Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

Major1 said:

There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

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We can understand from scripture that outright clear proof of God in front of non-believers would be incompatible with scripture, where we learn God wants faith from us (not seeing and then believing after seeing, but believing before seeing). Such as the very strong instruction to Thomas to "stop doubting and believe" and that "blessed are those that have not seen and have believed". And we know that after a person does have faith, God is willing to answer prayers in ways that at times most would call miracles, and some here have personally experienced seemingly impossible things in response to prayers. Even though we all are aware of false versions out there through time of pretending gifts of the spirit, that such have happened plenty, nevertheless we aren't told everything about just what the limits of what will be done now are. Though as you pointed out we do know that special signs were indeed done through the apostles, the evangelizing witnesses at the beginning to help spread the gospel, that we most would guess were special signs for only that time alone. We do know that in the last days there will be dreams and visions (these are of course from the Spirit). We know that we cannot determine ahead of time limits on when and what Holy Spirit will do -- biblehub.com/john/3-8.htm. And we learn from Him how prayers will be answered, and under what conditions, such as in Mark chapter 11 and other conditions. Christ even tells us in Matthew chapter 7 how to recognize future false prophets and know whether someone is really His. I'd not say that no one can be healed in a dramatic way, as I've already experienced dramatic healing. But I don't expect such to be visible to (done in front of) those not willing to already believe in Him (before seeing), because faith (believing before seeing) is required of us. So, I don't expect a miracle to happen visibly in a church in front of a mixed crowd of both believer and non believers. But....I'd not go further and then say I know just what the Spirit will do even in that way in the future, as if I could set any limit. Instead, we need to rely on scripture (such as in Matthew chapter 7, and such as the epistle of 1rst John) to distinguish, if something is claimed to us.

Major1 said:

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

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This is incorrect grammatically.

You are correct is that a personal pronoun must go back to its nearest antecedent that matches in gender and number,

Mark 16:14-18
King James Version

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


In reality, the nearest antecedant is creature or ktisis. Ktisis can also ber used to imply every institution. this would match the command in Matt. 28 where it is written as all nations or institutions of people (tribes, ethnicities etc.)

It is also verified by the fact that the apostles are told to go preach and them that believe are called He and ktisis. So it is the tribes of the earth that will have the signs.

I do believe the gifts are still in effect today. I have experienced miracles first hand!

I also know that some of the gifts (tongues and interpretations) are the most misunderstood and most abused gifts today.

Major1 said:

I am going to stay with my original post because of the sources I used.

You said..........
"Ktisis can also ber used to imply every institution. "

IMO you are "reaching" for something that is not there in order to believe what you want to believe.

The THEM in Mark 16:14 are the ELEVEN and is NOT an institution but are "Masculine pronouns" and refer to a person not an "Institution".

Did you know that EVERYONE who wants to speak in tongues and experience the Sign Gifts says......."I have experienced miracles first hand!".

Why does that statement then verify a doctrine which the Bible says ENDED????

You see, everything goes back to........
"I want to believe what I want to regardless what the Bible actually says".

Then those individuals attempt to explain away the meaning of a word to then allow their WANTS to be acceptable.

YOU my dear friend are not arguing with me but with the Word of God. If that is acceptable to YOU then have at it.

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You are free to hold your position, but you are not free to rewrite rules of grammar.

The pronouns do not appear in the original but are added in the translations. but you should know that the article ho (the) is in noun form which is why they pronouns are added.

You are free to have any opinion you wish, but scholars disagree with you!

Paul worked miracles and he was not of the eleven. That alone destroys the theory tht only the apotles had the charisms.

And the "those" article is in the dative masculine plural which makes it the nearest antecedant.

ktisis is used as "institution" meaning peoples. Because it is indefinite a more indefinite noun is used.
Matt. 28 is the corresponindg passage that equals this and that is more easily understood by we 2000 years removed from the language.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew in his gospel writes "nations" (ethnos) while Mark in his gospel writes ktisis(institutions) which are equivalent, unless you are saying there were two different commands of going to preach. One to people, and one to creatures. Have you shared the gospel with mosquitoes lately???

Wow is there a school many of you go to to insult and make ad-hominem attacks to those who disagree with you?

No I am not arguing with the Word of God. I am disagreeing with your hermeneutical prowess.

And no I am not believing what I want to believe. I have been in churches who believe in cessationsim for decades and have for most of that time disagreed.

Why is it that so many of you , when someone disagrees with you, instead of holding a civil and brotherly debate, go right to the "I am twisting the Scriptures so I can make it say what I want it to" ad-hominem. and the ever present implied " I am right, you are wrong and if you dare disagree with what I have to say, you are disagreeing with the Words of God and therefore God HImself"

throwing out these billows of verbal methane are easy to do. I can do them as well. But taking the time to defend your position biblically takes time and a willing heart to prove your position is the superior position to hold.

I know you hold bad positions because you wish to focus on the pronouns which appear in the English and are only implied in the greek. And I showed you why it is the believers of the the preaching of the eleven have the signs.

But let us look again:

Mark 16:14-18
King James Version

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1. I assume you believe god authored grammar and the rules thereof so we can understand what people say and write.

2. verse 14 is a commentary phrase and the word risen ends that thought.

3. verse 15 starts a new thought in the passage. Jesus issuing a command.

4. verse 16 shows the two consequences of their preaching to every (Ktisis) creature.

5. verses 17&18 are things that will be demonstrated by those that believe and are baptized because the apostles preached the word to every creature (ktisis)

Don't believe me. go to any school and ask any English teacher if my parsing is correct or not.
Go to a greek scholar if you like and see i f my parsing is correct or not.

Or if you think so assured that I am wrong- show why! But just hurling those ad-hominems at me normally is a sign of one who cannto defend their position in light of further information.

Major1 said:

you said........
"however, that there are more possibilities in miracles other than eternal security."

Name one!

I do not mean to be disrespectful to you or anyone else, but what you are saying tells me that you have listened to false teachers MORE than you have actually read and studied the Scriptures.

But what about physical health and wealth? Does God promise those to Christians?

The New Testament promises that in this life Christians will experience tribulation (Acts 14:22), suffering (Rom. 8:17), and even persecution (2 Tim. 3:12). But nowhere does God promise to make Christians rich and healthy. No where in the Bible is a "Miracle" promised to you or to me.

Any teaching that claims that Jesus’ saving work includes giving us health and wealth in this life is a satanic deception.

Note carefully that the New Testament doesn’t promise us physical health or prosperity in this life. When God raises us from the dead, Christians will be given glorified bodies and will dwell in perfect fellowship with God in the new earth. At that time God himself will “wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4).

In the meantime, however, Christians are called to endure “slight, momentary affliction” that is “preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison” (2 Cor. 4:17). Here and now we are called to “count it all joy” whenever we face various trials (Jas. 1:2). We can endure the trials and sufferings of this life—which Jesus himself promises will come (John 16:33)–because we know that if we suffer with him, we will also be glorified with him (Rom. 8:18).

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Then... Why is it written...
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. - James 5:14-15
???

zoidar said:

Maybe this still doesn't prove "continuationism" (I got convinced though, it's like I know within my heart). It could have been an isolated event, but I believe it wasn't, but can't tell with 100% certainty.

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It doesn't. And that's not a sneer. However, we have to be accurate with the meaning of both terms-- Continuationist and Cessationist.

Major1 said:

What makes you sure that anyone has cast out a demon from anyone????

Did you know that nowhere in the Bible are we as Christians told to go and cast out demons????? You did know that........right?

Some misapply that teaching to include binding Satan. There is no scriptural command to bind Satan, nor is there any biblical example of the practice. Satan remains at large as the "prince of the power of the air" until he is chained or bound by an angel, not a human being during the millennial reign of Christ.

Did you see such an event. I expect that you will say YES. However is that factual????

I love you brother and do not intend to harm you any any way but IS what you say you saw more beneficial and believable than the Written Word of God????

Is that what someone told you? Is it what you heard someone say in a testimony????

Do you think that a believer would lie to make a story sound really "spiritual"??????

Again and when I say this......you will understand what I mean........
Everyone who wants what they say to be accepted always say these words............
"I HAVE WITNESSED ALL OF THIS MYSELF".

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT MY BROTHER......REALLY???

Does YOU saying it make it believable ???

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I'm not lying or i need to... thanks for accusing me i guess for nothing... i'm not out of my mind either to say false things, and yes i have cast out evil spirits from myself, that i had from when i was not a believer, and this is so needed more than in the times of the bible. And i saw the difference, i was suffering from x, now not anymore after the spirit went away...

Yes witnessing something has value, there were people who were put in jail by witnesses accounts.
Also in the bible they all were witnesses.
If a sane person is not lying they may be right when they said something happened to them don't you think?
You take me for a liar or someone who can't distinguish between anything or something...

Yes i have my reasons to believe prophecy is still active, yes i have cast out demons, and people still do it, and its very needed actually, and yes i had an ailment that i felt since i was a child and went away with some pastors words.

If you think people today doesn't need deliverance sorry but you are deluded and you are just letting the demons have their way freely on people or yourself. i am not saying everyone does this but someone has to do it and if you don't have a pastor and have spiritual problems you can deal with them yourself with the help of God like it happened to me.

Nothing taught me how to pray like my elderly granny. One day she was totally out of it and I thought to myself what in the world am I going to do? Then I remembered the prayer cloths and anointing oil RW Schambach sent me. I prayed for her a Schambach style prayer... And nothing happened. I then went home to rest a little, came back, and she is sitting up! I said, Granny... You are sitting up! She went the next year without having to go the hospital or the doctor until a stroke got her a year later at the age of 89.

My dad appears to have COVID, yet the hospitals have released him. I passed by yesterday morning and the house was dark and he lay there looking like he had passed this world. I shook him, and got a response, and left him to rest. This morning I passed by and the house was all lit up! He was watching Bill Winston and everything seemed ok. I commented that he was listening into the power of God and that was better than any medication a hospital could give him. Will see! If he makes a full recovery I would love to hear the testimony on how God brought him down to his last breath.... And then brought him back! He also listens to Joseph Prince and I have taken time to pray with him myself.

Major1 said:

Exactly. "Let him call for the elders of the church"......NOT Benny Hinn or Peter Popoff!

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As I told you- the gifts (most especially tongues and interpretations) are so abused and misunderstood. Especially by those televangelists who make a living preying (not praying) on the vulnerable in the body of Christ and sheering them for their sustenance.

guys like them I believe they are most likely saved- will have to answer to the Lord for their deceptions.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
King James Version

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


All these passages negate your hypothesis that only the 11 had the charismatic gifts.

Now some of my fellow Baptist brethren say the charisms were for the first century only and that once John finished his prophesying- the gifts ceased. their argument is that once John wrote the last book of the NT, the perfect is come and there were no more need for the gifts. but the perfect is Jesus and the verb "is come" in verse 10 is the second aorist active subjunctive 3rd person singular! So it speaks of a future date when teh perfect arrives. We did not have the New Testament affirmed until teh fourth century.

Major1 said:

Because there are NO Apostles today and according to Mark 16:14-18, ONLY the Apostles had those Sign Gifts which was the purpose of this thread.

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What is it in your opinion that makes the apostles special in that sense? We have the same Holy Spirit, right?

nolidad said:

As I told you- the gifts (most especially tongues and interpretations) are so abused and misunderstood. Especially by those televangelists who make a living preying (not praying) on the vulnerable in the body of Christ and sheering them for their sustenance.

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Okay. I assume that there is widespread agreement with your point there.

Now some of my fellow Baptist brethren say the charisms were for the first century only and that once John finished his prophesying- the gifts ceased. their argument is that once John wrote the last book of the NT, the perfect is come and there were no more need for the gifts.

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but the perfect is Jesus and the verb "is come" in verse 10 is the second aorist active subjunctive 3rd person singular! So it speaks of a future date when teh perfect arrives. We did not have the New Testament affirmed until teh fourth century.

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Those are several common views of the matter, yes. However, the perspective of Cessationists is much more direct that any of that.

The gifts did cease to be a significant or definitive part of the life of the Church sometime during the ancient period. I agree that there probably were occasional instances of someone being said to have the gift of tongues or one of the other gifts after that, but as far as such a thing driving the Church or characterizing the faith, or having anything much to do with converting the remaining masses of pagans...no.

So they ceased for all intents and purposes, and people who understand this are called Cessationists for that reason.

Major1 said:

In the New Test. Greek ..."Prophesy" means to TEACH....Tell Forth!

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If the gift of prophecy is no longer valid. Then can we infer that a Christian cannot, 'teach', another Christian, anything about Jesus?

klutedavid said:

If the gift of prophecy is no longer valid. Then can we infer that a Christian cannot, 'teach', another Christian, anything about Jesus?

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That's not a reasonable conclusion. Yes, prophesy is instructive, but there's no reason to think that it is the ONLY means of instruction.

If it were, there wouldn't have been the divine revelation given through the books of the Bible, for instance.