Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

Major1 said:

I thought the post was pretty clear.

But Yes.....The Bible says that the SIGN GIFTS were given to the ELEVEN Apostles plus Paul because THEY saw Jesus and were personally commissioned by Christ.

What see today with healings and tongues and knowledge and prophecy is not Biblical. It is IMHO a process of Faked experiences simply because they are easy to do and doing them makes people FEEL like they have experienced a visitation from God.

However.......experiences do not increase faith and in reality does the opposite.

Wonders and signs are actually something the coming Anti-christ is going to do.

Revelation 13:13-14........
"And he (A/C) doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

“And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live."

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Stephen was not an apostle, but Stephen was full of faith and the same miracle working Dunamis power that the 125 people at pentecost, not just 11 apostles, received, Acts 1:8, and did great miracles among the people.

The word POWER in both verses is DUNAMIS - miracle working HS power.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

The miracles that deceive includes making fire come down from heaven, because the false prophet emulates Elijah the prophet and claims to him returned.

The claim God would let a believer get a demonic counterfeit when seeking the Holy Spirit is refuted by Jesus, who said that if earthly fathers, who are evil in comparison to God, won’t give a stone to their child when they ask for bread, nor a scorpion to them when they ask for a fish,then how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?

You’re claiming God let’s His children have a demon instead of the gift of the Holy Spirit Dunamis power given at Pentecost that that Peter said in Acts 2:38-39, is “for us, our children, ALL AFAR OFF, even to AS MANY AS GOD SHALL CALL.”

Tongues, knowledge and prophesy all end “when that which is perfect comes” and then “we will see FACE TO FACE”.

Some claim that which is perfect is the Bible - yet books don’t have a face.

I can’t come face to face with a book, but I can with Jesus when He returns - and the gifts end then.

In the last days, knowledge increases, and we are today in a huge knowledge explosion.

In the last days God pours out His spirit and prophecy increases.

Since prophecy , a gift of the HS that Paul teaches the church at Corinth how to use properly, increases in the last days, and so does knowledge, it’s obvious that gifts of the HS have not ended, including tongues, which is one of the three that end simultaneously one day.

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Albion said:

You may say that they were meant to validate the Apostles IF we include the purpose for God having done that.

In other words, the gifts were given for the purpose of spreading the faith into a pagan world. It is understandable that after that was accomplished, the gifts, at least as a commonplace phenomenon, gradually disappeared.

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That scenario is a weak attempt to explain away cessationist error.

Miracles confirmed the word then, and are needed even more to confirm the word today.

The church isn’t established to the billions of people in today’s world of greatly increased atheism that denies God even exists, or to the one billion Muslims that came 7 centuries after Jesus, that are taught in the Koran that God has no son, and Jesus didn’t die on a cross.

And there are more competing religions, all claiming to have the truth.

Those competing religions all have their own sacred writings, so the Bible means nothing to billions of people. and those 1 billion Muslims are also taught that the Bible is badly corrupted.

In addition to that, polls show a majority of Christians don’t even believe today that the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God, or that Jesus is really the only way, and several major denominations are apostate today, and are more a social club instead of a church - with gay clergy, and the whole left wing liberal ideology.

I’ve seen testimony by third world missionaries that they learned that people don’t respond very well to the gospel when preached - and they learned to first call for the sick to come forward and be prayed for - and when the crowd sees people they know, healed in the name of Jesus, they are quick to believe in Jesus and the gospel, because the word was confirmed to them.

Guojing said:

Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)

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What of the sign of tongues manifested in Cornelius and family ?

A_Thinker said:

What of the sign of tongues manifested in Cornelius and family ?

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Thanks for the question.

It falls under my point 8. It tells Peter, and the Jewish believers and "alert Israel of the change in dispensation".

That was why Peter was able to use that incident to defend Paul's gospel of the uncircumcision in Acts 15.

If He isn't manifesting His very nature to heal and restore today as He did then, than He isn't the same yesterday, today and forever.
Jesus clearly stated in these last days many would have an outward form of godliness and deny the power thereof.
Experiencing God was the norm in Genesis before the fall, after 2,000 years of confusion He found Abram and fellowship was given to select ones, Jesus came to restore that which was lost and did so, Revelation 22 shows us the restoration will be complete.
Ask Him to reveal Himself, He will do so if you seek Him with all your heart, He always keeps His promises. If there is a problem it is never on His end, it is always down here.

Major1 said:

Possible meaning????

Bible doctrine is formulated out of actual literal words my brother.

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Yet your saying only 11 people in NT Scriptures ever displayed sign gifts, all the while ignoring the fact most of the people in the New Testament displayed sign gifts.

Your completely ignoring the 72 for instance, as well as those brothers who laid hands on Paul, those brothers who prophesied about his impending arrest should he go through with his trip to Jerusalem...

Pretty much everyone who was saved in the NT displayed varying sign gifts.

To be honest, God bless you all.

What do you do with this? Jame, 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. It sounds to me that we may be lacking faith.
Why pray at all if God is out of the healing business?
Matt, 11: If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
James, 5,:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
I am not "Charismatic, nor Pentecostal, I am not however, ready to discount the God who is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

Palmfever said:

What do you do with this? Jame, 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. It sounds to me that we may be lacking faith.
Why pray at all if God is out of the healing business?
Matt, 11: If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
James, 5,:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
I am not "Charismatic, nor Pentecostal, I am not however, ready to discount the God who is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

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You pray now, according to what Paul taught us to pray in the Body of Christ in Philippians 4:6-7

Guojing said:

You pray now, according to what Paul taught us to pray in the Body of Christ in Philippians 4:6-7

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Of course, and miracles occur. We may not command one to raise up and walk, we pray and in faith expect the same result.

Perhaps there is a happy medium between understating and overstating how these gifts work today? As for regular folks in the NT with sign gifts, didn’t regular Christians prophesy? (Acts 21:9, 11)

Palmfever said:

Of course, and miracles occur. We may not command one to raise up and walk, we pray and in faith expect the same result.

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Paul didn't teach that, instead he stated in vs 7

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus.

You don't expect God to always answer your healing prayer, for example, by healing you there and then.

You expect him to give you his peace, which pass even your own understanding, to guard your hearts.

THEY HAVE NOT ENDED !!!!!!!!!!

Mark16v16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

package deal upon receiving the Holy Spirit ; follow TRUE believers not those who have there own ways..

Warning his disciples against false (sudo) believers !!
religious types (which killed Jesus as they do today with blind false doctrine )who say praise God with the mouth etc but not Gods way !!

Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

a new test COMMAND ...

a) Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

so according to the word...

b) 1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

some are confused by the operation in the Church (people not building) no more than 3 tongues, corresponding interpretation and 2 at most 3 prophecy STILL THE SAME TODAY !

Go to your room and pray IN THE SPIRIT as Jesus told you ;only to be demonstrated in the church so people know you are what you say CHRISTIANS. (Christ ones)

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

we all can !! (when you receive the Holy Ghost , Gods way !)

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

HappyHope said:

Perhaps there is a happy medium between understating and overstating how these gifts work today? As for regular folks in the NT with sign gifts, didn’t regular Christians prophecy (Acts 21:9, 11)?

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Did all the apostles out live the individuals referred to in 1 Cor, !2:27? Just asking. "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."
Here again, I've prayed and have had prayers answered. God is good. This thread may be about miracle workers, which I am not... but I know someone who is.

Palmfever said:

Did all the apostles out live the individuals referred to in 1 Cor, !2:27? Just asking. "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."
Here again, I've prayed and have had prayers answered. God is good. This thread may be about miracle workers, which I am not... but I know someone who is.

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I have reason to believe these gifts are in play today. NT Scripture being the biggest reason. I wonder how well they are understood though—even by the gifted.
****except Apostles --I am strongly convinced they were hand-picked appointments by Jesus himself (Matthias still counts of course because he was chosen by lot and by the apostles themselves). There are no living apostles today.

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't the premise for the expiration of gifts based on the arrival of the new testament? What is, "That which is perfect?" 1 Cor, 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Steph

Don Maurer said:

Paul was the apostle born out of due season. HE was the last apostle. (I Cor 15:8ff)
"and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also."

Why did Paul say "last of all?" He is speaking in this context of the resurrection appearances of Christ. All apostles had to receive resurrection appearances that was a requirement for them to be an apostle (see Acts 1). Last of all, Paul saw Christ and became an apostle. He is the last one.

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Stephen wasn’t an apostle, yet was full of faith and Dunamis power, and did great miracles among the people.

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Major1 said:

Correct.

But Sign Gifts are not one of of those things.

Again I ask you to consider the actual Scriptures in Mark 16:14........
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Nothing there about the whole church.

As in all things like this, it comes down to what does the Scriptures actually say, not what we WANT them to say or what someone told us they said.?????

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If Mark 16:14 is not about the whole Church, then logic follows that the Great Commission in Mark 16:15 is also not for the whole Church.

That is a very dangerous belief.

This argument reminds me of John 9 when Jesus healed the blind man. The religious authorities grilled the man and his parents. Also, Jesus healed him on the Sabbath. Who was this formerly blind man to tell them that Jesus is a prophet? That sure got their blood boiling, and they threw him out of the temple.

It's interesting because continuationists don't seem to get riled up when cessationalists are not using sign gifts. Where's that anger coming from?

Palmfever said:

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't the premise for the expiration of gifts based on the arrival of the new testament? What is, "That which is perfect?" 1 Cor, 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

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Yes, that’s the false premise.

When that which is perfect comes, we then see face to face.

The Bible has no face - but Jesus does.

Here’s the passage:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Notice in verse 8, three things end, when that which is perfect comes: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge.

Yet in the last days, knowledge increases, says Daniel the prophet:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And prophecy also increases in the last days, as God pours out His spirit:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Since knowledge and prophecy increases in the last days and end times - and knowledge, prophecy and tongues end at the same time - it’s obvious that tongues and prophecy, which are gifts of the Holy Spirit, are for today, until Jesus returns and they are no longer needed.