Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

chad kincham · Nov 30, 2020

Guojing said:
The argument that it has ceased is straightforward:

Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)

The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)

When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)

Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)

God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).

Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)

Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)

Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)

By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).

Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Too bad it’s straightforwardly erroneous.

In fact the bottom line is 2 Timothy 3 is about the last days, per verse 1:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

In 2 Timothy 3, we are warned to stay away from Spiritually dead, semi-apostate cessationist churches, that play church - they have a form of Godliness, but deny the POWER thereof.

The word power is Dunamis in the Greek, defined as miracle working, dynamic Holy Spirit power.

We are to stay away from those churches that claim that miracles and other gifts from the Holy Spirit ceased and there’s no power available in these last days.

Palmfever · Nov 30, 2020

Knowledge is increasing. As the Stones sang, useless information. The knowledge we need is of the truth, and I'm not sure that is on the increase. 2nd Tim, 3:But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Guojing · Nov 30, 2020

chad kincham said:
Too bad it’s straightforwardly erroneous.

In fact the bottom line is 2 Timothy 3 is about the last days, per verse 1:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

In 2 Timothy 3, we are warned to stay away from Spiritually dead, semi-apostate cessationist churches, that play church - they have a form of Godliness, but deny the POWER thereof.

The word power is Dunamis in the Greek, defined as miracle working, dynamic Holy Spirit power.

We are to stay away from those churches that claim that miracles and other gifts from the Holy Spirit ceased and there’s no power available in these last days.

Which points do you disagree with exactly?

Guojing · Nov 30, 2020

chad kincham said:
Yes, that’s the false premise.

When that which is perfect comes, we then see face to face.

The Bible has no face - but Jesus does.

Here’s the passage:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Notice in verse 8, three things end, when that which is perfect comes: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.

Yet in the last days, knowledge increases, says Daniel the prophet:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And prophecy also increases in the last days, as God pours out His spirit:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Since knowledge and prophecy increases in the last days and end times - and knowledge, prophecy and tongues end at the same time - it’s obvious that tongues and prophecy, which are gifts of the Holy Spirit, are for today, until Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.

If the perfect refers to Jesus 2nd coming, and we see him face to face with out redeemed body and mind, why do you think we would still need to have hope, as stated in 1 Cor 13:13?

Jaxxi · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
I thought the post was pretty clear.

But Yes.....The Bible says that the SIGN GIFTS were given to the ELEVEN Apostles plus Paul because THEY saw Jesus and were personally commissioned by Christ.

What see today with healings and tongues and knowledge and prophecy is not Biblical. It is IMHO a process of Faked experiences simply because they are easy to do and doing them makes people FEEL like they have experienced a visitation from God.

However.......experiences do not increase faith and in reality does the opposite.

Wonders and signs are actually something the coming Anti-christ is going to do.

Revelation 13:13-14........
"And he (A/C) doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

“And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live."

That is true. So you are saying that after the Apostles no one receives gifts from the Holy Spirit?

In Mark 13:11 it says

And when they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you at that time; for you are not the ones speaking, but it is the Holy Spirit.

This would be the only gift from God then, given by the Holy Spirit.

Albion · Nov 30, 2020

chad kincham said:
That scenario is a weak attempt to explain away cessationist error.

Miracles confirmed the word then, and are needed even more to confirm the word today.

It's not about occasional miracles; and I thought I was clear enough in the way I worded my post.

The church isn’t established to the billions of people in today’s world of greatly increased atheism that denies God even exists, or to the one billion Muslims that came 7 centuries after Jesus, that are taught in the Koran that God has no son, and Jesus didn’t die on a cross.

That doesn't affect what I was explaining. The purpose of the gifts was to establish the Church in a hostile world. THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED.

It's not as though every last person alive had to become a believer or else the founding of the Church that Christ spoke of was unsuccessful or incomplete.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2020

Healing with Jesus said:
If Mark 16:14 is not about the whole Church, then logic follows that the Great Commission in Mark 16:15 is also not for the whole Church.

That is a very dangerous belief.

This argument reminds me of John 9 when Jesus healed the blind man. The religious authorities grilled the man and his parents. Also, Jesus healed him on the Sabbath. Who was this formerly blind man to tell them that Jesus is a prophet? That sure got their blood boiling, and they threw him out of the temple.

It's interesting because continuationists don't seem to get riled up when cessationalists are not using sign gifts. Where's that anger coming from?

Its not dangerous once you understand the following

God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).

chad kincham · Nov 30, 2020

Mark 16:14 is not about the whole Church, then logic follows that the Great Commission in Mark 16:15 is also not for the whole Church.

That is a very dangerous belief.

This argument reminds me of John 9 when Jesus healed the blind man. The religious authorities grilled the man and his parents. Also, Jesus healed him on the Sabbath. Who was this formerly blind man to tell them that Jesus is a prophet? That sure got their blood boiling, and they threw him out of the temple.

It's interesting because continuationists don't seem to get riled up when cessationalists are not using sign gifts. Where's that anger coming from

Palmfever said:
Knowledge is increasing. As the Stones sang, useless information. The knowledge we need is of the truth, and I'm not sure that is on the increase. 2nd Tim, 3:But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All three end at the same time.

Since you can’t refute that prophecy increases in the last days, if one of the three are for the last days, all three are.

chad kincham · Nov 30, 2020

Albion said:
That doesn't affect what I was explaining. The purpose of the gifts was to establish the Church in a hostile world. THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED.

Was it accomplished with the majority of Jews, who were the elect nation that Jesus came for?

It’s accomplished only in the minds of believers, not to 6 billion people out of 7 billion.

To the vast majority of those on earth, miracles are still needed to confirm the word, even more today than ever.

FutureAndAHope · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

I have been bought up in a tradition that believes that the gifts are still available. This has led me to see the bible in a totally different light.

It is my belief that the gifts are still available, we have the same words that the apostles had, through their writings. So essentially we have received the same teaching as the apostles, and if we apply it with faith, and obedience, we will have the same works.

I have run a small online ministry for a few years (it is not running at the moment however), and I have seen Jesus heal, as it was offered. A Muslim man came to me after he was healed to ask about faith. Others have had their family members healed (of incurable illness) through prayer in Jesus' name. Although these things do not happen with the frequency they did will the apostles, they still happen.

Albion · Nov 30, 2020

chad kincham said:
Was it accomplished with the majority of Jews, who were the elect nation that Jesus came for?

Within a century of Pentecost, the Christian church was planted from Britain to India and into northern Africa.

This spread is considered by historians to be one of history's great success stories, especially considering that the Roman Empire was alive with all sorts of competing religions and the government was engaged in actively persecuting the Christians.

John Mullally · Nov 30, 2020

Palmfever said:
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't the premise for the expiration of gifts based on the arrival of the new testament? What is, "That which is perfect?" 1 Cor, 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Ephesians 4:11-14 provides a key as to what the "when that which is perfect is come" consists of. Ephesians 4:11 identifies the 5 ministry offices (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers). Ephesians 4:12 and 4:14 identifies why these ministry offices are essential. Ephesians 4:13 identifies the conditions for their termination. I believe Ephesians 4:13 identifies the "when that which is perfect is come" condition of 1 Corinithians 13:10 because the office of the Prophet (and thus prophecy) is retained until the Ephesians 4:13 is met.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Scripture is best interpreted by other scriptures.

DamianWarS · Dec 1, 2020

Major1 said:
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

are you prepared to void everything that precedes "them" simply because we are not the eleven? Christ says "And these signs will accompany those who believe" now we are not talking about just "them" but now "those". to come to your conclusion more than grammar is needed and you need to guess at an exclusive message to the eleven present rather than an inclusive message intended to grow with Christendom. Your interpretation seems rather odd given it is not explicitly stated and seems to be counter-spirit to the spread of the gospel, not to mention discredits guys like Paul who teaches entire communities on some of these signs.

zoidar · Dec 1, 2020

Major1 said:
Have you actually seen a blind person healed of their affliction by a man???

I was there! It wasn't on youtube.

Now are you willing to state that there was no deception involved?

Yes, pretty sure, know the Christian well.

Is is possible a man might "pay" someone to pretend they are blind and then healed for a bigger love offering?

In this case no. It was on the street and no audience or offering involved.

Edit: I'm not sure if she was completely blind or partially blind. But her sight was too poor for her to manage on her own... Actually I remember one more thing about this occurance, it's just too personal to share it.

Maybe this still doesn't prove "continuationism" (I got convinced though, it's like I know within my heart). It could have been an isolated event, but I believe it wasn't, but can't tell with 100% certainty. Anyhow I know what is possible with God. We'll see bigger things!
:amen:

klutedavid · Dec 1, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

I would not be calling the churches that utilize the gifts, of the Holy Spirit. Churches that are under some kind of demonic influence.

"Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths."

That is a dangerous thing to say. If you are wrong and there are, in fact, Pentecostal churches correctly employing those gifts of the Holy Spirit. Then what you stated is paramount to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was said by the Pharisees, to be using the power of the devil to heal. Jesus said that the Pharisees had blasphemed and that was unforgivable.

I would like to know why people take such tremendous risks, in judging other Christians?

rockytopva · Dec 1, 2020

I am a supporter of the Bible Broadcasting Network, and sometimes will hear messages against tongues. I remain a supporter, though a Pentecostal, as I do like their prayer format. One day I wrote in saying that I was glad they prayed prayers for people in faith. I was surprised to have received a return message saying. "Yea! And we have received a great number of healing testimonies as well!"

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. - Romans 14:1

It is not scriptural to entertain doubtful disputations with fellow believers. If you don't believe in something don't seek it!

danielmears · Dec 1, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

Signs and wonders are still here! The only thing required is love and faith! Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8 Pour out the love of God on humanity, for He is the fountain of life living in Us, be one with Christ and the Father, all of us one! God is the God of the living and His power is with Us! We are His hands but He provides the power! Commentary on “The Light” – The Realm by Daniel Mears

GooFYone · Dec 1, 2020

Palmfever said:
Of course, and miracles occur. We may not command one to raise up and walk, we pray and in faith expect the same result.

If all things are possible in Christ, why not raise the dead? Heal the sick? Cast out demons?

zoidar · Dec 1, 2020

GooFYone said:
If all things are possible in Christ, why not raise the dead? Heal the sick? Cast out demons?

Yeah, why not?

GooFYone · Dec 1, 2020

rockytopva said:
I am a supporter of the Bible Broadcasting Network, and sometimes will hear messages against tongues. I remain a supporter, though a Pentecostal, as I do like their prayer format. One day I wrote in saying that I was glad they prayed prayers for people in faith. I was surprised to have received a return message saying. "Yea! And we have received a great number of healing testimonies as well!"

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. - Romans 14:1

It is not scriptural to entertain doubtful disputations with fellow believers. If you don't believe in something don't seek it!

I believe that Jesus literally walked on water.

Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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