Changing your mind about prophecy

Timtofly

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There is one time a 1,000 years is used figuratively and that is in Peter. It is so used for we see the phrase "a Day with the Lord IS AS a 1,000 years". clearly delineating it as symbolic.
The Day with the Lord is the symbolic phrase pointing to the literal time. Being literally with the Lord does not change this match up of symbolism and literal interpretation. Peter points out how God is longsuffering so a thousand years is equal to the length, or lengths of all history in 1000 year increments. Being here on earth not with the Lord is the literal side of the equation. Being with the Lord is the figurative future event not related to God's longsuffering. The fact it has been 1990 years does not define the scoffers. There were scoffers 500+ years after. Muhammad being one of them, no? Any time could have been the last days. Until the reality sinks in that 6000 years fits in with creation week, and the 4th commandment. Is it even coincidence that the end of the 4th 1000 years was the fullness of time. If those in the first century knew there was another 2000 years to go, would they have even stressed that point? Did they know but lied about it to make some "feel better"? I do not see God working to cater to human feelings. But God did know there would be 6 Days, and 6000 years, between two "Sundays". God created this reality for that express purpose.

Do people even know God started creation on a Sunday? The literal 8th Lord's Day the following Sunday God created the Garden of Eden, and instituted Adam and the church in Paradise. The battle of Jericho was from Sunday to Sunday. The week of the Cross was from Sunday to Sunday. The 7th Trumpet will be from Sunday to Sunday.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Ahh yeah, that's where we differ. I hold a similar view to @Spiritual Jew regarding Daniel's 70th week although I'm not sure I agree totally with him either.

I believe that the 70th week began with Christ's baptism and was halted at the midway point with his crucifixion. Rather than the first 3.5yrs of the apostles preaching only to the Jews being the second half of that week I believe the second half of the week begins when the dragon beckons the beast out of the sea which is why he's only got 42 months.

Why there's the best part of 2000 years between the 2 halves of the week I have no idea, this passage is one of those where my position has changed since joining this forum. Somebody put forward an extremely convincing argument why it was Christ that fulfilled Daniel's 70th week and after looking into it a bit further I decided that up to the crucifixion at least the interpretation had a great deal of merit. I have still to look for Scriptures to support my version of the belief because I've been incredibly busy these last couple of weeks or so, no lockdown here as far as I'm concerned.. At the moment it is just a personal belief with no basis other than gut feeling that it's correct. One thing I am sure of is there isn't a seven year tribulation nor a seven year peace treaty, the mark of the beast style vaccine is literally weeks away, not 3.5 years away.. Them last 42 months are almost upon us..
One thing I believe you should think about is why there would be a huge gap between the first 69 1/2 weeks and the last half week? I believe that does not make any sense. There is certainly nothing within the prophecy itself to suggest that the 70 weeks would not be consecutive.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Well then you reject the authority of Scripture and the rules of grammar that God created so we can understand each other I continuously post. and if I bore you- do not be a rude dude- instead hit the ignore button.
You are one of the most rude people on this entire forum and you're saying this to me? You have no idea of how you come across, obviously.

And your childish rants prove you do not know how to debate with too much Christian charity with one you disagree with.
Childish rants? That is something you are clearly familiar with, but I don't believe that is something you can say about me.

sorry but those are the rules of grammar in both English and Hebrew! Unless they are conpsiring against you and all those who hold that it is okay to skip a person to refer back to another person in violation of grammar.
I don't believe in YOUR grammar rules. I believe you have it wrong. It would point back to the last individual that was focused on, which is the Messiah. It is THE PEOPLE of the prince that have the focus in the second part of verse 26, not the prince himself.

Using your erroneous grammar rules, the following passage would be saying that it is the Lord whose coming is after the working of Satan rather than "that wicked"

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

In verse 9 it says "even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". The last individual mentioned before that is the Lord. So, your grammar rules would say that the Lord's coming is after the working of Satan. You need to re-evaluate your grammar rules.

And based on how I at least know how to go find Hebrew grammar and the tools to parse verbs and look at the construct of nouns and their meanings in the differing voices, moods, cases etc. shows me I am at least better at it than you! And that is not saying much for wither of us.
I just showed otherwise. Unless you think that the Lord's coming is after the working of Satan?

Well then I will ask you the same question four others who hold the same hypothesis as you have so far failed to answer but keep tap dancing around the answer.
The answer regarding the fulfillment of the new covenant is found within Hebrews 8-12. I'd quote it all here, but it would take up too much space. Just read it! I can't answer it any better than the author of Hebrews did.

So show me how Jesus fulfilled the terms of the new covenant as declared in Jer. 31.
It's all explained within Hebrews 8-12. If you can't find the answer there then you're just not paying attention.

also as you demand that the new covenant is only for 7 years- does that mean god is not saving Jews any more?
It was confirmed during that time. The new covenant will be in effect until the end of the age when Christ returns. God has been saving Jews and Gentiles ever since the new covenant was established almost 2,000 years ago.

Show me one Scripture that says the Covenant is fulfilled.
Read the book of Hebrews. Have you never read it? By fulfilled, I mean that it was fully established by Christ. Of course, people are still being saved under the new covenant today.

Yes Jesus blood is the foundation for the New Covenant. It is the price needed to enact the terms of the new covenant as spelled out in Jer. 31. So if it is fulfilled show when the terms of Jer. 31 were brought to a completion.
You seem to be talking in terms of when will the last person be saved under the new covenant. Is that what you mean? You're not being clear. If that's what you mean then the last person who will be saved under the new covenant is whoever is saved last before the return of Christ.

If something is in mediation with a mediator- then that covenant or contract has not been enacted yet.
Say what? Now, you seem to be saying that the new covenant isn't yet in effect. If so, that is clearly wrong. Is that what you're saying? You are just not being clear.

And God promised He would force the nation of Israel into the bond of the covenant!
What? You clearly don't have a clue about the new covenant. The new covenant has everything to do with salvation being brought to the world through the blood of Christ. The new covenant is not a corporate thing, it was established for the salvation of individuals throughout the world to be saved. That is what the new covenant is all about. It made the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete since those could not take away anyone's sins the way Christ's once for all sacrifice of the new covenant does.
 
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Timtofly

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Why there's the best part of 2000 years between the 2 halves of the week I have no idea, this passage is one of those where my position has changed since joining this forum. Somebody put forward an extremely convincing argument why it was Christ that fulfilled Daniel's 70th week and after looking into it a bit further I decided that up to the crucifixion at least the interpretation had a great deal of merit. I have still to look for Scriptures to support my version of the belief because I've been incredibly busy these last couple of weeks or so, no lockdown here as far as I'm concerned.. At the moment it is just a personal belief with no basis other than gut feeling that it's correct. One thing I am sure of is there isn't a seven year tribulation nor a seven year peace treaty, the mark of the beast style vaccine is literally weeks away, not 3.5 years away.. Them last 42 months are almost upon us..
Matthew 24:22

22 Indeed, if the length of this time had not been limited, no one would survive; but for the sake of those who have been chosen, its length will be limited.

What is limited or shortened? Satan's 42 months or the 3.5 years leading up to the 42 months?

Satan's time is not part of the Second Coming. And the Second Coming is not after Satan's 42 months. There is nothing in Revelation at all that states the Lamb has 3.5 years being on earth after the 42 months and after the battle of Armageddon. The final harvest is not after the 7th Trumpet.

The 6th Seal is the one and only Second Coming and God on the throne is coming to be seen on earth as well. This is the surprise event no one is looking for, nor may be prepared for. Well being prepared to endure Satan is enough preparation. I mean who prepares to endure Satan by going out and being a wicked sinner in the most debauchery one can think of? Perhaps one who thinks God will just automatically forgive them for being a foolish virgin who wants to enjoy sin one last time, and God won't mind?

Why the 6th Seal? The 3.5 years of Christ on earth get shorter the longer God tarries. Time can not be limited, if there is a concrete 3.5 years after the Second Coming happens. So God gives us 4 seals, we cannot see from earth the 5th seal. The 4th seal may start and last for weeks, but no guarantee of any time frame, and this seal does not have to end before the 5th and 6th can start. In fact the Second Coming can shorten the length of the 4th seal, or let it extend, while shortening the Trumpets and Thunders. The 6th seal is about the only judgment that can "slide" back in forth in any given event, and shorten the events on either side.

It is true Christ comes on a white horse from above at the battle of Armageddon. That is an unchangeable fact. It is not the event that begins the process. It is the event that ends the process. All have been taught that is the Second Coming. It is the only obvious white horse glorious event that climactically ends sin on earth. Does no one study whats brings about the 42 months prior to this? The Lamb and God on the throne have already been on earth.

No one even teaches about God and the Lamb being here. They are only taught an AC showing up. Did you know that Jesus taught not to expect an AC?

4 Yeshua replied: “Watch out! Don’t let anyone fool you!
5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray.

Why did the church go against this warning and build this huge sand castle to avoid? Many antichrist, and no where does any author say prepare for the AC. Paul never says AC. John never says AC. Daniel never says AC. They all say look and be prepared for the Second Coming and Jesus Christ the Messiah Himself.

Who are we not to be deceived by? Satan the Adversary and his FP. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.

7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.

A few things here. Only the revelation has to happen. Not all the things have to happen prior to the Second Coming. Most of that is describing intent and character, but two beings are in these verses. Satan and the FP no mention of an AC by Paul. Daniel 11:36-39

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt himself and consider himself greater than any god, and he will utter monstrous blasphemies against the God of gods. He will prosper only until the period of wrath is over, for what has been determined must take place.
37 He will show no respect for the gods his ancestors worshipped, or for the god women worship — he won’t show respect for any god, because he will consider himself greater than all of them.
38 But instead, he will honor the god of strongholds; with gold, silver, precious stones and other costly things he will honor a god unknown to his ancestors.
39 He (FP) will deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god (Pan Satan). He will confer honor on those he acknowledges, causing them to rule over many and distributing land as a reward.

Many interpret this as AC, but again 2 beings and only Satan and FP. This is not about a Messiah claiming to redeem people. This is a false prophet claiming to be a god. A religion making false claims. This is about a Greek king known as Antiochus Epiphanies and his buddy god, Satan. Known as Pan historically. Study pan, the peid piper, peter pan, and in the last year a pandemic.

Back to 2 Thessalonians 2

For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man (Satan pan) who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.

7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly (pan, working with the Greeks then the Romans), but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.
8 Then the one (FP) who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one (FP) whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids Torah comes (the FP), the Adversary (Satan pan) will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders.

The FP will be destroyed but brought back to life. Now Revelation 13.

3 One of the heads (FP) of the beast appeared to have received a fatal wound, but its fatal wound was healed, and the whole earth followed after the beast in amazement.
4 They worshipped the dragon (Satan pan), because he had given his authority to the beast (FP); and they worshipped the beast, saying,

“Who is like the beast?
Who can fight against it?”

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. It had two horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. (Satan pan)

What is the 4th Seal? Revelation 6:7-8

7 When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!”
8 I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Sh’ol followed behind him. They were given authority to kill one-quarter of the world by war, by famine, by plagues and with the wild animals of the earth.

Death (with a "D") is introduced to the world. Will Satan be revealed just prior to the 6th seal? How about both the FP and Satan, and the FP is destroyed per Paul in the 6th Seal? Sometime during the Trumpets and Thunders the FP is brought back as a counter move like in Egypt the false priest mirrored the miracles of Moses. 2019 the year that launched the pandemic on the earth. 1 will be taken 1 will be left. It is not about the rapture, but death. At the start covid19 seemingly struck at randomn taken 1 person in a "couple" and leaving the other behind. Yes it got out of hand and then many relatives were all taken at once. A conqueror going forth to conquer the whole world. Yet again in the 4th seal plague is still a major player, along with famine, a disruption in the food chain, war, and introducing wild animals now programmed to attack humanity. But enough about Death.

If you follow the chronology of Revelation 13, the last beast to be introduced is the image of the FP, and God allows Satan to "bring it to life". Satan breaths his "son" to life in outright defiance of God breathing life into God's sons on the 6th Day. The last thing on Satan's to do list to be God. Then Satan will present his Messiah to the World. Science fiction has programmed us for this moment. Robots seving humanity so humans can stop working.

So the 6th seal is about the surprise entrance of God in the midst of turmoil where even Satan and the FP may be introduced because Death has been unleashed onto the world. The longer God holds off the shorter the Trumpets and Thunders. Once the 4th Seal opens, the Second Coming will shorten the period or Death will reign longer and the Trumpets and Thunders will be even shorter. Will people rethink the Second Coming if Satan and the FP are revealed in the 4th seal? I will not hold my breath. Only the Second Coming will change people's minds. Will there be many virgins still waiting for the AC at the 7th Trumpet?
 
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Timtofly

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You've shifted the topic here. You said the 144k have no choice in who they are. I questioned you about that. Would you mind replying to my response in post #170?

Honestly? There is no question in the whole post.

You accused me falsely, and then backed up your accusation with a few points.

I just ignored the post, until now, because you asked me to explain myself. I addressed the 7 years, because like you, I thought that was a bad interpretation.

This is probably the worst thing you can say about them. Look carefully at the description of them:

Revelation 14:4
"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."

They follow him just like Jesus said in the gospels, "Follow me". They are honest-to-God followers of Jesus who will do whatever he wants them to do, even if it means forsaking family, friends, reputation, the security that comes with working for a paycheck, and their own lives. They leave it all behind to follow him, just like he taught in the gospels (Luke 14:33).

Remember, the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 19:10). Prophecy has no meaning without reference back to Jesus and his teachings. He said we must forsake everything to follow him. These 144k do just that, and as a result they are God's elite leaders during this time. Up to this point, no church, government, or group can say they are God's kingdom here on Earth, and yet this group of people, organized by Jesus himself through his Holy Spirit will be the Kingdom of Heaven on earth for the final 7 years.

They followed the Lamb because God changed them. Are you a Calvinist or accept any of their teachings? I am not deflecting to them accept to say, they believe the same way about themselves. They have no choice in being Redeemed. YES, to a carnal mind, that seems hideous. That is even abhorant to God and those who trust in God for their redemption. Do you know that some even claim we do not have free will? That is also hideous to a carnal mind, much more to God who actually created us. I am not even accusing you of being carnally minded. We all are; that is the point. How do carnally minded people serve and follow Jesus as a disciple? They stop using their carnal mind for one thing. To a follower and disciple of Christ, NOT HAVING A CHOICE, is a very very very good thing. One has to crucify the flesh hourly to get to the point, NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE!!!

Is that any clearer?

Did the original 12 disciples have a choice in being a disciple? I say yes, because they could have walked away. In fact, Judas did walk away. Peter tried to walk away, but Jesus gave Peter another chance to choose to follow Him. Not one of them were forced to follow Jesus and on Pentecost God did give them the power of the Holy Spirit to cement their own will to do the Will of God.

Contrast that to being given the name of God on their foreheads.

"Then I looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Tziyon; and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

What verse claims they had a choice?

What verse claims they prayed earnestly to be chosen by God?

What verse claims they believed in God?

What verse claims they forsook all and followed Jesus?

All that is only guess work. They never even accepted the Atonement and asked God to save them. If so they would have been glorified and in Paradise at that point. They are not the church. They are sealed before the 7th Seal is opened. If any thing, God changed their sinful bodies of Adam's flesh and blood and gave them a permanent, incorruptible body, that could never die. They were not allowed to think for themselves,and they are God's permanent disciples forever. Revelation 7:2-3

2 I saw another angel coming up from the east with a seal from the living God, and he shouted to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea,
3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!”

It was an angel that sealed every last one of them, and none of them had any idea God would change them and make them His eternal servants.

Some would find that outright barbaric of God. Especially because now they have to go across the earth sending living human beings to eternal life or eternal damnation. Literally killing them in the final harvest. The figurative phrase "final harvest" sounds much nicer than the literal task these servants of God have to carry out. Since they are unsaved male virgins spending hours in video games day in and day out, was that pre-programming?

God can even use the worst of what Satan offers to humans to turn their hearts and minds away from God. I wonder if Satan saw that scenario coming to bite him in the back?

The majority of the games these teens are playing today are heavily spiritual in nature. Fighting and killing demons, angels, and all sorts of spiritual warfare. They should be totally prepared to carry out the final harvest literally, with nothing to stand in their way.
 
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BABerean2

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And lack of Scripture to prove me wrong, means that is your opinion, not Scripture.

“There will be no more delay; on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

Do you refute God's Word that says: "the days (plural) of the sound from the seventh angel (trumpet)."?

It is a week of days. Daniel 9:27

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The week is cut in half again in the book of Revelation 13. You tell me why Satan's 42 months is not the event that cuts in half the sounding of the 7th Trumpet? It is clear to see that Revelation 13 cuts into the narrative of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd woe of Satan coming to earth to start a 42 month period. It is also the completion of the hidden plan of God. The 7th Trumpet is completion. There is not an 8th Trumpet mentioned. Daniel says the interruption is the abomination of desolation. It splits a 7 year period. It splits a 7 day week of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Although it is 8 days, because it starts on a Sunday like the Palm Sunday of the first century. The Second Coming ends with the 7th Trumpet.


(KJV+) ButG235 inG1722 theG3588 daysG2250 of theG3588 voiceG5456 of theG3588 seventhG1442 angel,G32 whenG3752 he shall beginG3195 to sound,G4537 theG3588 mysteryG3466 of GodG2316 should be finished,G5055 asG5613 he hath declaredG2097 to hisG1438 servantsG1401 theG3588 prophets.G4396


G2250
hēmera

hay-mer'-ah

Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
Total KJV occurrences: 389


.
 
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Timtofly

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One thing I believe you should think about is why there would be a huge gap between the first 69 1/2 weeks and the last half week? I believe that does not make any sense. There is certainly nothing within the prophecy itself to suggest that the 70 weeks would not be consecutive.
The Lamb had 7 years to carry out an earthly ministry. It is now time to finish what was started 1990 years ago.

God is longsuffering. Sometimes that does not make sense, yes?
 
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Timtofly

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(KJV+) ButG235 inG1722 theG3588 daysG2250 of theG3588 voiceG5456 of theG3588 seventhG1442 angel,G32 whenG3752 he shall beginG3195 to sound,G4537 theG3588 mysteryG3466 of GodG2316 should be finished,G5055 asG5613 he hath declaredG2097 to hisG1438 servantsG1401 theG3588 prophets.G4396


G2250
hēmera

hay-mer'-ah

Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
Total KJV occurrences: 389
Is your point it should be the whole 24 hours? Do you get to pick if it last for 24 hours, 8 days, or 3.5 years? It is not a single second blast either way.
 
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John Helpher

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What verse claims they had a choice?

The follow him withersoever he goeth. There would be no point in saying they follow him, let alone that they follow him anywhere, if they don't have any choice in the matter.
 
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Douggg

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So now you are saying the false prophet will be a high priest of the reinstituted Jewish system as well?

They also rejected Jesus as Messiah! But that one verse does nothing to prove your hypothesis that antichrist must be crowned king of Israel by the high priest/false prophet!
I did not say anything about the false prophet being a high priest.

Did John the Baptist come with the same sort of spirit of Elijah (the prophet) had and when he baptized Jesus and the dove lite on Jesus ?

Was John the Baptist - the high priest ?

So why would you think the false prophet has to be a high priest?
 
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Timtofly

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The follow him withersoever he goeth. There would be no point in saying they follow him, let alone that they follow him anywhere, if they don't have any choice in the matter.
They follow because they cannot do anything else. Does you Car have a choice where it's going, or does it have to follow you because it chooses to? The word followed was used because that is the only action they could do.

So how would you describe what they did if they went everywhere with Jesus without a choice? If they are all of one mind, and that was the mind of Christ, whatever Christ did, they would mirror that action.
 
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John Helpher

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So how would you describe what they did if they went everywhere with Jesus without a choice?

But, they do have a choice, like all people have choice. I guess I just feel genuinely confused as to why you'd say these people have no choice when the description of them is so contrary to that. These people put Jesus first in everything. To me, that is really amazing and inspiring; something that we all should aspire to. But to you, it is some mechanical thing that they have no choice in. It's like your interpretation sucks all the joy and beauty out of what it means to put Jesus first.
 
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jgr

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I think you don't know what you're saying. Just before you make this comment, you say this:



Remember, the issue is what is most important when it comes to interpreting prophecy; that Jesus is the ultimate source, or predicting the future. You're saying it depends on the context, which suggests you believe there are some contexts where predicting the future is more important than Jesus being the ultimate source of that prophecy.

This belief that there are times when Jesus and his teachings are less important than what the prophecy may say about the future is fairly indicative of how most people treat the teachings of Jesus in general; they are mostly optional, which is a shame because Jesus really is the ultimate focus of all prophecy.

Any time when Jesus' teachings are set aside, the interpretation will be skewed and inaccurate.

Amen brother.

Revelation 19
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The carnalized racialized dispensational mind is incapable of recognizing that truth, and that the entirety of Scripture is about Him.

Not futurized fantasies and fallacies about Jews and Israel and antichrist and rapture and all other modernist manifestations of interpretation by hallucination.

Thanks for your insights.
 
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Douggg

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You've shifted the topic here. You said the 144k have no choice in who they are. I questioned you about that. Would you mind replying to my response in post #170?
John, I have not read all of the back and forth discussion, but none of us are self created - in order to choose who our parents are. We have no choice in that sense.

Once into this world, we make choices all the time, though.

Regarding the 144000 following Jesus where-ever he goes. I think that is being physically present with Jesus - to whatever location Jesus physically moves to.

There is also following Jesus in the sense you are speaking of, as how we act - with Jesus being the Truth, the Life, the Way.

There is also a sense of no choice - in that there is no true alternative to Jesus, as no other name is given to man by which man can be saved. No choice in that sense is not intended to be a negative, because God is all knowing and has determined the means, because He loves us.
 
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Douggg

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The carnalized racialized dispensational mind is incapable of recognizing that truth, and that the entirety of Scripture is about Him.

Not futurized fantasies and fallacies about Jews and Israel and antichrist and rapture and all other modernist manifestations of interpretation by hallucination.
jgr, you are being over-dramatic. You are not the only one though. There is the other side as well.
 
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Douggg

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I don't need to work on any charts Doug and neither do you, you need to focus on studying the Word of God as we are commanded to and getting some sound Bible teaching along with it.
The reason you need to work on a timeline chart of the end times is that a chart is the best tool for organizing and communicating to others our thoughts in a non-fragmented form.

What you should do is ask from each of those teachers you are listening to is for them to provide you with a timeline chart of the major end times events.

To make your own chart, you may have to educate yourself with a graphics/picture program like
Corel Paintshop Pro, how to use it, and be creative with it.
 
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Douggg

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I see that, and I appreciate it. It seems we have some important issues in common and I think that's fantastic. I believe there is a final, 7 year period and I'll explain why, though I think the most important thing is that we agree on a 3.5 year period of Great Tribulation which we need to prepare for.



I must admit that I don't really understand the seals very well. I suspect they are a kind of broad overview of prophecy throughout history. I generally shy away from making pronouncements about them as they are really quite vague in terms of timeline and specific events.

However, there are other parts of prophecy which really are quite specific concerning timelines and events. For example, the final 7 year period comes from several references in Daniel which also correspond to references in the Revelation. One of the most important is Daniel 9:24-27. There's A LOT of information packed in to these 4 verses, but in particular verse 27 says, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

In Jewish prophetic vernacular, A year is split into 12, 30 day cycles. 7 years would be 2,520 days. Half of that would be 1,260 days. Also, a "week" can mean a period of 7 days or 7 years. Often it is only context which denotes the difference between the two and sometimes there is no context; we just have to wait and see which of the two it is. In this case, we've got plenty of context to illustrate that this usage is for 7 years rather than 7 days.

In the middle of this 7 year period, the AC causes the sacrifices to cease and through abominations makes it desolate. This is a reference to the 3rd temple. Up to now, there have been two temples, the first built by David/Solomon which was destroyed and then rebuilt. The second was the temple in Jesus' day which was later destroyed by the Romans. Since that time there has been no other temple, but, sacrifices can only be made in the temple which means, in order for the sacrifices to cease, there must be a temple in which the sacrifices are happening.

This reference to an "agreement" for one week (i.e. 7 years) has a double meaning. For the Jews, their emphasis is still on a physical building; they only want their temple. The temple is the epitome of their religious organization. It is all important to them. It is almost certain that they will end up making an agreement with the AntiChrist to rebuild the temple, which, consequently, is what will help add to the AC's popularity; peace in the middle east is a big deal. Anyone who manages to accomplish this will almost certainly be seen as a powerful, worthy leader. Certainly, the Jews will probably view this person as their long awaited messiah as a result, especially since the Revelation describes the Beast and his False Prophet as having the ability to call down fire from heaven and perform various "miracles", (although Paul refers to these as lying signs and wonders).

On the other hand, the prophecy starts by referring to the Messiah; it is the only place in the entire OT where the word "Messiah" is used so it's pretty clearly referring to Jesus. But, prophecy can sometimes have more than one meaning. Consider Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Here is a reference to the 42 months you mentioned, but it says a city will be trod under foot. For us Christians, we know what this actually refers to the body of Christ who are his temple rather than some physical location, and yet, also the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem will be defiled, as well; there is a double meaning.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to rebuild the physical temple, Jesus will make an agreement with his temple, the 144k by supernaturally communicating with them to organize them into 12 tribes for the final 7 years, of which, half way through, the AC will renege on his agreement and somehow profane the physical temple. However, the real abomination here will be his war against the saints.

The first 3.5 years will be a time of fake peace. Daniel refers to this as a time when the AC will "cause craft to prosper" (Daniel 8:25). The 7 trumpets of the Great Tribulation are pretty intense; there will be world wide destruction; it makes no sense that anyone would be able to "cause craft to prosper" in such disastrous times. This verse must be referring to a time just before the disasters strike.

Paul also references this when he says, " the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3).

There are also several other references in Daniel which refer to this 7 year period. Here are some of them:

Daniel 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


If we start with a 7 year period of 2,520 days and subtract the number referenced here, we arrive at a figure of 220 days. Presumably this is the time required to literally rebuild the temple.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

3.5 years is 1,260 days, yet this verse refers to a period of 1,290 days. Presumably this 30 day discrepancy is the length of time the AC will use to do whatever it is he does to profane the temple in some blasphemous way, as the verse refers to "setting up".

And, if you're interested, there is one other verse from Daniel 12:12 which suggests when the period of God's wrath will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet (or end of the 1260 days).

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Remember how the previous verse referred to 1,290 days? Here, the prophecy expects us to subtract that number from a new number, 1335, which is significant because it extends beyond the 7 year period we've been dealing with up to this point. If you do that, you get a period of 45 days.

It is almost certain that this 45 day period is the length of time during which two, simultaneous events will happen; the marriage supper of the Lamb up in "New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven" at the 7th trumpet, and the wrath of God being "poured out" on a spiritually "desolate" world below. Remember those words from Daniel 9:27?

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now as this post is already probably tldr. :ahem:
John, you need to work on an endtimes timeline chart. You are talking about timeframes and events. A timeline chart is like a roadmap.

Remember how the previous verse referred to 1,290 days? Here, the prophecy expects us to subtract that number from a new number, 1335, which is significant because it extends beyond the 7 year period we've been dealing with up to this point. If you do that, you get a period of 45 days.

Not extending beyond the 7 years, but fits within the 7 years. I show the 1290 days and the 1335 days and the 45 days on my chart at the bottom.

I keep trying to inform you guys that Ezekiel 39 provides the infallible end times framework. My chart is based on that framework, but with everything filled in.

upload_2020-11-30_4-19-28.jpeg


upload_2020-11-30_4-20-9.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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The pre-trib theory is that Jesus will rapture up his elect (i.e. the second coming of Jesus) before the Great Tribulation, and almost always, supporters of this theory will argue this is because God wants to spare us from the suffering that will accompany so much tribulation; it is an escape.
pre-trib is a misnomer for pre-70th week. The Great Tribulation does not begin until the middle part of that week.

Yes, the rapture is an escape, because that is one of the words Jesus used.

Luke21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I believe that is what the Revelation describes when it refers to those who overcome the Beast by not loving their lives unto the death. We will be a witness to the world in those last days. It is not consistent with the spirit of Jesus' teachings that God would take all his best people out of the world just when the world will need them most.
Yes, there will be the saints who overcome the Beast, not taking his number, his name, nor mark of his name - during the Great Tribulation, because it says so in Revelation.

But that does not take away from avoiding having to go through the Great Tribulation to begin with, by the rapture - "to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
 
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WonbyOneanddone

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The OT doesn't say he will only come once. It just predicts his coming; at that time there was no issue about whether it would be once or twice or whatever. During his ministry, he talked extensively about how he'd go away and then return again.
Which was my point. The OT does not specify but Christ did.

I dunno why it's so hard to communicate what I'm trying to say.
 
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Sorry, but would you mind posting the OT prophecy which describes his second coming?
There are prophesies that state Jesus will come and set up worldly justice and order, is there not?

This is part of why Jews say they reject Jesus as Messiah. There is still work to be done here.
 
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