Studying the Trinity

sparow

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1 John 5:7
King James Version
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Of the Bibles I have only KJV and the NKJV say the three are one; most Bibles say: 1 John 5:7 (ASV)
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 5:8-9 (ASV)
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for the witness of God is this, that he hath borne witness concerning his Son.

It is the witness or testimony that is singular; God is plural, at least two. possibly without number.
 
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Devin Hammond

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Of the Bibles I have only KJV and the NKJV say the three are one; most Bibles say: 1 John 5:7 (ASV)
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 5:8-9 (ASV)
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for the witness of God is this, that he hath borne witness concerning his Son.

It is the witness or testimony that is singular; God is plural, at least two. possibly without number.

Yeah I studied that issue once but it’s been a long time. I think it’s because the KJV used a different text in translation. I’ve heard that the other texts are corrupted.

edit: Textus Receptus - Wikipedia
 
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hedrick

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Of the Bibles I have only KJV and the NKJV say the three are one; most Bibles say: 1 John 5:7 (ASV)
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 5:8-9 (ASV)
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for the witness of God is this, that he hath borne witness concerning his Son.

It is the witness or testimony that is singular; God is plural, at least two. possibly without number.
Please don't use this passage. It wasn't in the original text. Nor was it the basis for the discussions when the doctrine was created.
 
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chad kincham

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Who is the Son of God but God and part of the Trinity? I don’t think that you are understanding what Son of God means and his identity as Son. Claiming to be the Son of God is the same as claiming to be God. John 10:30-36

You didn’t read my first post, apparently.

I said it’s clear that Jesus is God the Logos, and the trinity is a fact, but scripture only requires faith that Jesus is Gods son to be saved.

When Jesus asked Peter who he thought Jesus was, he said the Messiah, the SON of God - and Jesus commended him for it.
 
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Devin Hammond

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You didn’t read my first post, apparently.

I said it’s clear that Jesus is God the Logos, and the trinity is a fact, but scripture only requires faith that Jesus is Gods son to be saved.

When Jesus asked Peter who he thought Jesus was, he said the Messiah, the SON of God - and Jesus commended him for it.

Evidently you didn’t understand my previous post.
 
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chad kincham

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But it does matter how we habitually think of Christ; our spiritual health depends in great measure on whether or not our vision of him is adequate. For to know Christ is to know his benefits, how much he has to give us as messenger, mediator and personal embodiment of the saving grace of God.

A deficient vision of Christ himself--a lack of awareness of who he really is, means one's knowledge of his benefits will necessarily be deficient also. For the Biblical character of Christ as messenger, mediator and personal embodiment of the saving grace of God all have their concern with Christ as the answer to the questions which the Bible itself teaches us to consider about our relationship with God--the reality of divine holiness and our sin. The further away we are in our minds from these characteristics of Christ and, therefore, from these questions, the less knowledge of the real Christ and the real God we can have.

What is stated and presented of Christ is tied to what is stated and presented in New Testament theology, which is the Father's own witness through the Spirit to the Son. There is no real Jesus save the Jesus of that theology. The less we know about Christ, the more likely the question arises whether our response to the Jesus of whom we have inadequate ideas can really be viewed as Christian faith.

So an inadequate vision of Christ is not without personal spiritual consequences.
.

Jesus.clearly says belief in Gods son is required for salvation - John 3. Nowhere there does He require faith that He is God, to be saved.

It’s ridiculous to go beyond what Jesus Himself said is necessary to believe.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God So Loved the World

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Nowhere there did Jesus say we must believe He is God to be saved.

Or here:

1john 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the SON to be the Saviour of the world.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus.clearly says belief in Gods son is required for salvation - John 3. Nowhere there does He require faith that He is God, to be saved.
That is true.

But our spiritual health depends on how we habitually think of Christ, how we appropriate him.
An inadequate view of Christ can diminish our spiritual health.
.
 
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disciple Clint

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It’s a pretty elementary church teaching but it is also a great mystery.

I’ve heard it compared to ice, water, and steam. All one and yet separate.

The Trinity is a basic core doctrine of the Church and to deny the Trinity is considered a heresy.

The majority of Christian Churches teach the doctrine of the Trinity.

You may also want to research quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the Trinity by doing a google search.
I have also heard it compared to ice water and steam but I would not recommend using that example since it is modalism aka sabellianism
 
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GooFYone

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Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I'm so glad to be back!

Recently I've began to study the Trinity. Just to give some background: I grew up in a movement that did not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity. So recently, I began to explore this doctrine, as what I was taught didn't make a ton of sense to me haha. And I must say, I'm so glad that I decided to look into it for myself.

I've purchased a couple of books on the subject and began reading them. I also started watching some videos and looking at other online resources. It's such an amazing thing to look at, but also difficult to wrap one's head around at the same time.

I completely understand the fact that it's difficult for our finite minds to grasp our infinite God. With that being said, I wanted to reach out and see if any of you have any resources or analogies on this subject that help you?

Thank-you all in advance for your help. This is not meant to stir up any types of arguments, I'm not interested in that at all. Blessings!
That is such great news that you don’t want to stir up arguments.

God is the Father. Jesus is Gods spoken word. The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit.
 
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Tsquared

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Early Trinitarian Quotes
by Matt Slick

There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priestJesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christianapologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.

Thank-you for supplying this additional information, Devin! It is very neat to see that this doctrine was around early on through these quotes! Yes, I too have heard people trying to say that it didn't come about until Nicea; so this is nice evidence to have! Blessings to you.
 
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Tsquared

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One of the first things to understand is that basically all analogies are going to be problematic. It's why trying to say "The Trinity is like..." usually ends up just causing more confusion than bringing clarity.

God as Trinity isn't like anything with which we have in our experience. There's simply nothing like God.

So when we say that there are three Divine Persons, each fully and equally God--the one and same God--it describes something which, on some level, we simply can't relate to on the basis of our own experiences outside of God's own self-revelation of Himself.

Two things are being asserted as fundamentally true:

1. There is only one God.
2. There are three Persons or Hypostases.

That word hypostasis (plural hypostases) is a complicated one. It's a Greek word that can be translated as "subsistence". But what it is really trying to capture is the idea of meaningful existence, something discrete and real. In regard to the Trinity it means that the Father is really the Father, that's Who He is; distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. "Father" isn't just a face, or a mask God wears, instead there really is this One who is Father, and He is Father because He is the Father of the Son. It is therefore relational, He is the Father of the Son, that is very real, eternally real. In the same way that the Son, distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, really exists as the Son of the Father, the only-begotten of the Father, begotten of the Father from all eternity.

So that there is one God, the Father. And the Father eternally begets the Son, and the Son as the eternally-begotten of the Father is God, just as the Father is God. So that the Father and the Son are the same God.

The Son is God because the Father is God. Thus we speak of the Son's eternal generation from the Father, as God of God, and therefore He is homoousios (of-Same-Being) with the Father. The Father's Being, His Essence, His Eternal IS-ness as the one and only God is also the Being, Essence, and Eternal IS-ness of the Son. Thus the Son is God, the one and only God, even as the Father is God, the one and only God.

Likewise, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father [and the Son], and is therefore God, in just the same way the Father and the Son are God. The one and only God.

So that there is the Father, unbegotten and unproceeding.
The Son, only-begotten of the Father.
The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father [and the Son].

So that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three Divine Persons and Hypostases, of one undivided Being and Essence. One God, Three Persons.

Helpful resources:

The Nicene Creed
The Nicene Creed

The Athanasian Creed aka The Quicumque Vult
Quicumque

Perhaps somewhat more obscure, but a local synod held in Toledo in the 7th century produced a rather fantastic statement of Trinitarian faith:
COUNCIL OF TOLEDO XI 675 – Creed of Faith

-CryptoLutheran

This has been so helpful! Thank-you for posting this information and sharing your understanding of the Trinity with me. What you say is so true, I'm beginning to see how analogies fall short in explaining the Trinity 100% accurately. Blessings!
 
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Tsquared

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Thank-you to everyone who has helped me thus far! I really do appreciate you all taking the time to share your views and resources with me! I have went ahead and ordered some of the books that were mentioned throughout the thread. I am thankful that I am beginning to understand this key doctrine of the church. Although I was taught to believe that the Trinity was not Biblical, I do see that it is certainly supported throughout the Scriptures; I am thankful that the Holy Spirit has began revealing this to me!

Again, my intention was never to stir up any debate among anyone, I am sincerely just trying to better grasp the doctrine of the Trinity. Blessings to each of you who took time out of your day to respond.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hello Everyone, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I'm so glad to be back!

Recently I've began to study the Trinity. Just to give some background: I grew up in a movement that did not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity. So recently, I began to explore this doctrine, as what I was taught didn't make a ton of sense to me haha. And I must say, I'm so glad that I decided to look into it for myself.

I've purchased a couple of books on the subject and began reading them. I also started watching some videos and looking at other online resources. It's such an amazing thing to look at, but also difficult to wrap one's head around at the same time.

I completely understand the fact that it's difficult for our finite minds to grasp our infinite God. With that being said, I wanted to reach out and see if any of you have any resources or analogies on this subject that help you?

Thank-you all in advance for your help. This is not meant to stir up any types of arguments, I'm not interested in that at all. Blessings!
I find the greatest resource God gave on this subject is each other.

Jesus prayed to the Father (John 17) saying may they be one as we are, I in you and you in me.
 
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chad kincham

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Thank-you for providing this information, I appreciate it! As I mentioned in the original post, the movement I grew up in taught something more like Modalism, so I am starting to look into this for myself. I am beginning to understand it more, and for that I am so thankful. Have a blessed day!

The modalist Jesus on the cross: Myself, myself, why have I forsaken me?
 
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disciple Clint

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The modalist Jesus on the cross: Myself, myself, why have I forsaken me?
are you familiar with Psalm 22?
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46, KJV). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It is difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that Jesus was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As God’s own Son—holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient—God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him. Why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" | GotQuestions.org
 
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The Liturgist

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The Athanasian Creed is actually used in some Protestant Churches. Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed Churches are among some of the Churches who use it. Of coarse it is also used in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. So it is accepted by the majority of Christians.

The Eastern Orthodox include a modified version of it, with the filioque omitted, as an appendix to various prayerbooks; in the English language the Jordanville Psalter (A Psalter for Prayer, Holy Trinity Monastery Press, Jordanville, New York) includes this version. The Orthodox do not however recite it liturgically.
 
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The Liturgist

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<pushes glass up on nose to look smart> Orthodox don't use either the Apostles or Athanasian creeds. The Apostles Creed was mainly used as a baptismal creed in Rome and we use the Nicene Creed without the "filioque", the phrase that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son". The problem with the Athanasian creed is that uses the "filioque", specifically it states, "The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten;"

There is an Orthodox version of the Athanasian creed in the Jordanville Psalter, immediately following the Preface. You can get this Psalter on Kindle for relatively little money by the standards of Orthodox prayer books, and it is particularly well regarded, as it is the highly chant-able Coverdale Psalter (used in Anglican worship even after the completion of the KJV), modified to follow the Septuagint. It is especially popular in Slavonic and Antiochian churches, and the OCA (Greek churches tend to like the Boston Psalter from Holy Transfiguration Monastery).

However it is true that the Athanasian Creed is not recited liturgically in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Although for that matter, neither is the Book of Revelations (although the latter is read extra-liturgically on Mount Athos on Holy Saturday, and the Coptic Orthodox do read the Apocalypse liturgically in between the Holy Saturday and Paschal Vigil services).

As far as the Apostle’s Creed is concerned, I’ve never met any Orthodox theologian familiar with it who was opposed to it as being somehow unorthodox; rather it is just simply not a part of the received liturgical patrimony of the Eastern churches, whereas it is a part of the western liturgical heritage.
 
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GooFYone

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are you familiar with Psalm 22?
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46, KJV). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It is difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that Jesus was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As God’s own Son—holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient—God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him. Why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" | GotQuestions.org
It is quite easy to understand in Gods understanding my friend. God bless.
Jesus(Gods Word) became sin, so God forsakes sin. God becomes all.

God does not require more, because God isn’t more. God is all!
 
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