Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

Albion · Nov 30, 2020

Most Christian "Cessationists," I believe, maintain that the gifts gradually disappeared from the life of the Church, but not with the passing of the Apostles exactly.

"Continuationists" of course maintain that there must have been some rare or isolated people who were indeed gifted but who were overlooked by history, and that this was the case for at least a thousand years (until the revival of tongues-speaking in certain newer denominations.)

Dave L · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

The charismatic gifts were meant to validate the Apostles just as the miracles validated Moses, Jesus, Elijah, Elisha, and others. They ended when the Apostles finished their roles. History also bears this out including the absence of these miracles today.

All of the Charismatic gift phenomena had an Apostle(s) involved. Whether during the two outpourings. Or in passing out the gifts through the laying on of their hands. Scripture shows that Paul no longer healed in the epistles but placed his sick brothers on medicine.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Dave L said:
The charismatic gifts were meant to validate the Apostles just as the miracles validated Moses, Jesus, Elijah, Elisha, and others. They ended when the Apostles finished their roles. History also bears this out including the absence of these miracles today.

All of the Charismatic gift phenomena had an Apostle(s) involved. Whether during the two outpourings. Or in passing out the gifts through the laying on of their hands. Scripture shows that Paul no longer healed in the epistles but placed his sick brothers on medicine.

Agreed!

Albion · Nov 30, 2020

Dave L said:
The charismatic gifts were meant to validate the Apostles just as the miracles validated Moses, Jesus, Elijah, Elisha, and others.

You may say that they were meant to validate the Apostles IF we include the purpose for God having done that.

In other words, the gifts were given for the purpose of spreading the faith into a pagan world. It is understandable that after that was accomplished, the gifts, at least as a commonplace phenomenon, gradually disappeared.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Albion said:
Most Christian "Cessationists," I believe, maintain that the gifts gradually disappeared from the life of the Church, but not with the passing of the Apostles exactly.

"Continuationists" of course maintain that there must have been some rare or isolated people who were indeed gifted but who were overlooked by history, and that this was the case for at least a thousand years (until the revival of tongues-speaking in certain newer denominations.)

Agreed.

Those who practice those gifts today, do so because they WANT TO DO SO!

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Albion said:
You may say that they were meant to validate the Apostles IF we include the purpose for God having done that.

In other words, the gifts were given for the purpose of spreading the faith into a pagan world. It is understandable that after that was accomplished, the gifts, at least as a commonplace phenomenon, gradually disappeared.

I agree and would only add that IMPO, those "Sign Gifts" ended when John the last Apostle died.

When the Bible was completed the Word of God was said and there was then no need for any additions to it as NO ONE else was charged by the Lord Jesus personally to spread the gospel.

A_Thinker · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

A line of thought is ... that these particular gifts are expressed more ... in the periods where God is doing transformational work (i.e. the start of the Church, the opening of the Church to the Gentiles, the Last Days, etc.) ...

Dave L · Nov 30, 2020

Albion said:
You may say that they were meant to validate the Apostles IF we include the purpose for God having done that.

In other words, the gifts were given for the purpose of spreading the faith into a pagan world. It is understandable that after that was accomplished, the gifts, at least as a commonplace phenomenon, gradually disappeared.

Who doesn't know this? Were they merely a freak show attraction?

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

A_Thinker said:
A line of thought is ... that these particular gifts are expressed more ... in the periods where God is doing transformational work (i.e. the start of the Church, the opening of the Church to the Gentiles, the Last Days, etc.) ...

That is a thought, and I would not argue it. but are there Scriptures that would support that idea???

The Scriptures for the Last Days do not say anything about the Church taking over or transforming the world. They actually say that the church will not even be in existence in the world during the Last Days and the world will be falling apart and then Jesus will Come again.

A_Thinker · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
That is a thought, and I would not argue it. but are there Scriptures that would support that idea???

The Scriptures for the Last Days do not say anything about the Church taking over or transforming the world. They actually say that the church will not even be in existence in the world during the Last Days and the world will be falling apart and then Jesus will Come again.

The witness of the scriptures is that we see these displays of God's power MORE ... when HE is doing transformational work.

So ... when He brings the Hebrews out of Egypt, as He guides the Hebrews across the wilderness under Moses, ... as He brings the Hebrews into the Promised Land, ... as He incarnates the Messiah into the world, etc.

The scriptures of the Last Days do speak of God's power being displayed ...

Albion · Nov 30, 2020

It is understandable that after that was accomplished, the gifts, at least as a commonplace phenomenon, gradually disappeared.

..................................................................

Dave L said:
Who doesn't know this?

To judge by every discussion of the matter on these forums, just about every Pentecostal Christian rejects it.

And that has been my own experience when speaking with people who attend Charismatic or Pentecostal churches.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

A_Thinker said:
The witness of the scriptures is that we see these displays of God's power MORE ... when HE is doing transformational work.

So ... when He brings the Hebrews out of Egypt, as He guides the Hebrews across the wilderness under Moses, ... as He brings the Hebrews into the Promised Land, ... as He incarnates the Messiah into the world, etc.

The scriptures of the Last Days do speak of God's power being displayed ...

That is true. There is no question that the Power of God is active. However, that was not the focus of this thread. The point was that the Sign Gifts ended in the 1st century and not what God will do in the last days to demonstarate His power or what He did in the past in the same manner.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Albion said:
..................................................................

To judge by every discussion of the matter on these forums, just about every Pentecostal Christian rejects it.

And that has been my own experience when speaking with people who attend Charismatic or Pentecostal churches.

And that is my experience as well!!!!

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

Dave L said:
The charismatic gifts were meant to validate the Apostles just as the miracles validated Moses, Jesus, Elijah, Elisha, and others. They ended when the Apostles finished their roles. History also bears this out including the absence of these miracles today.

All of the Charismatic gift phenomena had an Apostle(s) involved. Whether during the two outpourings. Or in passing out the gifts through the laying on of their hands. Scripture shows that Paul no longer healed in the epistles but placed his sick brothers on medicine.

Correct.

The only time someone outside this group performed a healing was when the Lord told Ananias to heal Paul. There is no other healing apart from these in the early church. The Pentecostal/charismatic idea that healings took place constantly by Christians at large is not taught in the Bible.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2020

Albion said:
..................................................................

To judge by every discussion of the matter on these forums, just about every Pentecostal Christian rejects it.

And that has been my own experience when speaking with people who attend Charismatic or Pentecostal churches.

They don't know the Apostles were witnesses for Christ? At least give them that much credit.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
Correct.

The only time someone outside this group performed a healing was when the Lord told Ananias to heal Paul. There is no other healing apart from these in the early church. The Pentecostal/charismatic idea that healings took place constantly by Christians at large is not taught in the Bible.

History says Ananias was one of the original 70. So if true, it would explain this.

A_Thinker · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
That is true. There is no question that the Power of God is active. However, that was not the focus of this thread. The point was that the Sign Gifts ended in the 1st century and not what God will do in the last days to demonstarate His power or what He did in the past in the same manner.

Gotcha.

I have heard of reports of the miraculous gifts being active in the church's bringing of the gospel to new people groups ... where demonic opposition is also manifest ...

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Being filled with the Holy spirit is for today, the same as casting out devils in the name of Jesus, and the ability to discern them, since you can't cast out what you don't know its there, this i lived myself i don't have an 'interpretation' of the bible only, i lived through this myself, also i have seen how what someone would call word of science and prophecy in pastors/ministers. Or at least they were very sensitive to the Holy spirit.

Cessationist would go as far as saying all this is from the devil. Because they don't believe.

Dave L · Nov 30, 2020

A_Thinker said:
Gotcha.

I have heard of reports of the miraculous gifts being active in the church's bringing of the gospel to new people groups ... where demonic opposition is also manifest ...

It's all hearsay all the way back to the 2nd century. Zero first-hand accounts. Just hear-say. Paul no longer healed in the Epistles but used medicine instead.

Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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