The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
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Changing your mind about prophecy
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The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
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They would have naturally been concerned that they missed being gathered to Christ if the day had already arrived. So, Paul had to set them straight about that and let them know that it wasn't even possible for that to have already occurred because other things had to happen first.
Paul did not say that the day of the Lord begins when there is a falling away and the man of sin are revealed. He said those things have to happen first before the day of the Lord occurs.
Remember, Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His coming and Paul and Peter both said that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10). That means it will come suddenly and unexpectedly. So, if it began immediately when the falling away occurred (how can anyone know when that occurs exactly, anyway?) and the man of sin is revealed then how would that be unexpected like a thief in the night? It wouldn't.
In 2 Thess 2:1, he equated the day of the Lord with the day of Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him. Peter and Paul's use of the phrase "day of the Lord" refers to the actual 24 hour day that Christ returns.
Show me anything in 2 Peter 3 or 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 which indicates that the day of the Lord is a period of time longer than a literal day. There is no indication of that at all. Instead, there is a description of Christ coming from heaven, believers being caught up and gathered to the Lord and then "sudden destruction" by fire being brought down upon the wicked on the entire earth from which "they shall not escape". The same thing is indicated in 2 Thess 1:7-10 as well.
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Hi SJ. You've made some good points. I'd like to share my interpretation on some of them. While it's true Jesus said no one knows the day or hour, he did not say no one could ever know. Daniel 7, 8, 9, and 12 give some pretty specific dates, particularly chapter 7 which talks about a final "week" (i.e. 7 year period) begun by an agreement of some kind which results in the rebuilding of the 3rd temple and then, in the middle of that week he reneges on his agreement and causes abominations.
Consider also, in the verse you cite, that Jesus said he himself did not know, and yet, he was the one who gave the Revelation to John; it seems pretty reasonable that after his death, resurrection, and ascension he became privy to new information and communicated that to his servants.
Not necessarily. I think this is a perspective issue, because Paul also says, just a few verses later, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief".
For some people it will be like a thief in the night, not because there won't be plenty of warning, but because they simply will not see the warning. They are blind to such things, whereas we who wait for his return are not in such darkness.
I think this is most dramatically illustrated in Jesus' comments regarding the days of Noah and Lot. He said they were eating and drinking, building and planting, buying and selling; all normal, everyday activities and then they were destroyed; they had become so caught up in the cares of the world that they stopped paying attention to what God wanted and he said the same thing would happen just before his return.
This is the context of his thief in the night comments. In Matthew 16:3 he even rebukes the pharisees for being able to discern weather patterns, but not the "signs of the times". Perhaps this was not a direct reference to prophecy; the context is that of the pharisees demanding a miracle, but the principle applies to any area of life; Jesus expects us to pay attention to what's happening and use that information to guide our decisions.
This is a good question. I don't suppose there is any clear line where you can say, now! How much falling away is a great falling away? But, I think, by getting the spirit of it, we can start to analyze circumstances around us. For example, America has, from its beginning been steeped in religious freedom and fervor for God; it is commonly understood to be a Christian country. And yet, the so-called Christianity in America today, as a whole, is very far from the teachings of Jesus.
I would suggest this is at least verrrry close to a great falling away, but probably there will be other events which will pervert the concepts of Christianity further. The main question is, falling away from what? Paul wasn't referring to rituals or traditions; he was talking about falling away from sincere, child-like obedience to the teachings of Jesus.
I think people tend to get a little too hung up on nutting out an exact number of minutes for these kinds of designations. Perhaps "day of the Lord" does mean a literal 24 hour period, but I think it's more likely referring to the day when Jesus returns and takes over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15); after that there would be no point in interpreting it as 24 hours because it would actually be forever. In that context it would make perfect sense for any event after this point to still be described as the day of the Lord, since every day would be the day of the Lord from that point on.
After the Great Tribulation (and just before the Wrath), the world will be in shambles; there will be destruction everywhere. They won't be saying peace and safety. I'd suggest that this reference to "sudden destruction" actually makes more sense for the first half of the final 7 years just before the start of the Great Tribulation.
The start of this final 7 years is marked with the rebuilding of the 3rd temple. For the first 3.5 years things seem to go pretty well for the world. The AC will most likely be seen by the Jews as some kind of savior for helping them rebuild their temple. The world will probably laud him with all kinds of praise and awards for bringing peace to the middle east. Daniel says he "causes craft to prosper" which sounds like a huge economic boom, probably incorporating a new economic system which we will recognize as the mark of the Beast. For a time, there will be a sense that the world has entered some kind of golden age, but for us, we will know that it's all fake and that a dramatic change is coming. Remember what Paul said about us not being in darkness? All the people saying "peace and safety" are like those surprised by the thief in the night when the AC reneges on his agreement, profanes the temple, shows his true, evil colors, and the disasters marked by the 7 Trumpets start.
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I do believe He implies that no one would ever know the day or hour until the day actually comes. Otherwise, how could it be said that He will come like a thief in the night? It will be unexpected.
I do not believe in a future 7 year tribulation period or a 3rd temple or any of that because I believe The Most Holy Anointed One, Jesus the Messiah, fulfilled the 70th week long ago when He confirmed the new covenant with His blood and took away the transgressions and sins of the world and brought reconciliation to God through His sacrifice.
There is no evidence for this. I'm not into speculation. I believe He still doesn't know and won't know until the day the Father determines for Him to return.
What that means is, even though we don't know the exact day or hour, we are expecting Him. So, it won't shock us when He comes since we are expecting Him to come. In the case of unbelievers, though, it will catch them by complete surprise because they are obviously not even expecting Him to come at all.
True, but that doesn't mean we will know the exact time that He comes. He said Himself that we can know when it's near, but not the exact day or hour.
Yes, and He also said that the flood destroyed them all and so it will be when the Son of Man comes. He will destroy all unbelievers when He comes, only this time by fire (2 Peter 3:3-13).
Sure. To me, the biggest sign to look for is the increase in wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith (Matt 24:10-13, 2 Thess 2:1-3) and I think there are signs of that happening in more recent times. Murder is legal (abortion). Homosexuality and other sexual deviance is now seen as normal. Materialism is rampant. inappropriate contentography, including child inappropriate contentography, is available at the click of a button. Evolution is being treated as fact instead of the nonsensical, weak theory that it is. And so on. How long will God put up with this wickedness? I don't know, but I tend to think not too much longer.
I agree. I think we're on the same page here, at least. But, we're far apart in our understanding of Daniel's prophecies, particularly the 70th week.
I'm simply talking about the things that will happen on the day Christ returns. The things mentioned in passages like 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13. Those will happen in one 24 hour day. There's no indication in those passages otherwise.
How can it be considered "sudden destruction" if it goes on for 3.5 years? I don't believe that makes sense. Also, it says "they shall not escape". What is your understanding of that? Have you ever compared 1 Thess 5:1-6 to 2 Peter 3:3-13? They clearly speak of the same day of the Lord, right? Peter indicated that the "sudden destruction" that Paul mentioned would be by way of fire coming down on the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12). No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". What basis is there for thinking this fire that will come down will come down over an extended period of time instead of on the very day Christ returns?
Where are you getting this idea of a 3rd temple from?
Where does scripture teach of a future Antichrist rebuilding a 3rd temple for the Jews?
I don't believe in this whole future 7-year tribulation period with an Antichrist rebuilding a temple scenario at all. I don't see it taught in scripture. I think it's sad when people don't recognize that Daniel 9:27 is talking about Jesus fulfilling the 70th week by confirming the new covenant and putting an end to the need for animal sacrifices and offerings at that time.
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so then why are you bothering trying ot teach me???? Why are you disobeying teh Scripture you allege to believe in? I don't need you to teach me, the Holy Spirit does, and He taught me what I believe!!! See I can play that juvenile game as well.
So now let us make some conclusions based on your declarations.
1. The office of Pastor teacher is no longer valid and Paul was wrong in Ephesians our when He said God gave teachers to the church.
2. Once again the actual written New Coenant:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
SEEING AS YOU REFUSE TO SHOW WHEN TH ETERMS OF THE NEW COVENANT WERE FULFILLED, BUT JUST DEMAND THEY WERE FULFILLED THEN THE FOLLOWING MUST BE TRUE AS WELL:
1. As far as I can tell from teh spiritual tap dance you do to avoid simply ansering the question I have repeatedly asked over three threads now:
2. As you have emphatically declared the New Covenant as spelled out in Jeremiah 31 has been fuflfilled by Jesus.
Then:
A) Those days were when Jesus was alive . So that after those days must be after He died and rose.
B) All Israelis have had god write His laws in their inward parts- GOD said HE WILL do that.
C) Every Israeli knows teh Lord for God sais they ALL SHALL know Him, form the least to the greatest.
I remember once you falsely accused me of believing that every single Jew that lived was saved.
Seeing as you refuse to give specific answers to my questions- One can only logically conclude based on the terms of the New Covenant that it is you , that since the death of Jesus every Jew knows the Lord (saved) and we don't have to bother to tell them anything spiritual for they know it all already.
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It's from Daniel 7:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
A week can be a 7 day period or a 7 year period. The context here makes it clear that it's referring to a 7 year period. The verse does not specifically mention a rebuilt temple, but sacrifices can only happen in the temple. In order for sacrifices to cease, there needs to be a temple in which they are happening.
For the flesh Jews, the temple is the epitome of their religion; they desperately want their temple back. They are not followers of Jesus and so have not moved on to Jesus' new way where the body of believers is the true temple.
I believe this prophecy is referring to two different people at the same time, but in two very different ways. It is obviously referring to Jesus as he is the messiah, but Jesus will not overspread abominations. It is the AntiChrist (or Beast) who will do that. This person, the Beast, will make an agreement for 7 years (i.e. 1 week) most likely with the Jews to rebuild their temple (and in return they'll support his rise to political dominance, along with the rest of the world). But in the middle of this 7 year period, he reneges on this agreement and performs some shocking act to blaspheme the temple.
On the other hand, Jesus makes an agreement for this final, 7 year period to build his temple, a spiritual gathering of his body, i.e. the 144k mentioned in Revelation 14. This concept of the physical vs the spiritual is a common theme all throughout Jesus' teachings and an Angel in the Revelation even has a shot at this newly rebuilt temple, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." The "great city" is Jerusalem, which is only important because it is where the temple is (or should be) located. The people's stubborn insistence on going back to a physical temple makes this once Holy City spiritually desolate.
Neither do I. Look carefully at what I said; the first 3.5 years will be a kind of fake peace. Then, in the "middle of the week" the AC will renege on his agreement and start his persecution of the saints, the 42 months, 1,260 days, etc. This second half of the 7 year period will be the Great Tribulation; 3.5 years only.
The 7th (and last) trumpet of this Great Tribulation is the return (and rapture) of Jesus for his followers.
I'm not saying Jesus didn't establish the NT, putting an end to sacrifices etc. I'm not saying the rebuilt temple is a good thing; I'm saying it's the opposite, it is an abomination precisely because of Jesus' sacrifice. Rebuilding the temple is a slap in the face of a God who already sacrificed himself for us, which is partly why I believe it will be in the interest of the AC to rebuild it. On the surface it will bring political clout to him; he will be seen as a brilliant peacemaker, but underneath I believe he will take some sadistic joy in knowing that the physical temple is an affront to Jesus' sacrifice.
The 70 weeks were meant for Daniel's people (i.e. the Children of Israel) and started at the commencement of the rebuilding of the 2nd temple. 69 of those "weeks" (or 463 years) later culminated in the death of Jesus. There should have been one, final, 7 year period after that, but as Jesus was "cut off", so too were God's people as a visible, united organization. As your screen name suggests, the flesh Jews were finished as God's people. The veil was torn, making the physical temple irrelevant; God now lives in the body of believers as his temple.
That final, 7 year period was put on hold. This does not invalidate Jesus' sacrifice at all; it's just an issue of timing. No group or organization on the earth can claim to be the Kingdom of Heaven, but, a time is coming when Jesus will unite 144k of his faithful followers into 12 tribes for one, final week (7 year period) in which they really will be the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, as a witness to the world during the Great Tribulation (which will be the second half of this 7 year period).
The onset of this destruction will be sudden. It will be sudden because they're not paying attention. It does not make sense for the world to say, "peace and safety" after its just been ravished by 3.5 years of Great Tribulation, "such as the world has never seen". This period of time must be immediately before the Great Tribulation.
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8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The him in verse 9 is a relative and not definite pronoun. it is genitive, singular, masculine. If it was a definite pronoun then the standard rule applies and it must refer back to its nearest antecedant. Because it is relative, it is defined by the sentence or phrase it is part of. Ergo, we must look for one whose coming is after Satan and wicked. That is why this pronoun can skip can skip its first antecedant, because it does match teh description of who the pronoun is!
Simple example: Jon the Blonde and Bob the Brunette played on a football team. His light hair made him stand out above the others. this follows the same rule though it is a definite pronoun. If light was not included to describe him, then Bob would be referred to. but because light (and working of Satan) describes the identity of the pronoun, it has to go back to the antecedant that matches that descritpion.
don't just take my word for it- go search rules of grammar for yourself. I have no reason to lie to you or seek to deceive.
You can believe any hypothesis you feel. Doesn't make it true however. And if you don't take the time to verify what I have shown you, it is you that suffers, not me.
I have and you still have not shown me WHEN these events occurred as written and spoken by god:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Are you telling me that the houses of Israel and Judah (all Israelites) have Gods laws written in their hearts? God said He will do it so are you saying He has done it ? He said HE WILL do it after those days! So I am assuming based on you rmany posts after those days mean after Jesus rose to heaven.
Are you also telling me that every Israeli alive now knows the Lord? god says ALL SHALL know Him?
Are you telling me that God has forgiven and forgotten every Israelis sin? God says HE will forgive them all from the least to the greatest.
So since Jesus ascended do you believe every Israeli is saved and needs no teaching at all for they all know the Lord?
Is this a different new Covenant God made with people? I know God made a covenant with teh people of Israel called the Old covenant. they broke that covenant and so God in Jeremiah 31 says He is (not might) going ot make a new covenant with teh house of Judah and house of Israel) no gentiles mentioned here. so if your new covenant is not the Jeremiah covenant which new covenant is it?
Not semantics, but how words are defined!
Teh new covenant will be fulfilled or completed when the terms God set forth in Jeremiah 31:31-34 come to pass!
Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Why do you have such a hard time understanding such simple and unambiuous language?
This is presumptuousness on your part. we have not been talking avbout soteriology in general but teh new covenant in specific.
And as I have repeatedly told you I agree! though for salvation and entrance and blessing in the one new man shows no preference, the same writer (Paul) and the same inspirer (God) Also showed many many many times that there is still a difference between Jew and Gentile.
And I have repeatedly told you there is only one plan of salvation until eternity begins! Trust in Christ.
But because of your allegorical re-interpretation of the term Jew in the NT. to mean any believer, you make the NT a bowl of mush in many places.
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
This defines teh term "Israel of God and "a Jew is not a Jew outwardly but inwardly" romans 2 is not about identity but spiritual identity.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Paul here is writing to non _Jews who are believers. He does not recognize them as some new "spiritual Israel".
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Casting away of jews??? Teh new Israel which are believers?????? Why not?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Paul clearly lets us know that salvation is the same for Jew and Gentile- there is still some kind of difference. Itr is not defined here, but all in the OT.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Can you see that the Jews though still in need of trusting Christ are beloved for the Fathers sake???
and that the nation as a nation (ethnos) is enemies for now. Just until the fullness of the gentiles enter.
Eph. 2:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
This is important to understand. Paul is speaking to GENTIE believers in this letter. What He is saying is that because of Jesus gentiles are now fellowcitizens with the set apart ones (saints) and the household of God. Now as Epheisans being written to are already part of teh church, who is Paul speaking of as saints and household of God? Going back to the context, it is only Israel.
Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
See? We gentiles are partakers of the blessings that belong to Israel, we are grafted into that place of blessing! but at one point in the future, god will save the nation of Israel that is existing on earth as I have shown multiple times.
Once again:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
This new covenant as declared here in Jeremiah and also in Hebrews:
Hebrews 8:6-13
King James Version
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
You need to remembee that teh writer is writng to Jews and not gentiles! Almost the entire of Hebrews is an apologetic for the supremacy of Jesus over the Old Testament sacrifices.
The church, ( amystery hid on the old and revealed in the new) is partaker of the blessings of he covenant, but the church has not negated the promise to the Jewish nation as a nation.
Remember this passage is still very very very true:
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
As far as God dealing with the nation and people of Israel? The church age is an interlude for the calling out of the gentiles a people for the name of Jesus! And when teh full number of gentiles is brought in-God will save the nation of Israelis as promised in Ez. 20 and Zech 13.
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Timtofly
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How about Satan declaring the Atonement null and void? Can Satan convince reprobate humanity there was no such thing as Jesus' death on the Cross? How many theological views deny God provided Himself as the Only Sacrifice for mankind?
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Sorry, but would you mind clarifying how you think this relates to what I was saying?
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Douggg
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They were concerned about having missed the rapture.
And that the Day of the Lord had started. The beginning of the Day of the Lord is something negative because it contains the wrath, that the rapture assures Christians to escape that time.
You don't understand.
In 1Thessalonians5, Paul said the world will be saying peace and safety - when the Day of the Lord suddenly begins like a thief in the night, destroying that illusion.
Why will be the world be saying peace and safety? Because of some peace treaty involving the Jews?
No. Because the whole world will be convinced that it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety because it will appear that the Antichrist is the real messiah (and not Jesus), and has been anointed the King of Israel, and that he is making the world a peaceful place as he plays the part. He is in that position for three years, thereabouts, right before he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.
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That's Daniel 9:27.
Right. Did you think I didn't know that?
I agree that there needs to be a temple for sacrifices to cease because that's where the sacrifices were performed. But, it's not speaking of a rebuilt temple. Which temple was standing when the Messiah was cut off? The second temple. And it was that temple standing at the time that Jesus declared to be desolate even before His death.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Do you understand that when Jesus made His once for all sacrifice, there was no purpose for animal sacrifices any longer? That means Jesus made the animal sacrifices and offerings cease to have any purpose or meaning at that point.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
When it says "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate", it means that Jesus made the temple desolate by His once for all sacrifice when the veil of the temple was torn in two and "the consummation, and that determined" being poured out upon the desolate" had to do with the eventual literal destruction of the temple buildings that occurred in 70 AD.
So what? Any rebuilt temple would be meaningless. Any sacrifices performed there would be meaningless. So, how can Daniel 9:27 be referring to a temple where if the sacrifices and offerings were ceased, it wouldn't even matter because they wouldn't have any meaning, anyway?
Because of Jesus declaring the temple to be desolate, it was already determined then that the temple was going to be destroyed. The abominations that occurred related to the Jews not accepting His sacrifice and choosing to continue with their own religion instead. It was for that reason that Jesus declared their temple to be desolate.
No. Daniel 9:27 is all about Jesus and has nothing whatsoever to do with an Antichrist.
I could not disagree more with this scenario. There is no reference to a rebuilt temple in the prophecy and or to an agreement. It's a covenant. What is written there should immediately make someone think of the new covenant established by Christ's blood which put an end to animal sacrifices and offerings, but instead you think the verse is talking about an Antichrist/beast person.
You say the beast is a person? What do you make of this then:
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
How could John say "the beast that thous sawest was" if it was a person? That person would be over 2,000 years old by now. And how can a person be in the bottomless pit (abyss) when that is a place for spirit beings which have as their king the angel of the bottomless pit, Abaddon (Rev 9)?
Where does it say that "Jesus makes an agreement for this final, 7 year period to build his temple, a spiritual gathering of his body, i.e. the 144k mentioned in Revelation 14"? Hasn't Jesus been building His temple for a long time already?
I don't take any of those time periods to be literal. The number 7 in prophetic scripture is a number representing completeness. So, a reference to 42 months, 1260 days is referring not to all time, but a certain period of time in history, which is the New Testament time period, in my opinion.
If you look at Revelation 11, it talks about the two witnesses prophesying for 1,260 days. The two witnesses are clearly symbolic and are not individuals (figuratively described as two lampstands/candlesticks and two olive trees). I believe that is symbolic for the witness of the church during this New Testament era. The witness of the church obviously has gone on for more than 1,260 days. It would seem that they are called two olive trees to bring in mind what Paul talked about in Romans 11, which is that the branches of the wild olive tree (Gentile believers) have been grafted into the natural, good olive tree with Israelite believers. Jesus brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one in the church (Eph 1:11-22, Gal 3:26-29, etc.).
I agree.
Knowing that a rebuilt temple would be a counterfeit to the true temple of God and knowing that God couldn't care less about any sacrifices and offerings made at a rebulit temple, what would be the point of an Antichrist putting an end to sacrifices and offerings there? It wouldn't be an abomination to God for him to put an end to sacrifices and offerings, so what would be the point of that?
It says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, so it is not right to conclude that He was cut off at the end of the 69th week. No, He was cut off in the middle of the 70th week.
No, it was not. And there is nothing in the prophecy itself that even remotely hints at such a thing. There is no basis whatsoever for inserting a huge gap into the prophecy. None. There is no basis for not seeing the 70 weeks as being consecutive. The first 69 weeks were consecutive but then a thousands of years gap until the 70th week? I'm sorry, but I believe that is complete nonsense.
Yes, I believe it does. It suggests that when He said "It is finished" that it wasn't actually finished. That is an insult to the sacrifice He made long ago.
What do you mean? Are we in the church not in the kingdom of heaven?
Where does scripture teach this?
That applied to what happened in 70 AD when Jerusalem and the temple buildings were destroyed. You do understand that one of the questions Jesus was asked was when the temple buildings would be destroyed, right? He told the disciples that the temple buildings they were marveling at would be destroyed with no stone left upon another and that is what happened in 70 AD.
How can it be before a great tribulaton? Have you never read 2 Peter 3:10-13? That also talks about destruction happening on the day of the Lord. It's God's final wrath. When you read that passage does it look like anyone would survive it? The "sudden destruction" Paul talked about that happens on the day of the Lord will be fire upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:5-7,10-12) from which the wicked "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:3).
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Show me anywhere within 2 Peter 3:3-13 or 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 which teaches that the day of the Lord that Peter and Paul were talking about would be a period of time lasting longer than a literal day.
In 2 Thess 2:1-3, Paul equates the day of the Lord with Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him. It's not just referring to God's wrath on that day, but also our being gathered to Him. You are missing the obvious here. In 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10, Paul made it clear that both our gathering to Him and God's wrath would come down on the same day when Christ returns. It couldn't be more obvious.
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Would you not agree that the day "He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" is the day of the rapture? Of course it is. What else happens on that day? Jesus will take vengeance on His enemies. Just like Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6. To separate 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Thess 5:1-6 into two events just does not work and it contradicts a great deal of scripture, including 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Thess 2:1-3.
What is this stuff about the day of the Lord suddenly beginning as if it would go on for years? Paul said nothing about it being a time period that begins with sudden destruction and then goes on for 3.5 or 7 years or whatever you believe.
The destruction, according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-13, will be the burning up of the heavens and the entire earth. How can you see a time period of several years following that? How long would it take Him to burn up the earth? Certainly not years. Probably seconds or less if He wanted. Nothing you're saying lines up at all with what Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 or with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13 or with anything Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse.
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Douggg
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Revelation 17:8a is the original garden of eden serpent - has been in the bottomless pit since that time.
Revelation 17:8b is the end times person who will be killed, his soul in hell for a few days; and then the person is brought back to life, his soul returns to his body. As his soul leaves hell, the spirit of the serpent ascends out of the bottomless pit and possesses his soul. The person sits up in his casket, back alive, but possessed. The world will be dumbfounded.
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Douggg
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This present heaven and earth is destroyed during the Day of the Lord. In Revelation 20:11, after the thousand year expire v7, this present earth and heaven will be destroyed.
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You understand that was Satan, don't you? So, you believe Satan has been in the bottomless pit since that time?
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So, I guess, in a way, that you agree with amils like myself that Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. At least there's one thing we can agree on.
This is sensationalistic nonsense. Only God can raise the dead. How do you come up with this stuff?
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Please show me within 2 Peter 3:3-13 where Peter says that the fire that comes down will come down a thousand years or a long time after the coming of Christ? And please tell me how the last days scoffers who scoff at His coming (2 Peter 3:3-4) will somehow avoid being killed when the earth is burned up. You don't seem to understand that the burning up of the earth is the Lord's final wrath that comes down to destroy those scoffers and the rest of His enemies.
Are you willing to go verse by verse with me through 2 Peter 3 so that I can see exactly how you interpret it all the way through? We can just start with verses 3-7. Please tell me how you interpret those verses.
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
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Your answers are found below plainly written in the Word of God.
However, you have made the choice to ignore it in order to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
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Douggg
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You have it backwards, what it is telling you in Revelation 12:9. It is telling you the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the garden of eden serpent. It is not Satan himself in the bottomless pit, but the most cunning of the all the beasts.
God is the One who does bring the person back to life, in Isaiah 14:18-20.
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