Even IF Christ rose again. . . So what?

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
That doesn't make sense, we are going to get a new body, and God it says is going to wipe our tears, why we are goint to cry if our heart and mind died you are saying the heart and mind is going to be ressurected?, the bible talks about resurrecting bodies not souls.

There are records of our lives being kept in heaven ..... we will be restored as ourselves .... less the knowledge of sin and less our sin nature.

sure we are going to cry for a while .... many of our loved ones won't be there, friends and/or family etc.

An analogy .... kindred to a computer hard drive .... we will be restored as ourselves.

Remember Christ .... after His resurrection .... His mind was restored .... and He also stated He had flesh and bones.

Luke 24:39

39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

You still don't get it ...... the soul/a soul is the complete person. A soul is NOT something you possess .... a soul is who you are ..... a person.

Are you reading anything I'm posting?

NBB · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Where does it say the wicked are given eternal life? Immortality is only given to the saved .... not the lost.

I do not know this "god" who tortures people .... is it OK to torture people? If it's ok for God/Jesus then it's ok for us .... and we instinctively know torture is not ok.

Proverbs 14:11

The house of the wicked will be destroyed,
But the tent of the upright will flourish.

Psalm 94:23

He has brought back their wickedness upon them
And will destroy them in their evil;
The Lord our God will destroy them.

Psalm 92:7

That when the wicked sprouted up like grass
And all who did iniquity flourished,
It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.

Psalm 92:7

That when the wicked sprouted up like grass
And all who did iniquity flourished,
It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.

Psalm 92:7

That when the wicked sprouted up like grass
And all who did iniquity flourished,
It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.

Romans 9:22

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The wicked will be destroyed in the very end .... necessary to eradicate sin.

In any case angels are immortal too, until IF something destroys them. You could say you can be immortal and be destroyed

eleos1954 said:
There are records of our lives being kept in heaven ..... we will be restored as ourselves .... less the knowledge of sin and less our sin nature.

sure we are going to cry for a while .... many of our loved ones won't be there, friends and/or family etc.

An analogy .... kindred to a computer hard drive .... we will be restored as ourselves.

Remember Christ .... after His resurrection .... His mind was restored .... and He also stated He had flesh and bones.

Luke 24:39

39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

You still don't get it ...... the soul/a soul is the complete person. A soul is NOT something you possess .... a soul is who you are ..... a person.

Are you reading anything I'm posting?

Jesus went down to hell to preach or something when he was dead.
I'm reading your post but i disagree with you obviously. And i agree our soul is our person.
My only point with discussing with you is that you say we don't have anything immortal about us, and we have an spirit and soul which cannot die in my view. At least by itself, And this is not our body.
But if you want to appear a bit irritated by my posts or something and not want to have a polite conversation, i say this long exchange was enough and i'm out.

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
That doesn't make sense, we are going to get a new body, and God it says is going to wipe our tears, why we are goint to cry if our heart and mind died you are saying the heart and mind is going to be ressurected?, the bible talks about resurrecting bodies not souls.

we do get new bodies .... heavenly ones .... glorified .... and our mind/heart will be restored from the records stored in heaven

yes we will cry .... many of our loved ones, friends/family will not be there ... and that will be a very sad time

Clare73 · Nov 29, 2020

Duplicate post

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
In any case angels are immortal too, until IF something destroys them. You could say you can be immortal and be destroyed

Jesus went down to hell to preach or something when he was dead.
I'm reading your post but i disagree with you obviously. And i agree our soul is our person.
My only point with discussing with you is that you say we don't have anything immortal about us, and we have an spirit and soul which cannot die in my view. At least by itself, And this is not our body.
But if you want to appear a bit irritated by my posts or something and not want to have a polite conversation, i say this long exchange was enough and i'm out.

In any case angels are immortal too

God will destroy satan and the fallen angels in the very end ... has to .... else sin still exists ... even if it's in hell.

How do people, such as yourself sleep at night hearing the screams of all these people God is supposedly tormenting, continuous burning in "hell"?

We disagree on things ... I'm not irritated at all .... are you?

NBB · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
God will destroy satan and the fallen angels in the very end ... has to .... else sin still exists ... even if it's in hell.

How do people, such as yourself sleep at night hearing the screams of all these people God is supposedly tormenting, continuous burning in "hell"?

We disagree on things ... I'm not irritated at all .... are you?

i don't actually know how is hell or what is going to happen, the bible talks about 'the smoke of their torment is giong up forever and ever' that sounds pretty bad, but i can't say what is going to be.

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
i don't actually know how is hell or what is going to happen, the bible talks about 'the smoke of their torment is giong up forever and ever' that sounds pretty bad, but i can't say what is going to be.

well ... that's a good point you bring up ....

Example .. forever and ever

The phrase forever and ever in Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 should be interpreted within other Scriptural context. Isaiah, for example, wrote of the judgment on Edom: “Her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever ” (Isa. 34:9, 10, NRSV; emphasis added).

This passage, in which God predicts that Edom will be burned by fire forever, has four verbal parallels to Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 as well as the thematic parallel of judgment. The fact that Isaiah 34:9, 10 is the only passage in the Bible with this many parallels to the Revelation passages indicates that the author of Revelation would have us interpret “forever and ever,” when referring to the torment of the wicked, in the context of God’s judgment on Edom.

Of course, we know that when Revelation was written, smoke was not going up from the former territory of Edom. “Forever” in the case of Edom cannot, therefore, mean “without end” but points to irrevocable destruction.

Jonah described his experience in the belly of the whale as forever ... and was certainly not the case

Sodom & Gomorra .... destroyed by eternal fie and stated as burning forever .... and it certainly is not.

We use the term (forever) today the same way as well .... such as ... "I had to stand in line forever" or "It took forever to complete the test."

so the word forever does not necessarily mean throughout eternity. It depends on the context.

Clare73 · Nov 29, 2020

Duplicate post.

NBB · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
well ... that's a good point you bring up ....

Example .. forever and ever

The phrase forever and ever in Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 should be interpreted within other Scriptural context. Isaiah, for example, wrote of the judgment on Edom: “Her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever ” (Isa. 34:9, 10, NRSV; emphasis added).

This passage, in which God predicts that Edom will be burned by fire forever, has four verbal parallels to Revelation 14:11, 19:3, and 20:10 as well as the thematic parallel of judgment. The fact that Isaiah 34:9, 10 is the only passage in the Bible with this many parallels to the Revelation passages indicates that the author of Revelation would have us interpret “forever and ever,” when referring to the torment of the wicked, in the context of God’s judgment on Edom.

Of course, we know that when Revelation was written, smoke was not going up from the former territory of Edom. “Forever” in the case of Edom cannot, therefore, mean “without end” but points to irrevocable destruction.

Jonah described his experience in the belly of the whale as forever ... and was certainly not the case

Sodom & Gomorra .... destroyed by eternal fie and stated as burning forever .... and it certainly is not.

We use the term (forever) today the same way as well .... such as ... "I had to stand in line forever" or "It took forever to complete the test."

so the word forever does not necessarily mean throughout eternity. It depends on the context.

I didn't 'knew' lets say reading the bible was so complicated, each one has a different interpretation it seems and we have how many denominations?

What i know is we need to avoid hell, i don't know if sinners are going to burn forever or not. The bible says it could be forever in several parts.

What i know is God is very good and sensitive even specially the Holy spirit, and love, but also a fire and we don't want him to get angry right? it says the wrath of God is revealing with everyone who don't obeys the truth, that can get pretty bad in my view, also says sinners will be punished with eternal condemnation, if they just die and that it, i don't see the punishment there. Not that i wish anyone get punished by the wrath of God.

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
I didn't 'knew' lets say reading the bible was so complicated, each one has a different interpretation it seems and we have how many denominations?

What i know is we need to avoid hell, i don't know if sinners are going to burn forever or not. The bible says it could be forever in several parts.

What i know is God is very good and sensitive even specially the Holy spirit, and love, but also a fire and we don't want him to get angry right? it says the wrath of God is revealing with everyone who don't obeys the truth, that can get pretty bad in my view, also says sinners will be punished with eternal condemnation, if they just die and that it, i don't see the punishment there. Not that i wish anyone get punished by the wrath of God, that looks pretty bad in my view.

They ARE punished ... at the very end (2nd resurrection) they (the lost) are destroyed by fire and do not receive eternal life .... never to live again. The point is punished .... not continuous punishing being tortured forever and ever.

I mean think about it .... if one is a thief .... or one commits adultery ... or one steals ... etc. and does not repent ... do they deserve to "burn in hell forever" ? Even if one is a murderer .... maybe they remained an atheist ... they don't deserve that.

Our loving God does NOT torture people forever or ever ... but they can not be allowed to enter heaven as they are unrepentant and heaven can not be tainted with sin ... so yes in the final judgement God will destroy them ... along with the earth and everything in it.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Nobody is burning in "hell" .... hell is the grave and all wait there (dormant/sleep) and will either come up in the 1st resurrection (of the saved) or the 2nd resurrection (of the lost)

NBB · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
They ARE punished ... at the very end (2nd resurrection) they (the lost) are destroyed by fire and do not receive eternal life .... never to live again. The point is punished .... not continuous punishing being tortured forever and ever.

I mean think about it .... if one is a thief .... or one commits adultery ... or one steals ... etc. and does not repent ... do they deserve to "burn in hell forever" ? Even if one is a murderer .... maybe they remained an atheist ... they don't deserve that.

Our loving God does NOT torture people forever or ever ... but they can not be allowed to enter heaven as they are unrepentant and heaven can not be tainted with sin ... so yes in the final judgement God will destroy them ... along with the earth and everything in it.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

2 Peter 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Nobody is burning in "hell" .... hell is the grave and all wait there (dormant/sleep) and will either come up in the 1st resurrection (of the saved) or the 2nd resurrection (of the lost)

I don't have an opinion on this because i don't know for certain, what i know it *may* be forever because of some scriptures. It seems reasonable? no, it doesn't for me, but i won't create a doctrine out of that thought because i really have no idea.

Clare73 · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Where does it say the wicked are given eternal life? Immortality is only given to the saved .... not the lost.

The two words, "eternal" and "eternal life" do not have the same meaning.

"Eternal life" is qualitative: God's life in the human spirit, given at rebirth.

"Eternal" is quantitative: without end, never ending.

I do not know this "god" who tortures people .... is it OK to torture people? If it's ok for God/Jesus then it's ok for us .... and we instinctively know torture is not ok.

My instincts are neither the measure, nor the judge, of God.

That is the province of Scripture only:

Rev 14:10-11 - where the wicked "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone. . .the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."
Death and annihilation are excluded, for they would be rest from their torment.

Mt 25:46, Rev 2:11, 19:20, 20:6, 10, 14-15, 21:8 reveal that the wicked will live in eternal torment
in the lake of fire.
It is called eternal death because it is the opposite of eternal life.
It is called the second death, because the first death is temporary physical death.
The second death is eternal, in non-ending torment of their immortal spirits.

Romans 9:22

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known,
endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

"endured" is to suffer through, put up with. . .
They are prepared for (made ready for a particular purpose) destruction.
The "patience" is in putting up with them until what they are prepared for occurs--their destruction.
It is not patience for their salvation, when God has prepared (past tense--done deal) them for destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The wicked will be destroyed in the very end .... necessary to eradicate sin.

"Destruction" does not mean to annihilate, either body or soul or spirit,
it means destruction of their well-being.
The Greek word is apollumi, which means kill, waste, ruin or loss of well-being,
or olethros, which means to slay or kill. Neither means loss of being itself, or annihilation.
.

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
I don't have an opinion on this because i don't know for certain, what i know it *may* be forever because of some scriptures. It seems reasonable? no, it doesn't for me, but i won't create a doctrine out of that thought because i really have no idea.

The doctrine (dormant/sleep) is in His Word ... go study it out. The two verses I quoted were directly from Peter ... about destruction of the earth and the ungodly.

It's in His Word ... go study it out.

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

Clare73 said:
The two words, "eternal" and "eternal life" do not mean the same thing.

"Eternal life" is God's life in the human spirit, given at the rebirth.

"Eternal" means without end.

My instincts are neither the measure, nor the judge, of God.

That is the province of Scripture only:

Rev 14:10-11 - where the wicked "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone. . .the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night."
Death is excluded, for death would be rest from their torment.
Mt 25:46, Rev 2:11, 19:20, 20:6, 10, 14-15, 21:8 say the wicked will live in eternal torment
in the lake of fire.
It is called eternal death because it is the opposite of eternal life.
It is called the second death, because the first death is physical death.
The second death is eternal (non-ending) torment of their immortal spirits.

"endured" is to suffer through, put up with. . .

"Destruction" does not mean to annihilate, it means to ruin.
The Greek word is apollumi, which means kill, waste, ruin or loss of well-being,
or olethros, which means to slay or kill.
It does not mean loss of being itself, or annihilation.
.

eh ... well .... go right ahead and believe our loving God tortures people by burning them for eternity ... personally I do not know this monster torturing God that people put forth.

Immortality is NOT given to the lost.

NBB · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
The doctrine (dormant/sleep) is in His Word ... go study it out. The two verses I quoted were directly from Peter ... about destruction of the earth and the ungodly.

It's in His Word ... go study it out.

It suggest both, that we may go to God, and that we may sleep, i don't know.
For example, God is God of the living not of the dead, because for him everyone lives, said Jesus himself referring to Abraham etc.

Clare73 · Nov 29, 2020

eleos1954 said:
eh ... well .... go right ahead and
believe our loving God tortures people by burning them for eternity ... personally I do not know this monster torturing God that people put forth.

Our loving God blesses people for all eternity, while
our just God punishes people for all eternity, which is what Jesus saves from.

While the "hell" (Hades) of Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 16:23; Ac 2:37, 31; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 14
is a KJV mistranslation of the word "Hades," the meaning is correct.
Hades, the place of fire, and Paradise (Abraham's bosom), the place of blessing, are in Sheol, the waiting place of spirits after death (the immortal spirit of Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom, while the immortal spirit of the rich man was in Hades in Jesus' parable of Lk 16:19-31, showing the OT belief in immortality of the spirit),

the "hell" (Gehinna) Jesus uses in Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:8, 9, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43-47; Lk 12:5
is a place of unquenchable fire and torment, which is called the second death.
It is the place where the wicked will live eternally in torment after the final judgment (Rev 20:10).

It is the place into which those whose names are not found written in the book of life
are thrown--the lake of fire (Rev 20:15), which is the second death (Rev 20:14, 21:8),
where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev 20:10).
The lake of fire and the lake of burning sulfur are the same (Rev 20:15, 21:8)--where unbelievers go.

Immortality is NOT given to the lost.

Immortality is why spirits go the abiding place of Sheol when their mortal bodies die,
where Hades is the fire of Sheol (where the immortal spirit of the rich man was--Lk 16:23),
and Paradise (Abraham's bosom) is the blessing of Sheol (where the immortal spirits of Lazarus and Abraham were--Lk 16:22) in Jesus' parable.

Keeping in mind that parables must be based in physical or spiritual facts, not in mere fairy tales, or they cannot serve to illustrate anything true.
.

eleos1954 · Nov 29, 2020

NBB said:
It suggest both, that we may go to God, and that we may sleep, i don't know.
For example, God is God of the living not of the dead, because for him everyone lives, said Jesus himself referring to Abraham etc.

Those who believe never die .... because they will be in the 1st resurrection and will be made immortal ... those in Him will receive everlasting life with Him .... they do not suffer the 2nd death.

He's actively the God of the living .... the dead know nothing.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

John 5:29

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29 and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

childeye 2 · Nov 29, 2020

Southern Stoic said:
We live in the post-modern world where the religious discussion (at least in the West) is often between someone with an atheistic mindset and someone with some form of Christian mindset. When discussing the historicity of the resurrection of Christ the final goal of the Christian seems to be that the unbeliever will experience a personal conversion to the Faith because of their discussion. This seems to be the idea: 1) If the Transcendent (God) is "real," its possible for a human being to rise from the dead. 2) If it can be shown from the historical record that the resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation for what occurred two-thousand years ago (and, of course, we grant that God exists) then there's no reason for the unbeliever not to become a Christian.

Now, let's say we actually lived two-thousand years ago. We all have our own ethnic gods and we worship them in our own styles, in our own lands. We have our own way of life, our own understanding of the gods, and our own beliefs about life and death and what lies beyond the grave. One thing the ancient pagans did not believe in is the "resurrection of the dead." Just one example of this can be taken from the New Testament: The Greeks mocked the apostle Paul when he mentioned the "resurrection" (Acts 17:32).

If I was part of a first century pagan community, why should I become a Christian? You can't prove it through use of the Scriptures (Old or New Testament). . . its not part of our story. Even if it can be "shown" somehow that Jesus did rise from the dead, I see nothing to show that this event means anything more than some kind of ominous omen (to a pagan, anyway), as it violates the natural order. To believe in someone based on that fundamental violation doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't know how a Christian could show an unbeliever "evidence for the resurrection" in light of this. It makes since in today's world when times are so philosophically materialistic and very often a simple selection to choose from (What are you, Christian? atheist? If you're Christian you believe in the resurrection of the BODY. If you're atheist you believe in the ultimate death of the BODY. Both views have varying degrees of materialism). If it's proven, Christ is divine. If its not proven, then back to a more atheistic, "rational" worldview. But when we take a broader gaze of history and take into account various pagan worldviews, I don't see how the "resurrection" belief is tenable.

Respectfully, I find that Christianity presents a rational premise that there is a reason for a temporal existence, wherein the resurrection becomes easy to believe in. Even the extreme alternative of there being no purpose at all for existence has no foundation to reason upon without usurping from that premise. The term 'God' in scripture before adding any imagery, is an axiom meaning the source of the energy that created all things including time. Therefore it's not logical to ask for proof that God exists according to the scriptural definition.

com7fy8 · Nov 29, 2020

Southern Stoic said:
1) If the Transcendent (God) is "real," its possible for a human being to rise from the dead.

Southern Stoic said:
I don't see how the "resurrection" belief is tenable.

Part of God being transcendent is how He is personal, not distant; however, we humans can tend to be mostly about our own selves and about ones who are about us!! So, this anti-love tendency makes us not on the same spiritual wavelength as God, though He is right here with us. I suppose we might say we humans can be the ones who are transcendent, away from God who is more real than we are.

And resurrection is not what fits with how humans tend to live, then, for ourselves. There is judgment included with resurrection. And we humanly, all born in sin, are not interested in being judged later by the Love Being whose standards are not our self-interested ones.

But there is God who is good and is "love" (1 John 4:8&16). And so He is personal and ready for us

. . . though we may wonder if He is > He is more ready and able for love, than we are. And the resurrection we can have now, in this life, is to be resurrected from our selfish character, so we become love-character people like Jesus. The resurrection power of God is almighty to be able to change us, like this, now.

And ones of us humans have already experienced this >

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins," (Ephesians 2:1)

Clare73 · Nov 30, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
I ask this again because it seems to me that things do not add up.
Why is the material resurrection of the body so important if it is so seldom used?

A couple of reasons:

The human spirit is incomplete without its body, and

we must have a resurrection body (sinless) to enter/dwell in heaven,
where there will be full-time use of it.

Of Course Paul in I Corinthians 15 says
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, Christ has not been raised either.
If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is in vain.

Unless, of course he uses it all the time and we do not recognize him,

He uses it "all the time" to clothe/complete his human spirit seated at the right hand of God (Eph 1:20, Col 3:1), the position of authority (Mt 28:18).
While as the divine spirit, second person of the Trinity, he operates world wide without a body.

like as the undocumented alien and the guy on the street asking for money.

17 But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins. 18 And as a further result, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

But I think his statement presume his world view. If there is no resurrection those who have fallen asleep no longer exist in his view. What about an entirely spiritual existence?

No, the meaning of his statement is seen in its context, vv. 13-18.

No resurrection means Jesus was a fraud. If Jesus was a fraud, then Paul had been preaching in vain, Christians had believed in vain, their faith was empty, they were still in their sins, and
those who thought they had died in Christ (forgiven of their sin) had actually perished.

Even IF Christ rose again. . . So what?

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