Ezekiel's prophecy (and the different perspectives)

Spiritual Jew said:

How can someone spiritualize that which is already spiritual?

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

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All things are made by God. It is a single creation. Ask those who make the distinction between the written word of God and those who spiritualize God's Word.

If the church had the mind of Christ, there would be no theology period. It would be internal and no external writings of any kind.

DavidPT said:

In this particular case, and in a lot of cases, I'm simply using deductive reasoning. If the ones being surrounded at the time are meaning ones God is still hiding His face from, that does not add up to the saved to me, that adds up to the unsaved.

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Brother, Ezekiel 39:23-29 is just a reiteration of Ezekiel 36:17-38. Let's put the two passages under one another, so that you can see it more clearly:
Ezekiel 36:17-38
"Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings, even as the defilement of woman's impurity, their way was before Me.
So I poured My fury on them, because of the blood that they had shed on the land, and for their idols by which they defiled it.
And I scattered them among the nations, and they were scattered through the lands. I judged them according to their way and according to their doings.
And when they entered the nations where they went, they even profaned My holy name by saying to them, These are the people of the Jehovah, and they are gone out of His land.
But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
Therefore say to the house of Israel, So says the Lord Jehovah: I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all lands, and will gather you into your own land.

And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols.
And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.
And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. And you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
I will also save you from all your defilements, and I will call for the grain, and will increase it, and will lay no famine on you.
And I will multiply the fruits of the tree and the increase of the field, so that you shall never again receive the curse of famine among the nations.
And you shall remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall despise yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

I do not do this for your sake, says the Lord Jehovah, be it known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
So says the Lord Jehovah: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be built.
And the waste land shall be tilled, instead of being a ruin before all passing by.
And they shall say, This land that was wasted has become like the garden of Eden. And the wasted, deserted and ruined cities now are fortified and inhabited.
And the nations that are left all around you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places and plant that which was wasted. I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
So says the Lord Jehovah: I will yet for this be inquired by the house of Israel to act for them. I will increase them with men like a flock.
As a holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. And they shall know that I am the LORD."
Ezekiel 39:23-29 - it's a reiteration of the above passage in chapter 36:

According to their uncleanness and according to their sins I have done to them, and have hidden My face from them.
Therefore so says the Lord Jehovah: And I will return the captivity of Jacob, and will have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;
after they have borne their shame and all their sins by which they have sinned against Me, when they dwell securely in their land and no one terrifies;
when I have brought them again from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
then they shall know that I am the LORD their God who exiled them among the nations. But I have gathered them to their own land, and have not left any of them there.
Nor will I hide My face from them any more, for I have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel, says the Lord Jehovah."
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Ezekiel chapters 36-39 is a prophecy (one and the same prophecy). It's saying (firstly, in chapter 36) that the house of Israel (the Northern kingdom) had sinned when they were originally living in the land, and so they were exiled and scattered among the nations;

and it's saying that God will gather them back in, and there they will be blessed, and the language used is language which speaks of the New Covenant.

In chapter 37:15-28 we also read about the house of Israel and the house of Judah being united again into one nation when both are back in the land - and this is the first time they have been reunited into one nation since the split into two kingdoms following the reign of Solomon: Those two kingdoms were "the house of Israel" (the Northern kingdom with its 10 tribes) and "the house of Judah" (the Southern kingdom with its two tribes of Judah and Benjamin).

Ezekiel 36:17-38 is speaking to the house of Israel (not the house of Judah) and it's a prophecy that was uttered by Ezekiel a long time after the house of Israel had already been invaded by the Assyrian king, had become exiled and scattered among the nations.

The prophecy is moving from talking about the restoration of all Israel to God & to land (chapters 36 & 37), and on, to talking about Gog/Magog coming against them after they had been restored and blessed and were experiencing peace, safety & prosperity (chapters 38 & first half of chapter 39), and back again, concluding in chapter 39 with a reiteration (repeat) of the introduction in chapter 36.

God is not "hiding His face" from the people who are being attacked. He had hidden His face from them, then they had been restored, then Gog/Magog came against them.

Spiritual Jew said:

It might help if you actually read Acts 2.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

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Read itr several hundred times-- maybe my glasses are murky, so why don't you sho wme where Acts 2 shows that every person form the house of Israel (most of tehm were still scattered throughout many nations) and all Judiates were present when Peter spoke.

Remember it is God and not a man who said all! He did not say only those who could assemble or alot or most or any other word like that--He said ALL.

mkgal1 said:

Ezekiel 37:14 ~ I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land.
ISTM that, with the historical backdrop of exile and occupation that ancient Israelites experienced, "settle you in your own land" was referring to the freedom in Christ that was promised (and then fulfilled).

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so land doesn't mean land but means freedom in Jesus? Can you point me to the code book to help me decipher the fact you allege th e bible means something other than it says here.

mkgal1 said:

Going all the way back to where the Israelites had asked for a king like the other nations had - God had warned them that they had a superior King....even at that time (but God gave them over to their own desires and allowed them to live out the full conclusion of how it ends with inferior humans as king).

Finally, after God's incarnation in Jesus, was freedom and peace experienced:

Acts 9:31
Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced a time of peace. It grew in strength and numbers, living in the fear of the Lord and the encouragement of the Holy Spirit.

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Well the church is not the whole house of Israel and Judah and every Jew knowing teh Lord. Unless that is also in that code book you and SJ seem to have. Where can I get my copy so I can learn what God really means instead of what He inspired all these guys to write.

I do not disagree with the passages you wrote. The church had a time of tranquility form the wrath of the Jews and the Roman persecution had not yet started. But this short lived time of external tranquility from strife is not in any way shape or form a fulfilment of Ezekiel!

mkgal1 said:

Ezekiel 37:14 ~ I will put My Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land.
​

ISTM that, with the historical backdrop of exile and occupation that ancient Israelites experienced, "settle you in your own land" was referring to the freedom in Christ that was promised (and then fulfilled).

Going all the way back to where the Israelites had asked for a king like the other nations had - God had warned them that they had a superior King....even at that time (but God gave them over to their own desires and allowed them to live out the full conclusion of how it ends with inferior humans as king).

Finally, after God's incarnation in Jesus, was freedom and peace experienced:

Acts 9:31
Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced a time of peace. It grew in strength and numbers, living in the fear of the Lord and the encouragement of the Holy Spirit.​

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Excellent points here Mkgal.

I would add:

Ezekiel 39:25-29 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: 1.) Now I will restore Jacob from captivity and will have compassion on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for My holy name. They will forgetg their disgrace and all the treachery they committed against Me, when they dwell securely in their land, with no one to frighten them. When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them out of the lands of their enemies, I will show My holiness in them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, when I regather them to their own land, not leaving any of them behind after their exile among the nations. And I will no longer hide My face from them, 2.) for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.”

1.) According to Jeremiah, the restoration from captivity would occur when Babylon's 70 year exile was complete. Psalm 85 was written after Israel's return from Babylonian Exile. Thus Ezekiel 39:25, IMHO finds fulfillment in Israel returning from the Babylonian exile, as evidenced by other scriptures:

Jeremiah 29:10-14 For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”

Psalm 85:1 You showed favor to Your land, O LORD; You restored Jacob from captivity.

2.) The spirit was poured out on Israel at Pentecost, around 50 days after Jesus death and resurrection, IN JERUSALEM. The nation of Israel literally dwelt in Israel when the Spirit was poured out.

Acts 2:15-17 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

So what is the purpose of restoring Israel from captivity to the promised land after Babylonian Exile? IMHO, it ultimately was for Christ to fulfill scripture:

Luke 24:44 Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms

Example: Jesus fulfills scripture by going to Zebulun and Naphtali (land of Israel)

Matthew 4:13-15 And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali, so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:“The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles—

Example: the Spirit is poured out in Jerusalem, in accordance with Ezekiel 37 and Ezekiel 39, that Israel would be in the land when the spirit was poured out.

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven

And there are plenty more examples of Jesus fulfilling scripture ,in the promised land, in the Gospels.

ultimately, I believe this shadow/type of Israel being restored to the promised land following the Babylonian captivity points to its fulfillment in Christ, the reality/antitype. It is Christ who has set us free from sin.

Ephesians 4:7-8 Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. This is why it says:a “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Timtofly said:

All things are made by God. It is a single creation. Ask those who make the distinction between the written word of God and those who spiritualize God's Word.

If the church had the mind of Christ, there would be no theology period. It would be internal and no external writings of any kind.

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What does it mean to spiritualize God's word? Did you read the passage I showed you? Is God's word not already spiritual to begin with? How can someone spiritualize it?

nolidad said:

the church is not the whole house of Israel and Judah and every Jew knowing teh Lord. Unless that is also in that code book you and SJ seem to have. Where can I get my copy so I can learn what God really means instead of what He inspired all these guys to write.

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Why are you so carnal and literal in your thinking? Do you even attempt to use any spiritual discernment when you interpret scripture? Do you understand what Paul was saying when he said that they are not all Israel which are of Israel and that the children of the promise are counted for the seed (Romans 9:6-8)? You always have your eyes focused on the wrong Israel. God's people are the Jew and Gentile believers together as one in the church now, man! Please join us in the new covenant era.

Your hyper-literal method of interpreting Old Testament prophecies just doesn't work. I suppose you are one of those who will not acknowledge that the prophecy about Elijah in Malachi 4 was not fulfilled by John the Baptist even though Jesus said it was?

Spiritual Jew said:

Why are you so carnal and literal in your thinking? Do you even attempt to use any spiritual discernment when you interpret scripture? Do you understand what Paul was saying when he said that they are not all Israel which are of Israel and that the children of the promise are counted for the seed (Romans 9:6-8)? You always have your eyes focused on the wrong Israel. God's people are the Jew and Gentile believers together as one in the church now, man! Please join us in the new covenant era.

Your hyper-literal method of interpreting Old Testament prophecies just doesn't work. I suppose you are one of those who will not acknowledge that the prophecy about Elijah in Malachi 4 was not fulfilled by John the Baptist even though Jesus said it was?

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The dispensational mind denies and rejects spiritual discernment, and is thus incapable of it.

Several months ago, our friend made the following claim:

"Nearly all OT prophesies concern Israel, Jerusalem and its 12 tribes."

I responded:

"That must rank as one of the most risibly absurd claims ever appearing on this forum.

The number of prophecies about Messiah and His Life and Ministry at His First Coming far exceeds those about "Israel, Jerusalem and its 12 tribes". Messiah is seen throughout the entirety of the Old Testament. It is all about Him.

But the claim provides instructive insight into the nature of the thinking which characterizes, pervades, and epitomizes the apostate racialist modernist cult of dispensational futurism."

Unsurprisingly, I've been on his ignore list ever since.

But he does serve a useful educational purpose for those objectively monitoring these dialogues seeking Scriptural truth.

Thanks for your many contributions thereto.

nolidad said:

so land doesn't mean land but means freedom in Jesus? Can you point me to the code book to help me decipher the fact you allege th e bible means something other than it says here.

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Here is the problem with some trying to spiritualize some of the prophecies in the OT, such as your post addresses here.

The following is not rocket science, IMO.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

The reason we know this land is literal land is because the following is obviously literal land--- wherein your fathers have dwelt. How does it make good sense to apply that land in the literal sense, then turn right around and apply the land they shall dwell in, in a spiritual sense, or whaterever you want to call it that some of these are doing? Is not the land they shall dwell in, the exact same land their fathers have dwelt?

And I get accused of being inconsistent at times, but this is not an example of someone being inconsistent if they are applying the very same land in 2 different manners? Why don't some simply believe what the OT states and means, in a case like this? BTW, I'm not a Dispensationlist as far as I can tell, I'm just simply doing my best to not contradict what is written in these OT Scriptures, and agree with them instead.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

God is not "hiding His face" from the people who are being attacked. He had hidden His face from them, then they had been restored, then Gog/Magog came against them.

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I think where you are going wrong here, you seem to think that if Ezekiel 38 has Israel recorded as restored to their land, this also indicates they are already restored back to God then. But does that fully agree with the texts involved? Let's see.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Thus far it doesn't say any of these are restored to God. It simply says they have been restored to their land.

Ezekiel 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

Let's continue on in ch 39.

Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Does not verse 7 prove Israel is not fully restored to God at the time of the attack? Does not this verse say this---So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more? Why would He need to do all of that if Israel has already been restored to God at the time of the attack? This is yet another reason nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 can fit Revelation 20:7-9, because the ones being surrounded in Revelation 20:7-9 are obviously the saved if they are said to be of the camp of the saints. Ezekiel 38:8 is not referring to the camp of saints in Revelation 20:7-9, it is referring to the same ones Ezekiel 39:7 is referring to. It is referring to the ones God is still hiding His face from at the time of the attack.

How does it make sense to make His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel, if they are already fully restored to Him at the time? To me it makes better sense if He is still hiding His face from them at the time, thus why He sets out to make His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel. Clearly, the camp of saints meant in Revelation 20:7-9 are not anyone God is needing to make His holy name known in the midst of.

DavidPT said:

I think where you are going wrong here, you seem to think that if Ezekiel 38 has Israel recorded as restored to their land, this also indicates they are already restored back to God then. But does that fully agree with the texts involved? Let's see.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Thus far it doesn't say any of these are restored to God. It simply says they have been restored to their land.

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In Ezekiel 38:8 God is talking to Gog/Magog, not to Israel. From verse 1 to 22 of chapter 38 God is talking to Gog/Magog. The text is saying that Gog/Magog is going to come into the land (of the people who have been) brought back from the sword, i.e Gog/Magog is going to come against Israel "after many years" (after many years during which they had been living in the land in peace, safety & prosperity following the time they had been brought back from the sword and gathered out of many people).

The prophecy starts in chapter 36, not in chapter 38. Ignore the chapter divisions when you read Ezekiel chapters 36-39.

DavidPT said:

Let's continue on in ch 39.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Does not verse 7 prove Israel is not fully restored to God at the time of the attack?

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No, not at all. God is telling Gog/Magog that God will sanctify His name (yet again) through the destruction of Gog/Magog, and God is repeating what He said in chapters 36-39 - God had already made His holy name known -- by bringing the house of Israel back into their land, sprinkling clean water on them, giving them a hear of flesh in place of their heart of stone, putting His Spirit in them --, etc. Now He makes His name known also by destroying Gog/Magog.

Think of the thousand years of peace in Revelation 20 during which Satan is bound, which is brought to and end by -- by what? By Satan being released again and going out to deceive the nations again in the four corners of the earth - Gog & Magog - and these coming against the camp of the saints.

God's name has already been made known before the beginning of the thousand years.

In Ezekiel chapters 36-39, God's name has already been made known in the fact that He has brought them back into the land, sprinkled clean water on them, given them a heart of flesh in place of their heart of stone, put His Spirit in them, etc, AND the reunification of Israel and Judah has taken place, AND they are now living in peace.

Gog/Magog comes against them long afterward - "After many days you (Gog/Magog, NOT Israel) will be visited. In the latter years you shall come into the land (that has been) turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he [Israel] has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.)

DavidPT said:

This is yet another reason nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 can fit Revelation 20:7-9, because the ones being surrounded in Revelation 20:7-9 are obviously the saved if they are said to be of the camp of the saints. Ezekiel 38:8 is not referring to the camp of saints.

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This is where you are wrong. You are reading it wrong. This is what God is saying to Gog/Magog - and it is a long time after the people had been gathered back into the land that God is telling Gog/Magog that this is what he is going to do:

Ezekiel 38:8-12
"After many days you (Gog/Magog, NOT Israel) will be visited. In the latter years you (Gog/Magog) shall come into the land (that has been) turned back from the sword, gathered out of many peoples, on the mountains of Israel, which have always been waste. (But he [Israel] has been brought out of the peoples, and they shall dwell securely, all of them.)
And you (Gog/Magog) shall go up, coming like a storm. You shall be like a cloud to cover the land, you and all your bands, and many peoples with you.
So says the Lord Jehovah: And it shall be in that day that things shall come into your (Gog/Magog's) heart, and you shall devise an evil plan.
And you shall say, I (Gog/Magog) will go up to the land of open spaces. I will go to those at rest, who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls, and there are no bars nor gates to them,
in order to take a spoil, and to steal a prize; to turn your (Gog/Magog's) hand on the inhabited waste places, and on the people gathered out of the nations, who have gotten cattle and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

Ezekiel is prophesying about what is to come a long time after Israel had been gathered - just like it is in a literal one thousand years when Gog/Magog, having been deceived by Satan, comes against the camp of the saints. The PROBLEM for our understanding of scripture is, it means the dead bodies of Gog/Magog's armies are going to be buried at the start of the NHNE (and that's something I cannot explain) - but this does not detract for the fact that in the above verses God is talking to Gog/Magog about how he (Gog/Magog) is going to come against the people who had been "gathered out of the nations, and had gotten cattle and goods", who will be "dwelling in the land in peace & safety" when Gog/Magog comes against them.

So Ezekiel 38-39 most certainly can fit Revelation 20:7-9, because the ones being surrounded in Ezekiel 38:8 most certainly is referring to the saints who had been gathered out of the nations and are (at the time Gog/Magog attacks them) dwelling in unwalled villages.

ALSO, note that in chapter 36 and the first half of chapter 37 it states very clearly that when God gathers them out of the nations, He will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a hert of flesh, sprinkle them with clean water, and put His Spirit in them.

Such a scenario fits perfectly with Pre-mil, because it means there will be no unsaved people living in the land for that prolonged period of peace, safety & prosperity which Gog/Magog decides in his heart he is going to put an end to (but he does not succeed). Revelation 20 says Satan will be bound a thousand years and there will be resurrected saints reigning with Christ - but at the close of the thousand years, Satan will be released again to go out and deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog & Magog, and they will come against the camp of the saints.

DavidPT said:

How does it make sense to make His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel, if they are already fully restored to Him at the time?

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His holy name is made known in two things:
1. He brings the house of Israel back into the land of their fathers - because while they were scattered among the nations, God's named was profaned by the fact that the nations said, "These are the people of the LORD. yet they have gone out of His land." Look:

Ezekiel 36:20-23
"And when they entered the nations where they went, they (the heathen in the nations) even profaned My holy name by saying to them, These are the people of the Jehovah, and they are gone out of His land.
But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went."

-- God is saying that His holy name is being profaned by the heathen because Israel has gone out of His land, but He is blaming Israel for it --

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, So says the Lord Jehovah: I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes."

The rest of the chapter and right up until the end of chapter 37, God is talking about how He will bring them back into the land, sprinkle clean water on them, etc, and how Israel and Judah will be reunited into one nation under one king: (the son of) David.

So He sanctifies His holy name firstly in that way.

2. His name is sanctified again by the fact that He has destroyed Gog/Magog who came against the people after they had been brought back into the land and were living in peace and safety.

God is talking at first only to Israel in chapters 36-37, then He starts talking to both Gog/Magog and to Israel in chapters 38-39 and the chapter divisions are man-made.

In the final two chapters, God is talking to both parties, and He keeps repeating what He already said in chapters 36-37 about the fact that Gog/Magog will only come against the saints after they had been gathered into the land.

So when God says in Ezekiel 39:7 (for example) "And I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel. And I will not let them profane My holy name any more. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.",

this is because He is still talking to both Israel and Gog/Magog, and He is repeating what He said in chapters 36-37 about Israel and His holy name.

You will totally misinterpret the passage unless you bear in mind that Ezekiel chapters 36 through 39 is one long passage (and should actually be one long chapter), and that this is ONE prophecy is talking firstly about Israel and Judah being gathered back into the land, and secondly and also about how Gog/Magog is going to come against them (long after) after they had been regathered into the land,

and about how God is going to sanctify his holy name both by bringing them back into the land and cleansing them of their sin, and putting His Spirit in them etc, AND by the fact that He is going to destroy Gog/Magog when after a long time Gog/Magog sees all this, and sees how the saints have been dwelling in the land and have become prosperous, and decides he is going to attack and take a spoil.

God is saying (through the prophet Ezekiel) that the heathen will know that He is God when He has accomplished all this. This is what the prophecy is about - and it's one long passage, if you remove the man-made chapter divisions.

(Please understand that I have no problem whatsoever with chapter divisions in the Bible, but I have seen many times how the divisions are in the wrong place, and how people become confused because they don't realize that sometimes a new chapter begins in the midst of the narrative. In Ezekiel chapters 36-39 especially, the chapter divisions "interrupt" the narrative, and this is why you and others have become so confused).

IF the overall picture is kept in view and compared with Premil, then it ties in perfectly with Premil - BUT the details do not necessarily tie in with Premil, because of the birds etc being invited to eat the flesh of kings AND because of the time following the destruction of Gog/Magog that is been taken to bury all the bodies and to clean everything up.

It also does not make sense and does not tie in with Premil when compared to the Revelation regarding the GWT, LOF and NHNE. But it does not tie in with Amil either. Nor does Premil itself make sense when compared with passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13 and a few other passages besides. Nor does Amil make sense when compared with all the things I mentioned in that other thread, beginning with the fact that the saints in Revelation 20 are beheaded for a reason, and Revelation 20 gives us the reason, and the reason gives us the timing of their beheading - whether at the beginning of the thousand years or the end of it.

Nevertheless aside from (a) the clean-up process that follows the destruction of Gog/Magog as prophesied in Ezekiel, and (b) the fact that birds eating the flesh of kings etc is the same as the language used for the Lord's destruction of the beast at the end of this age in the Revelation, the overall picture of Ezekiel chapters 36-39 does tie in with Premil, IF Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 36-39 are taken literally.

PS: I still have NO conclusions on Ezekiel.

Spiritual Jew said:

What does it mean to spiritualize God's word? Did you read the passage I showed you? Is God's word not already spiritual to begin with? How can someone spiritualize it?

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No, God's Word is physical. I quoted that post. That is why I answered you the way I did. Any private interpretation is supposed to be from the Holy Spirit. Most are not. By claiming one's interpretation is the only correct one, they turn their own interpretation into God's Word.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

PS: [/B]I still have NO conclusions on Ezekiel.

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You have given me a lot to think about, and that I need to think on some of these things further before I try to attempt any reply to your post. In the meantime let me submit the following for consideration.

Ezekiel 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.


The land meant is currently desolate first. Currently, in this day and time we live in, this doesn't match reality, unless I'm missing something. The land is not desolate over there any more, yet at the same time, it doesn't appear to have become like the garden of Eden either, at least not yet anyway. With this in mind, let's look at the following.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

This verse says---thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.


This verse says---therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. The more I think about it, this verse does indicate that when he hid His face from them, this is meaning because they trespassed against Him, so because of that He then gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. I'm not entirely sure yet, but maybe I am wrong to conclude He is still hiding His face from them when they are attacked by Gog. And let's assume I am wrong to conclude He is still hiding His face when Gog attacks, the land still has to be desolate first, which doesn't seem to match it's current state, and then when it is no longer desolate, it is because it is being brought back from the sword. And then it becomes like the garden of Eden, which also doesn't appear to match this land's current state.

If some, not meaning you though, perhaps propose that it became like the garden of Eden after it was rebuilt, and that Christ dwelt there, how would it still be like the garden of Eden come 70 AD? If anyone proposes something like that, I don't see that working, not to mention, there was still animal sacrificing going on while Christ was dwelling there, and after He ascended. I don't see any of that being like the garden of Eden. And that brings us back right where I started. That the condition of the land is that it has to be desolate first, which doesn't appear to match it's current state, and that it has to be brought back from the sword before it becomes like the garden of Eden.