Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Dave L said:
It's all hearsay all the way back to the 2nd century. Zero first-hand accounts. Just hear-say. Paul no longer healed in the Epistles but used medicine instead.

A pastor and a woman at that, said a word that 'someone is being healed of a heart problem, or something like that, God is giving you an 'athlete heart', i just giving you testimony that i had a feeling of weakness in my heart all my life, when she said that feeling dissapeared from me, and i don't get as tired as easily anymore, so i don't know what happened exactly, but it was an issue that worried me my entire life, i thought sometimes i would die young or something because of this.

So you have my first hand account here.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
A pastor and a woman at that, said a word that 'someone is being healed of a heart problem, or something like that, God is giving you an 'athlete heart', i just giving you testimony that i had a feeling of weakness in my heart all my life, when she said that feeling dissapeared from me, and i don't get as tired as easily anymore, so i don't know what happened exactly, but it was an issue that worried me my entire life, i thought sometimes i would die young or something because of this.

So you have my first hand account here.

Hearsay. How did it work-out?

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Dave L said:
Hearsay. How did it work-out?

Its not hearsay, it happened to me, in my face.

Don Maurer · Nov 30, 2020

When I started reading this thread, I thought someone would come in with some subjective, anecdotal claims. While there are some who attempt to take the high road and make some biblical arguments for the continuation of sign gifts, too many make their defense of the continuation of sign gifts by subjective experience claims.

This kind of argumentation is more a concern than what is being argued for. Speaking for myself, I can not accept any such claims as inspired or inn-errant. Such claims can never be on the same level of authority as the scripture itself.

zoidar · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

When a Christian man prays for a blind woman and she gets her sight back, it pretty much settles it for me. I haven't studied scripture about cessationism and continuationism. My mind is allready clear about it, from experience.

Christ love!

Edit: I think the gift of healing is quite rare nowadays, not because God is holding back, but because we do.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Don Maurer said:
When I started reading this thread, I thought someone would come in with some subjective, anecdotal claims. While there are some who attempt to take the high road and make some biblical arguments for the continuation of sign gifts, too many make their defense of the continuation of sign gifts by subjective experience claims.

This kind of argumentation is more a concern than what is being argued for. Speaking for myself, I can not accept any such claims as inspired or inn-errant. Such claims can never be on the same level of authority as the scripture itself.

Some people in the bible didn't believe when people were healed by Jesus either.
Also my experience is not subjective at all, i really was worried that this would end my life, and this ailment dissapeared. Also i have discerned and thrown out spirits out of myself with the help of God, and it really this made a difference like: i was suffering from x, and now after the spirit went away i was feeling better and didn't felt that torment/ailment anymore.

Also keep in mind the things written in the bible didn't get down from heaven like some 'heavenly relic' book, they were written by witnesses and from the experiences of the people themselves.

Also, the bible doesn't say anywhere that the gifts stopped, on the contrary the bible teachs that we need to get them/use them etc.

Blade · Nov 30, 2020

Was going to say something but.. where confusion is He is not. Not here to prove anything.. a man in Jesus day went around doing what He was doing and the 12 wanted to stop him. Peter and John.. why look at us as if we did this under our own power. Its FAITH in that name.

No demon not even Satan can do lying wonders. Not yet well the restrainer is still holding him back and we are still here. We have ALL power ALL authority over him. I can post the wonders I've seen yet if you do not believe His word you will not believe me or anyone else. If you doubt the gifts are for today ok but know His word is true. So if you doubt you will not receive anything from Him. Just because you believe they are gone.. does not change anything. It is doubting. For me the blind still see deaf hear dead rise.. on and on. And its always IN JESUS NAME..its FAITH in that name. All my life looking back all I can think is.. I was blind. I wonder why I still see wonders from my Father.. I just blindly believe. I walk where I can not see where I can not hear or feel. And haha as He when I was questioning these kind of things as some of you are now.

He said this "WHEN Have I ever failed you"? At that moment I could see.. He was there EVERY TIME! He wants to do so much more for you.. but you will not believe. You follow what some man says. Just read His word and walk. Trust HIM! He will not lead you the wrong way. There is no other TRUTH.. JESUS is the only Truth.

Gifts gone.. HE never told me this. Satan did.. and man does. God never has. GOD He just smiles and says.. trust me.. have faith and let me show you what I can do. HE LOVES TO GIVE! If its written it will happen. There is no TIME where God is. What we think was written some 5 thousand years ago was just spoken. As Issac was we ARE the Children of promise. Christ is the vine.. there are branches that are originally of the vine. You and me are grafted in and NO ONE can tell what branch is what..

So.. its ALL for His children. I am not moved by what I see hear READ or feel. And He still keeps His word. Seem blind.. BLIND shout scream cry.. 500 were there saw that one also.. in JESUS name he said. Go for it.. tell her the gifts are dead. Still going on today.. but not around those that doubt for they don't see any of that

Jaxxi · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

So what is the main point you are making here? The Bible says the gifts ended with the Apostles and any spiritual gifts we may have are of the devil and only imposters? Is that what is being expressed here, but out of our ignorance we are assuming they are from God because as humans we like to consider anything that is Supernatural and appears to be a blessing is of God. ( when in fact the devil will see us on the wrong path and give us fake spiritual gifts to keep us on the wrong path while we think they are from God) Is this what this message is saying? I can see some truth to this notion. The devil answers prayers of the skeptic, of the lukewarm, to make them think they are going to heaven. In fact I think people nowadays are so filled with sin that rarely anyone is actually hearing from God. Think of all the white lies we tell, the things we borrow without asking and put back, the small debts owed, the things found and kept not belonging to us, the profanity used, all these can keep us out of heaven and sent to hell. Repent! We must make daily repentance a part of our lives.

zoidar · Nov 30, 2020

1 Corintians 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

I don't know how to seek the gifts, but I think it's about having a pure heart.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

Remember when the Apostle's were complaining to Jesus about other people outside of the group performing miracles and such? Here is scripture:

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

The days are long gone for me after these verses finally sunk in. Let the Father be their judge. If it is counterfeit, then they have already received their reward. We have the power to discern what is of the Holy Spirit and what is not. If some choose to quench the truth, then it is their lack of knowledge that will leave them desolate. Be blessed.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

It doesn't make sense God stopped doing things though, why would he?
"For who believes, everything is possible"

Casting out demons today is as needed as going to the doctor, but christians live opressed a lot of times, and we need to have discerment of spirits to do that, and there is people doing this today.

A cessationist can't deal with the devil it seems, God can't reveal to them spiritual problems, that would be God 'talking', and you will need discerment to detect the spirits, that would be forbidden too in the cessation book...

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
Remember when the Apostle's were complaining to Jesus about other people outside of the group performing miracles and such? Here is scripture:

38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.

The days are long gone for me after these verses finally sunk in. Let the Father be their judge. If it is counterfeit, then they have already received their reward. We have the power to discern what is of the Holy Spirit and what is not. If some choose to quench the truth, then it is their lack of knowledge that will leave them desolate. Be blessed.

I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make. I would however suggest that the context and point of the words Jesus said seem to me to be saying that Christians should be on guard against any fellowship which condones "False Doctrines".

Don Maurer · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
Some people in the bible didn't believe when people were healed by Jesus either.

The Bible, now your entering my world view. Lets talk about the Bible, why in the scripture do you see people who did not believe that Jesus was healing? Pick a passage and lets discuss the scriptures.

NBB said:
Also my experience is not subjective at all, i really was worried that this would end my life, and this ailment dissapeared. Also i have discerned and thrown out spirits out of myself with the help of God, and it really this made a difference like: i was suffering from x, and now after the spirit went away i was feeling better and didn't felt that torment/ailment anymore.

Actually, all that you are saying is completely subjective. To make it objective, it would need to avoid personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; it would need to be based on facts observable by others and completely unbiased. If you were a leper, or a man with a withered arm, or someone that everyone knew was blind from birth, then you could claim that you were objectively healed. Everyone can see those things. They are observable and verifiable by any observer.

Healers never heal people today that can be observed and verified. Check out Justin Peters. He is an invalid man who has attended many Benny Hinn scams. Healers heal people with heart issues, or other non-observable and non-verifiable issues.

NBB said:
Also keep in mind the things written in the bible didn't get down from heaven like some 'heavenly relic' book, they were written by witnesses and from the experiences of the people themselves.

This is the bottom line of our disagreement. It is one of authority. In my theology and world view only the scriptures in inerrant, inspired, infallible. The bible is the supreme authority that judges all other authority. When it comes to anything with reference to God, Christ, the Father, the Holy Spirit and the works of God, only the scriptures speaks with supreme authority. The Bible alone is the word of God. Only the Bible is traceable back to apostolic revelation and Christ. All other claims to be the word of God are false claims.

NBB said:
Also, the bible doesn't say anywhere that the gifts stopped, on the contrary the bible teachs that we need to get them/use them etc.

Well, it would be to misrepresent what others and myself are saying to suggest we believe that all gifts have ceased. I myself do not believe all gifts have ceased. I believe certain gifts connected with the special revelation of the NT have ceased.

One such gift would be apostleship. If apostleship continued, then more and more books of the Bible should be continually being written. Of course any claim to apostleship must meet the requirements of apostleship in Acts 1. That would be to witness Christ in both his earthly life and in his resurrection. Do you believe in apostleship and continued revelation? Apostleship is a gift mentioned in the NT frequently.

Also, it is a painfully weak argument to suggest that I must have a verse that says a gift has ceased. It is the same argument used by anti-trinitarians when they ask to see the word "trinity" in the bible. It is the argument of silence. In fact if the bible teaches that the requirements of the gift, or the purpose of the gift has ceased, then it has ceased.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
It doesn't make sense God stopped doing things though, why would he?
"For who believes, everything is possible"

Casting out demons today is as needed as going to the doctor, but christians live opressed a lot of times, and we need to have discerment of spirits to do that, and there is people doing this today.

A cessationist can't deal with the devil it seems, God can't reveal to them spiritual problems, that would be God 'talking', and you will need discerment to detect the spirits, that would be forbidden too in the cessation book...

If that is the case then how do you explain the literal words of Scripture which say in 1 Corinthians 13:8........
"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Don Maurer · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
If that is the case then how do you explain the literal words of Scripture which say in 1 Corinthians 13:8........
"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

I agree. I hesitated to quote this text because of the different interpretations. If I can express my opinion about this text?.......

The word perfect (τέλειον) would be better translated "complete." That translation is within the meaning of the term. It contrasts with verse 9... "we know in part, and we prophecy in part." When the complete comes, that which is in part is done away with. It is speaking of a completed revelation.

Some interpret the word τέλειον (perfect) to speak of Christs 2nd coming. The focus on the later phrase "face to face." I think the phrase "face to face" is an illustration of how much we can know Christ with a completed revelation.

Thanks for your posts.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Jaxxi said:
So what is the main point you are making here? The Bible says the gifts ended with the Apostles and any spiritual gifts we may have are of the devil and only imposters? Is that what is being expressed here, but out of our ignorance we are assuming they are from God because as humans we like to consider anything that is Supernatural and appears to be a blessing is of God. ( when in fact the devil will see us on the wrong path and give us fake spiritual gifts to keep us on the wrong path while we think they are from God) Is this what this message is saying? I can see some truth to this notion. The devil answers prayers of the skeptic, of the lukewarm, to make them think they are going to heaven. In fact I think people nowadays are so filled with sin that rarely anyone is actually hearing from God. Think of all the white lies we tell, the things we borrow without asking and put back, the small debts owed, the things found and kept not belonging to us, the profanity used, all these can keep us out of heaven and sent to hell. Repent! We must make daily repentance a part of our lives.

I thought the post was pretty clear.

But Yes.....The Bible says that the SIGN GIFTS were given to the ELEVEN Apostles plus Paul because THEY saw Jesus and were personally commissioned by Christ.

What see today with healings and tongues and knowledge and prophecy is not Biblical. It is IMHO a process of Faked experiences simply because they are easy to do and doing them makes people FEEL like they have experienced a visitation from God.

However.......experiences do not increase faith and in reality does the opposite.

Wonders and signs are actually something the coming Anti-christ is going to do.

Revelation 13:13-14........
"And he (A/C) doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

“And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast, saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, that had the wound by a sword, and did live."

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Don Maurer said:
I agree. I hesitated to quote this text because of the different interpretations. If I can express my opinion about this text?.......

The word perfect (τέλειον) would be better translated "complete." That translation is within the meaning of the term. It contrasts with verse 9... "we know in part, and we prophecy in part." When the complete comes, that which is in part is done away with. It is speaking of a completed revelation.

Some interpret the word τέλειον (perfect) to speak of Christs 2nd coming. The focus on the later phrase "face to face." I think the phrase "face to face" is an illustration of how much we can know Christ with a completed revelation.

Thanks for your posts.

Thank you for your comment brother. Lord knows I do not do this to cause anger or to argue.

It is my experience of 50 years of Christian ministry that people DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO NO MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

In the original post I made it very clear that the language is the key.

Mark 16:14 is the Great Commission of the Sign Gifts were given to the Apostles where we see......
"Them that believe" ...!!!!!!

In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean.

It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Don Maurer said:
The Bible, now your entering my world view. Lets talk about the Bible, why in the scripture do you see people who did not believe that Jesus was healing? Pick a passage and lets discuss the scriptures.

Actually, all that you are saying is completely subjective. To make it objective, it would need to avoid personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; it would need to be based on facts observable by others and completely unbiased. If you were a leper, or a man with a withered arm, or someone that everyone knew was blind from birth, then you could claim that you were objectively healed. Everyone can see those things. They are observable and verifiable by any observer.

Healers never heal people today that can be observed and verified. Check out Justin Peters. He is an invalid man who has attended many Benny Hinn scams. Healers heal people with heart issues, or other non-observable and non-verifiable issues.

This is the bottom line of our disagreement. It is one of authority. In my theology and world view only the scriptures in inerrant, inspired, infallible. The bible is the supreme authority that judges all other authority. When it comes to anything with reference to God, Christ, the Father, the Holy Spirit and the works of God, only the scriptures speaks with supreme authority. The Bible alone is the word of God. Only the Bible is traceable back to apostolic revelation and Christ. All other claims to be the word of God are false claims.

Well, it would be to misrepresent what others and myself are saying to suggest we believe that all gifts have ceased. I myself do not believe all gifts have ceased. I believe certain gifts connected with the special revelation of the NT have ceased.

One such gift would be apostleship. If apostleship continued, then more and more books of the Bible should be continually being written. Of course any claim to apostleship must meet the requirements of apostleship in Acts 1. That would be to witness Christ in both his earthly life and in his resurrection. Do you believe in apostleship and continued revelation? Apostleship is a gift mentioned in the NT frequently.

Also, it is a painfully weak argument to suggest that I must have a verse that says a gift has ceased. It is the same argument used by anti-trinitarians when they ask to see the word "trinity" in the bible. It is the argument of silence. In fact if the bible teaches that the requirements of the gift, or the purpose of the gift has ceased, then it has ceased.

So you say i had an imaginary ailment that i felt in myself since i was a child?, and it dissapeared when this person said that... suit yourself.

Also the OP was talking about Mark quote, in the name of Jesus they will cast out devils, this happens today, they will pray for the sick and they will heal, this happens today, i don't know about the others but if some happens today the others could too.

I have my reasons to believe prophecy is still active in the NT way that say that prophecy:

"They help people grow stronger in faith, and they give encouragement and comfort. 4 Those who speak in a different language are helping only themselves. But those who prophesy are helping the whole church."

I have seen some pastors/ministers show great discerment and revelation of things of the heart and spiritual issues they no way have the ability to know by themselves, and this was about things of myself not that they spoke to others.

But i'm not concerned in defending a theology or something, i would be concerned if people are cutting down the work of the Holy spirit though.

Also something i will defend with tooth and nail: being filled with the person of the Holy spirit is something people should seek and not everyone has, and the devil really doesn't want people to get this, it just work against him. And its very biblical. The same way the disciples and other people received the Holy spirit in the bible, christians can today.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Blade said:
Was going to say something but.. where confusion is He is not. Not here to prove anything.. a man in Jesus day went around doing what He was doing and the 12 wanted to stop him. Peter and John.. why look at us as if we did this under our own power. Its FAITH in that name.

No demon not even Satan can do lying wonders. Not yet well the restrainer is still holding him back and we are still here. We have ALL power ALL authority over him. I can post the wonders I've seen yet if you do not believe His word you will not believe me or anyone else. If you doubt the gifts are for today ok but know His word is true. So if you doubt you will not receive anything from Him. Just because you believe they are gone.. does not change anything. It is doubting. For me the blind still see deaf hear dead rise.. on and on. And its always IN JESUS NAME..its FAITH in that name. All my life looking back all I can think is.. I was blind. I wonder why I still see wonders from my Father.. I just blindly believe. I walk where I can not see where I can not hear or feel. And haha as He when I was questioning these kind of things as some of you are now.

He said this "WHEN Have I ever failed you"? At that moment I could see.. He was there EVERY TIME! He wants to do so much more for you.. but you will not believe. You follow what some man says. Just read His word and walk. Trust HIM! He will not lead you the wrong way. There is no other TRUTH.. JESUS is the only Truth.

Gifts gone.. HE never told me this. Satan did.. and man does. God never has. GOD He just smiles and says.. trust me.. have faith and let me show you what I can do. HE LOVES TO GIVE! If its written it will happen. There is no TIME where God is. What we think was written some 5 thousand years ago was just spoken. As Issac was we ARE the Children of promise. Christ is the vine.. there are branches that are originally of the vine. You and me are grafted in and NO ONE can tell what branch is what..

So.. its ALL for His children. I am not moved by what I see hear READ or feel. And He still keeps His word. Seem blind.. BLIND shout scream cry.. 500 were there saw that one also.. in JESUS name he said. Go for it.. tell her the gifts are dead. Still going on today.. but not around those that doubt for they don't see any of that

Nice words but I for one do not grasp your meaning. It is probably just me.

I did notice that you said..........
"Gifts gone.. HE never told me this. Satan did.. and man does."

Would you then please explain the actual words of what God did literally say in 1 Corinthians. 13:8-9............

"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now before you say to me that the "Perfect is come" is Jesus incarnation, please note that Greek gramatics make that idea impossible.

"Perfect is Come" in Greek is the word "TELION" which literally mean MATURE. It is a word which can not mean a person.....Jesus.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
So you say i had an imaginary ailment that i felt in myself since i was a child?, and it dissapeared when this person said that... suit yourself.

Also the OP was talking about Mark quote, in the name of Jesus they will cast out devils, this happens today, they will pray for the sick and they will heal, this happens today, i don't know about the others but if some happens today the others could too.

I have my reasons to believe prophecy is still active in the NT way that say that prophecy:

"They help people grow stronger in faith, and they give encouragement and comfort. 4 Those who speak in a different language are helping only themselves. But those who prophesy are helping the whole church."

I have seen some pastors/ministers show great discerment and revelation of things of the heart and spiritual issues they no way have the ability to know by themselves, and this was about things of myself not that they spoke to others.

But i'm not concerned in defending a theology or something, i would be concerned if people are cutting down the work of the Holy spirit though.

Also something i will defend with tooth and nail: being filled with the person of the Holy spirit is something people should seek and not everyone has, and the devil really doesn't want people to get this, it just work against him. And its very biblical. The same way the disciples and other people received the Holy spirit in the bible, christians can today.

So you have actually proven exactly my point as stated my friend.......
PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIVE NOT MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!

Consider 1 Corinthians 14:23
"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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