are without excuse for rejecting Him and not being thankful to Him (Rom1).

When an unbeliever first believes that Jesus is the Christ, that new believer has just obeyed God's command to believe in the name of His Son (1J3:23) and by obeying God's command, has just loved God (1J5:3) by obeying Him.

I think you're making too much out of the spiritually dead condition and what God does with such people apart from theoretically making them alive so they can believe - assuming that's what you're thinking (long day so not reading your post carefully - sorry).
 
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Marc Perry

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1. I'm not looking at English translations any more than I usually do and have, but thanks for the AV vs RV input.

2. Actually Paul uses a bit more than the perfect participle, which I outlined in post #426. And the grammar can have a past or present emphasis. It can also be meaningful to bring out both, if the main emphasis is the current state/condition and it's important to show that the current is based upon something in the past.

3. You seem to be emphasizing both the current state and [sanctification] process ("The point being made by Paul is that we are in a state of being saved by His grace"), but you're also identifying the past action of the perfect tense ("Perfect participles demonstrate that an action was completed in the past.").

4. Since Paul is saying in these Eph verses that our Salvation is not by our works, and then he says in Phil2:12 that our work is involved in our Salvation, how do you harmonize these and how do you precisely explain Eph2:5 & 8 - what precisely is he talking about in these verses - 2:5 then 2:8: God's entire Salvation Plan & work of the Godhead; our Initial Salvation/Justification (also a Sanctification BTW) - "have been saved"; our Salvation/Sanctification - "being saved"; our future Salvation/Glorification - "will be saved"?

5. If we start with Eph2:5, how would you translate the perfect periphrastic construction of "este sesōsmenoi" there, and why - what precisely is Paul saying in context?

I'm stepping in here late, and I don't feel like reading the previous posts. What exactly is it you're saying?
 
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Marc Perry

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See post #1 > 421 > 426 to start. See if you can pick up the basics. We can go from there.

This topic gets more complicated when Jesus' parables are taken into account. In many of the parables, it seems that the people have been saved according to their works. I've always had a hard time reconciling that with Paul.
 
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GDL

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This topic gets more complicated when Jesus' parables are taken into account. In many of the parables, it seems that the people have been saved according to their works. I've always had a hard time reconciling that with Paul.

This is a very controversial topic, Marc. You're not alone seeing complexity or having a hard time with it. And then you start working through it and get hammered by opponents.

Look at this less lengthy thread beginning at post #88. "Bible Highlighter" and I ended up finding quite a bit of agreement in what we were working through on this salvation & works issue. You and anyone else would of course need to consider it for yourselves.

If salvation was by deeds | Page 5 | Christian Forums
 
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GDL

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@GDL I believe everyone has been saved from their sins, just not everyone is saved to the kingdom of heaven due to no belief.

we as Christians realize or should realize how much more freedom we are given over the world as believers in acceptance of having faith in God.

unbelievers have been saved from their sin, they just have a difficult time understanding or forming a relationship with God which leaves them more attached to the world and it’s problems it can give especially the problems we have in our flesh where as believers are given help because of them trusting God where the flesh wanes off, and relationship is established,


That is what I believe.

In one respect you're venturing into the discussion of limited vs. unlimited atonement.

Unbelievers are not saved from their sin until they truly come to believe in Jesus Christ - who He is and what He's done for us. And then there is a continuing process of coming more & more out of / being saved from our sins.

The "relationship" with God begins at the point of belief in His Son - which is also a real first step in obeying God. But it begins with us in an infancy, where we don't function much differently in some respects than we did as unbelievers.

From infancy He takes us through a process of growth and development to maturity - through educating, training & disciplining as He sees fit. Within this process, on the one hand, our understanding, faith, obedience, love for Him grows and, on the other hand, our sins thus lessen and we come more & more out of the world & it's thoughts and actions.

There's obviously more to this, but these are some basics.
 
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Guojing

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This topic gets more complicated when Jesus' parables are taken into account. In many of the parables, it seems that the people have been saved according to their works. I've always had a hard time reconciling that with Paul.

It will be easier when you finally realize the following:
  1. Jesus first coming was only for Israel (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8)
  2. Us gentiles were without Christ and without hope during the period of the 4 gospels (Ephesians 2:11-12)
  3. We were included in the salvation plan when Israel fell (Romans 11:11)
  4. God chose Paul to be our apostle (Romans 11:13), and our salvation doctrine is to be taken from Romans to Philemon.
 
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