God changes His mind...

Carl Emerson · Nov 29, 2020

Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

Jeshu · Nov 29, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

He changed His mind for remaining basically unapproachable.

Sabertooth · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

He made it so that anybody who was washed in the Blood of the Lamb was infinitely more clean than the ritualistically clean high priest and could approach Him.

Are You Washed In The Blood? (Joey + Rory)

Soyeong · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

It is good to keep in mind that the Bible is written from an observer perspective. For example, if we are walking in the same direction as the wind, then we say that the wind is for us, but if we are walking the opposite direction, then we say that the wind is against us even through the wind has stayed the same while we are the ones who are changing direction. Or for example, it appears to us as though the sun is moving around the earth when in reality the sun that is relatively stationary while it is the earth that is rotating. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so what appears to us as God changing us actually us changing.

The Bible does not state why the temple curtain was ripped and certainly does not say that it was because God changed his mind about something.

Carl Emerson · Nov 30, 2020

Ripping the curtain was a desecration.

Eph 2:
11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16 and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

disciple Clint · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Ripping the curtain was a desecration.

Eph 2:
11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16 and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

desecration? It appears to be more of a reconciliation.

disciple Clint · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

In this situation my feeling is that He did not change His mind, He had long planed to reconcile the relationship with man through the sacrifice of Jesus. Orthodox Theology would say that God never changes His mind but there are certainly many verses in the Bible that would cause a reasonable person to question that.

paul1149 · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

I don't believe these are occasions of the Lord changing His mind, at least not arbitrarily. In John, the 8th verse is tied to the 6th. Both say kairos emos, literally 'the particular time appointed to me'. It didn't matter when the brothers went to the feast; their time was "always at hand". But because Jesus would testify that "the world's works are evil," and there would be opposition, He had a precise time to go up. When it came, He went up, His way.

In 1Chr the narrative is not given in strict sequential order. The plague had already killed 70,000, and when David saw the angel ready to go for Jerusalem, he repented and offered himself as atonement for his sin in order to spare the nation. God accepted this and stanched the punishment.

God renting the Temple veil also is in response to changing conditions. As David's atonement with Israel had adumbrated, Jesus now had accomplished the true and final atonement for our sins and now the punishment - separation from God, with us attempting to be reconciled by deeds of the Law - could be ended.

eleos1954 · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

Carl Emerson said:
However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

He didn't change His mind about anything .... when Jesus died on the cross ... He was the only acceptable sacrifice and final sacrifice for all ... for all times ... and became our high priest. Therefore no more need for the earthly sanctuary system.

Psalm 110:4

The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

Hebrews 5:6

just as He says also in another passage,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

The result of sin is death (Romans 6:23), but God intended to teach that the sinner’s death sentence could be pardoned, and the death penalty could revert back upon the sin’s instigator.

The purpose of the earthly sanctuary was to teach that salvation centered in Christ’s sacrifice as well as by His ministration in the heavenly sanctuary. Confession and faith were required in this sole provision by God.

The earthly sanctuary lessons taught God’s perfect and complete plan for man’s salvation. The symbolism of the animal sacrifice was fulfilled completely when Jesus lived the perfect life of sacrifice and service, and then was slain as the unblemished “lamb of God.” He died once for all .... for all time.

Hebrews 10:4

Berean Study Bible
because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 9:12
He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

The importance of the earthly sanctuary lessons were daily reenacted in the earthly sanctuary (as an example of the salvation plan/process). The services also became a reality when these types were continued by Jesus Himself in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest (Hebrews chapters 8 and 9).

No more need for a earthly sanctuary system. Jesus is our High Priest and ministers from the heavenly sanctuary.

Soyeong · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Ripping the curtain was a desecration.

Eph 2:
11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16 and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Can you quote anything in the Bible that directly states anything like that the temple curtain is a dividing wall of hostility? The Greek word used is not used by the Bible to refer to God's laws.

Carl Emerson · Nov 30, 2020

Soyeong said:
Can you quote anything in the Bible that directly states anything like that the temple curtain is a dividing wall of hostility? The Greek word used is not used by the Bible to refer to God's laws.

It sounds like you simply don't know why He ripped the curtain...

wandering misfit · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

wandering misfit · Nov 30, 2020

Or God didn't change His mind. Care to tell me why God would change His mind?

wandering misfit · Nov 30, 2020

paul1149 said:
God renting the Temple veil also is in response to changing conditions. As David's atonement with Israel had adumbrated, Jesus now had accomplished the true and final atonement for our sins and now the punishment - separation from God, with us attempting to be reconciled by deeds of the Law - could be ended.

Ok, how does Scripture fit this hypothesis? David wasn't the 1st Adam.

1213 · Nov 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
...John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly......

I just want to show that World English Bible says it like this:

You go up to the feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, because my time is not yet fulfilled."
John 7:8

There is the word yet. So, Jesus didn’t actually say that he doesn’t go at all, he just didn’t go there right at that moment.

Carl Emerson · Nov 30, 2020

1213 said:
I just want to show that World English Bible says it like this:

You go up to the feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, because my time is not yet fulfilled."
John 7:8

There is the word yet. So, Jesus didn’t actually say that he doesn’t go at all, he just didn’t go there right at that moment.

The word yet does not occur in the Greek text. It was added by the translator to fit his theology.

Dkh587 · Nov 30, 2020

1213 said:
I just want to show that World English Bible says it like this:

You go up to the feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, because my time is not yet fulfilled."
John 7:8

There is the word yet. So, Jesus didn’t actually say that he doesn’t go at all, he just didn’t go there right at that moment.

The KJV also has the word “yet”:

Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

wandering misfit · Nov 30, 2020

Dkh587 said:
The KJV also has the word “yet”:

Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

While I'm not a linguist, I propose the translation and the use of "yet" isn't in a 21st century context. The old languages by construct tell people the here and now, the English cannot represent the intent of the passage.

Soyeong · Dec 1, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
It sounds like you simply don't know why He ripped the curtain...

If you can't show where the Bible directly states anything like that the temple curtain is a dividing wall of hostility and if you can't even specifically explain in which ways the curtain was acting as a dividing wall of hostility, then you do not have good grounds for interpreting that a dividing wall of hostility as referring to the temple curtain, especially when the Greek word isn't ever used to refer to any of God's laws. Paul did not directly state what the dividing wall of hostility was and the Bible likewise does not directly state the reason for the curtain being torn, so people have speculated a variety of reasons for each, but it is something that you should try to justify rather than assume, and it generally is not a good idea to build doctrine out of your speculations.

Carl Emerson · Dec 1, 2020

Ex 32 NASB

11Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12“Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13“Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

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