Even IF Christ rose again. . . So what?

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
'The body goes to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it' ecclesiastes.

Life after death

1. God alone is immortal: The Bible teaches that only God is immortal (1 Tim. 6:16). All other life, including human life, is derived from God. We have life only because God gives us life. Immortality is not innate to humans, but is “conditional” on our connection with God (Acts 17:25, 28; James 4:14; Ps. 78:39).

2. Humans die because of sin: The Bible is clear that every person has sinned (Rom. 5:12) and that “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23; see also Eze. 18:4). The first inhabitants of earth chose to disobey God by eating of the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:17; 3:6). In choosing disobedience, they separated themselves from the source of life. As a consequence, death entered into this world even though it was not part of God’s original plan for His people.

3. Death is an unconscious state (a “sleep”): In order to understand what happens when we die, it is helpful to understand how God created the first inhabitants of this earth. At Creation, God breathed the “breath of life” into “the dust of the ground” (nonliving matter), and “man became a living being” (Gen. 2:7). Note that there is a formula here: Dust + Breath of Life = Living Being (soul). The word “soul” (used in some translations) refers simply to a living person. Similarly, when a person dies they “return to the ground,” for as Scripture explains, “dust you are and to dust you will return” (Gen. 3:19). The “breath of life,” also known as the “spirit,” returns to God (Eccl. 12:7; Ps. 146:3, 4). The Bible does not teach that people have a separate conscious immortal part of their being that continues to exist after death.

At death, all consciousness ends. The dead person does not know anything and does not do anything (Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10). Jesus and the apostles (as well as writers in the Old Testament) frequently referred to death as sleep (e.g., Matt. 9:24; Mark 5:39; John 11:11-14; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4; Dan. 12:2; Job 14:10-12; Ps. 13:3). The image of sleep emphasizes that death is not the end, but is rather an unconscious state prior to the resurrection (note in this regard the resurrection of Lazarus in John 11:11-14, 23-25, 43).

4. The saved will be resurrected at Jesus’ second coming: At Jesus’ second coming those who have fallen asleep in Jesus will be resurrected to life. We are told: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven …, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16). Then those believers who are still alive will be “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (verse 17). These words were written to encourage every believer.

Jesus’ resurrection is of crucial importance for the Christian. The apostle Paul tells us that if Jesus has not been raised from the dead “our preaching is useless” (1 Cor. 15:14) and our “faith is futile” (verse 17). But Jesus “has indeed been raised from the dead” (verse 20). Moreover, “by his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also” (1 Cor. 6:14). We can have confidence in our own resurrection because Jesus Himself rose from the dead.

5. God gives eternal life to the saved: God offers the gift of eternal life to all who believe in Jesus Christ (John 3:16; Rom. 6:23). At the second coming of Jesus the saved will be transformed and will “put on” immortality. “For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality” (1 Cor. 15:52, 53).

6. The unrepentant will be resurrected after the millennium to face judgment: The unrepentant are not resurrected at the second coming of Jesus. They remain “sleeping” in an unconscious state until the end of the millennium, at which time they are resurrected (see Rev. 20:5). This resurrection occurs before the final judgment (verses 12, 13). It seems only fitting that those who are to be judged will be present when the final verdict is given. Jesus speaks of this time: “For a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28, 29).

7. The punishment of the unrepentant is called the second death: After the final judgment the unrepentant receive their punishment. This punishment is called the second death. “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14, 15; see also 21:8). The Bible also uses words such as “perishing” and “destruction” in speaking of the ultimate fate of the unrepentant (e.g., 
2 Peter 3:7, 9; John 3:16; Heb. 10:28; Mal. 4:1). These descriptions confirm that the second death refers to annihilation (or extinction) of the unrepentant, rather than a continual and eternal conscious torment.
 
Upvote 0

coffee4u

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,005
2,817
Australia
✟157,641.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We live in the post-modern world where the religious discussion (at least in the West) is often between someone with an atheistic mindset and someone with some form of Christian mindset. When discussing the historicity of the resurrection of Christ the final goal of the Christian seems to be that the unbeliever will experience a personal conversion to the Faith because of their discussion. This seems to be the idea: 1) If the Transcendent (God) is "real," its possible for a human being to rise from the dead. 2) If it can be shown from the historical record that the resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation for what occurred two-thousand years ago (and, of course, we grant that God exists) then there's no reason for the unbeliever not to become a Christian.

Now, let's say we actually lived two-thousand years ago. We all have our own ethnic gods and we worship them in our own styles, in our own lands. We have our own way of life, our own understanding of the gods, and our own beliefs about life and death and what lies beyond the grave. One thing the ancient pagans did not believe in is the "resurrection of the dead." Just one example of this can be taken from the New Testament: The Greeks mocked the apostle Paul when he mentioned the "resurrection" (Acts 17:32).

If I was part of a first century pagan community, why should I become a Christian? You can't prove it through use of the Scriptures (Old or New Testament). . . its not part of our story. Even if it can be "shown" somehow that Jesus did rise from the dead, I see nothing to show that this event means anything more than some kind of ominous omen (to a pagan, anyway), as it violates the natural order. To believe in someone based on that fundamental violation doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't know how a Christian could show an unbeliever "evidence for the resurrection" in light of this. It makes since in today's world when times are so philosophically materialistic and very often a simple selection to choose from (What are you, Christian? atheist? If you're Christian you believe in the resurrection of the BODY. If you're atheist you believe in the ultimate death of the BODY. Both views have varying degrees of materialism). If it's proven, Christ is divine. If its not proven, then back to a more atheistic, "rational" worldview. But when we take a broader gaze of history and take into account various pagan worldviews, I don't see how the "resurrection" belief is tenable.

An interesting post.

Human beings are in three parts, the physical body, the soul/mind and the spirit just like God is in three parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When Adam sinned he caused the easy connection between man's spirit and God to be broken.

The body can want one thing, the soul another and the spirit yet another, each has it's own role in making us who we are. All three are intertwined but each has it's own specific purpose. The mind cannot do the spirits job just like the body can't do the minds job. At times it can be difficult to divide between soul and spirit but there is a difference.

We make a mistake when we try and search for God with only our mind because the soul/mind alone does not have the ability to find God. That would be like trying to hear with our eye. The spirit in unregenerate man is there but it's asleep and unresponsive. God calls but the spirit has to respond. If our seeking is to 'prove' God or find evidence then it isn't the spirit that is doing the seeking but the soul/mind and by itself it can't form a connection to God. Now the mind/soul does have to be open but it's the spirit that gets woken up with teaching or the scripture.

Scripture is not just clever words, they are there literally to speak to our spirit and our soul. It isn't a matter of reading or hearing scripture or a cleverly written article and thinking it sounds true or useful for life and deciding to believe it. That is the mind/soul. The feeling of conviction and faith can only be felt and experienced by the spirit.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I know we are mortal. When we were created we received the breath of life from God
and became a living being. God didn't "stuff" an immortal soul into us .... we became a soul, which is a living being. The animals have the same breath of life as well.

Before Adam and Eve sinned ... they had access to the tree of life ... of which provided them immortality .... after they sinned God had the angels guard the tree of life ... did so
else Adam and Eve would have become immortal while in a sinful state.

There are many many MANY verses about the state of the dead being termed as a sleep ... including by Jesus Himself.

so you don't believe it .... some don't .... I would encourage others to study if out further.

The immortal soul belief is right out of Egypt ... and then propagated through greek philosophy and then crept into the churches.

Jesus said: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28).(1)

this verse proves that the soul, like
the body, can be destroyed in hell. If the soul can be destroyed,
it is not immortal and it will not suffer eternally in hellfire.
Jesus' parable (Lk 16:19-31) shows the immortal spirit of the rich man to be
in agony in the fire of Hades (v.24)), as
Paul presents (Php 1:21-24)
absence from the body equivalent to presence with the Lord
in
Paul's immortal spirit.
The message of the text is that, although we should not fear man who can destroy the body, we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, and who will destroy the wicked at the end of time (Rev. 20:9, 14, 15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

Where does it say in His Word the unsaved receive immortality?

Matthew 10:28 is thoroughly consistent with Jesus' overall teaching that the "soul" or "life" of the unbeliever will be destroyed eternally. That being the case the soul is not immortal.

and no I don't believe it because His Word does not teach of an immortal "soul".

I agree to disagree but encourage others to carefully study this out for themselves through His Word.
Is our disagreement between soul and spirit (Heb 4:12)?

The immortal human spirit animates the mortal human soul, which animates the mortal human body.

It is the immortal human spirit, not the soul, which receives eternal (God's) life in the rebirth to faith and justification (declared "not guilty," given right-standing before God's Court of Justice).

If so, that is my mistake, and I apologize.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Jesus' parable (Lk 16:19-31) shows the immortal spirit of the rich man to be
in agony in the fire of hell (v.24), as
Paul presents (Php 1:21-24)
absence from the body equivalent to presence with the Lord
in
Paul's immortal spirit.

Is our disagreement between soul and spirit (Heb 4:12)?

The immortal human spirit animates the mortal human soul, which animates the mortal human body.

It is the immortal human spirit, not the soul, which receives eternal (God's) life in the rebirth to faith and justification (declared "not guilty," given right-standing before God's Court of Justice).

If so, that is my mistake, and I apologize.

well .... we disagree about Jesus' parable ... to use it as proof that men receive their rewards at death is squarely to contradict Christ Himself, who states explicitly that the righteous and the wicked receive their reward, "when the Son of man shall come in his glory" (see Matt. 25:31-41). 16:19-31) it's teaching is not about what happens when one dies ....

Is our disagreement between soul and spirit (Heb 4:12)?

The immortal human spirit animates the mortal human soul, which animates the mortal human body.

In Hebrews 4:12

Using Strongs

The word soul ...

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
HELPS Word-studies

5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

ie ... our individual psyche ... what makes us each a unique individual

the word spirit ...

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Definition: wind, spirit
Usage: wind, breath, spirit.
HELPS Word-studies
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]

the breath of God .... His breath that makes us a living being (gives us life) .... such as described of when we were originally created ... animals have the SAME breath ...

Ecclesiastes 3:19

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

so ... when one dies ..... their psyche perishes (their thoughts cease to exist)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust (what our bodies are made of) returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

The breath of life returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished (die ... cease to exist) , and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

All sleep (dormant in the grave) until the Lord returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

Jesus himself called death a sleep .... ie .... Lazarus is asleep .... Lazarus is dead

John 11

11After He had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Also .... Martha believed Lazarus would not rise until the last day.

John 11

24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit (breath of life) is dead (non-existant), so also faith apart from works is dead.

If I am understanding you correctly ...

Our difference is .... you (and others) are claiming you are ... or have something about you that is immortal .... and His Word clearly teaches there is NOTHING immortal about us. We receive the gift of immortality when Jesus returns.

What about Jesus? Did Jesus have a "spirit" that went somewhere? No .... what He did have (in His human form) was the breath of life (breath that sustained His earthly existance).

Matthew 27:50

50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

There is nothing immortal about us until the Lord returns!
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,548
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,475.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
well .... we disagree about Jesus' parable ... to use it as proof that men receive their rewards at death is squarely to contradict Christ Himself, who states explicitly that the righteous and the wicked receive their reward, "when the Son of man shall come in his glory" (see Matt. 25:31-41). 16:19-31) it's teaching is not about what happens when one dies ....



In Hebrews 4:12

Using Strongs

The word soul ...

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
HELPS Word-studies

5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

ie ... our individual psyche ... what makes us each a unique individual

the word spirit ...

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Definition: wind, spirit
Usage: wind, breath, spirit.
HELPS Word-studies
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]

the breath of God .... His breath that makes us a living being (gives us life) .... such as described of when we were originally created ... animals have the SAME breath ...

Ecclesiastes 3:19

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

so ... when one dies ..... their psyche perishes (their thoughts cease to exist)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust (what our bodies are made of) returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

The breath of life returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished (die ... cease to exist) , and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

All sleep (dormant in the grave) until the Lord returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

Jesus himself called death a sleep .... ie .... Lazarus is asleep .... Lazarus is dead

John 11

11After He had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Also .... Martha believed Lazarus would not rise until the last day.

John 11

24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit (breath of life) is dead (non-existant), so also faith apart from works is dead.

If I am understanding you correctly ...

Our difference is .... you (and others) are claiming you are ... or have something about you that is immortal .... and His Word clearly teaches there is NOTHING immortal about us. We receive the gift of immortality when Jesus returns.

What about Jesus? Did Jesus have a "spirit" that went somewhere? No .... what He did have (in His human form) was the breath of life (breath that sustained His earthly existance).

Matthew 27:50

50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

There is nothing immortal about us until the Lord returns!

That if we sleep or stay concious somehow after death is debatable, but that we are not a piece of meat but we have an spirit inside, the spirit is what allows us to have communion with God. And i would say spirits don't die with the body they return to God like the bible says. That if we can be concious or not without bodies i don't know, but we have an spiritual part to us.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That if we sleep or stay concious somehow after death is debatable, but that we are not a piece of meat but we have an spirit inside, the spirit is what allows us to have communion with God. And i would say spirits don't die with the body they return to God like the bible says. That if we can be concious or not without bodies i don't know, but we have an spiritual part to us.

we have our thoughts/mind unique to each of us ... and we have the ability to breath to sustain our earthly existence (which is from God) ..... until we die (earthly death) and then the breath of life (ability to breath) returns to God. There is nothing that lives on when we die earthly death .... we go to the grave and wait for Jesus to return and then will be resurrected, given new heavenly bodies (incorruptible) .... and our thoughts/mind returned to us .... less memories of sin and will not have a sinful nature.

“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. - Isaiah 43:25

Nothing impure will ever enter it (heaven) … but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Revelation 21:27) There is no sin in heaven and there can be no sin in us.

If one believes they have anything conscious after earthly death (ie immortal soul) ... they believe they are immortal. There is no such thing as a "immortal soul".
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,548
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,475.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
we have our thoughts/mind unique to each of us ... and we have the ability to breath to sustain our earthly existence (which is from God) ..... until we die (earthly death) and then the breath of life (ability to breath) returns to God. There is nothing that lives on when we die earthly death .... we go to the grave and wait for Jesus to return and then will be resurrected, given new heavenly bodies (incorruptible) .... and our thoughts/mind returned to us .... less memories of sin and will not have a sinful nature.

“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. - Isaiah 43:25

Nothing impure will ever enter it (heaven) … but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Revelation 21:27) There is no sin in heaven and there can be no sin in us.

If one believes they have anything conscious after earthly death (ie immortal soul) ... they believe they are immortal. There is no such thing as a "immortal soul".

I agree to disagree i guess, we are spiritual beings for the most part our body is just the carcass/outside cover, i even discerned my soul in some occasions.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I agree to disagree i guess, we are spiritual beings for the most part our body is just the carcass/outside cover, i even discerned my soul in some occasions.

As long as we are alive on earth we can and do indeed have a spiritual relationship with the Lord .... that happens through our thoughts/mind .... of which dies (ceases to exist) when we die earthly death.

You/we discern with your/our thoughts/mind and in accordance with His Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Psalms 146:4 'His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.'

Psalm 104:29
When You hide Your face, they panic; when You take away their breath, they die and return to dust.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
well .... we disagree about Jesus' parable ... to use it as proof that men receive their rewards at death is squarely to contradict Christ Himself, who states explicitly that the righteous and the wicked receive their reward, "when the Son of man shall come in his glory" (see Matt. 25:31-41). 16:19-31) it's teaching is not about what happens when one dies ....
and His Word clearly teaches there is NOTHING immortal about us. We receive the gift of immortality when Jesus returns.
Our reward is not immortality, which our spirits already have (Php 1:21-24; Lk 16:9-31) as seen in Jesus' parable (Lk 16:19-31) where the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of Hades in Sheol, while the immortal spirit of Lazarus is in the bosom (at the side) of Abraham (Paradise), both of whom are living immortals spirits in Sheol. . .as well as
Heb 12:22-23, where the (immortal) spirits of righteous men made perfect (OT saints) are presently in the church of the firstborn.

Jesus also shows the same in Lk 20:37-38:

He says that God told Moses "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (Ex 3:6), who were long dead.
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for unto him all are alive." (no annihilation)
Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living. . .their spirits are immortal.

So no, our reward is not the immortality of our spirit which we already have, our reward is the clothing again of our immortal spirits with their spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) bodies at the resurrection when the Son of Man shall come in glory.

Paul reveals that while we are in this earthly tent (our body), "we groan because" our immortal spirit does "not wish to be unclothed" by the dismantling (death) of its earthly tent; it is unnatural to us in the highest degree; our immortal spirit would rather just have its body changed in the twinkling of an eye, than "be found naked" without the clothing of its body (2Co 5:1-4).

Our spirits groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption as sons at the resurrection of our bodies, the final stage of our adoption (Ro 8:23), where our immortal spirits will once again be clothed, this time in ever so splendid array.
If I am understanding you correctly ...

Our difference is .... you (and others) are claiming you are ... or have something about you that is immortal ....
Yes. . .the human spirit is immortal, as is the human soul, while the human body is mortal.
What about Jesus?
Yes, Jesus had an immortal human spirit in which was eternal (i.e., God's) life, just as did Adam.
Adam lost God's life in his immortal spirit by disobedience.
Jesus maintained it by obedience.
Did Jesus have a "spirit" that went somewhere? No .... what He did have (in His human form) was the breath of life (breath that sustained His earthly existance).
As a matter of fact, the NT shows that he did.

Peter reveals (1Pe 3:18-20) that the immortal spirit of Jesus, at his death and before his resurrection, went to Hades (erroneously called "hell" when the KJV was translated and the Apostles' Creed was formulated) to make proclamation (presumably of his kingdom and appointment as the world's judge)
to the spirits in prison (presumably the fallen angels of 2Pe 2:4).
In Hebrews 4:12

Using Strongs

The word soul ...

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.
HELPS Word-studies

5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

5590 (psyxē) corresponds exactly to the OT 5315 /phágō ("soul"). The soul is the direct aftermath of God breathing (blowing) His gift of life into a person, making them an ensouled being.

ie ... our individual psyche ... what makes us each a unique individual

the word spirit ...

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Definition: wind, spirit
Usage: wind, breath, spirit.
HELPS Word-studies
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]

the breath of God .... His breath that makes us a living being (gives us life) .... such as described of when we were originally created ... animals have the SAME breath ...

Ecclesiastes 3:19

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

so ... when one dies ..... their psyche perishes (their thoughts cease to exist)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
And the dust (what our bodies are made of) returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

The breath of life returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished (die ... cease to exist) , and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psalm 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

All sleep (dormant in the grave) until the Lord returns and the 1st resurrection happens.

Jesus himself called death a sleep .... ie .... Lazarus is asleep .... Lazarus is dead

John 11

11After He had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”12His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Also .... Martha believed Lazarus would not rise until the last day.

John 11

24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit (breath of life) is dead (non-existant), so also faith apart from works is dead.

Matthew 27:50

50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." And when He had said this, He breathed His last.
There is nothing immortal about us until the Lord returns!
Except for what Jesus (Lk 16:19-31, 20:37-38), Paul (1Php 1:21-24) and Peter (1 Pe3:18-20) reveal.
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
6,720
4,887
69
Midwest
✟278,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What is the point of a resurrected body anyway if it is so seldom used? When is the last time anyone saw Jesus?
I ask this again because it seems to me that things do not add up. Why is the material resurrection of the body so important if it is so seldom used?

Of Course Paul in I Corinthians 15 says
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, Christ has not been raised either. Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith is in vain.


Unless, of course he uses it all the time and we do not recognize him, like as the undocumented alien and the guy on the street asking for money.
17 But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins. 18 And as a further result, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

But I think his statement presume his world view. If there is no resurrection those who have fallen asleep no longer exist in his view. What about an entirely spiritual existence?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Our reward is not immortality, which our spirits already have (Php 1:21-24; Lk 16:9-31) as seen in Jesus' parable (Lk 16:9-31) where the immortal spirit of the rich man is in agony in the fire of hell, while the immortal spirit of Lazarus is in the bosom (at the side) of Abraham, likewise a living immortal spirit. . .as well as Heb 12:22-23, where the (immortal) spirits of righteous men made perfect (OT saints) are in the church of the firstborn.

No, our reward is not the immortality of our spirit which we already have, it is the clothing again of our immortal spirits with their spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) bodies at the resurrection when the Son of Man shall come in glory.

Paul reveals that when the earthly tent (our body) is destroyed (by death and decay), our immortal spirit groans as we await the Lord's return, because we long for the perfection (completion) that will be ours when we put on our resurrection spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful, imperishable) bodies (2Co 5:1-4), the same as Jesus' glorious resurrection spiritual body.

Yes. . .the human spirit is immortal, while the human soul and human body are mortal.

Yes, Jesus had an immortal human spirit in which was eternal (i.e., God's) life, just as did Adam.
Adam lost God's life in his spirit by disobedience.
Jesus maintained it by obedience.

And Peter reveals (1Pe 3:18-20) that the immortal spirit of Jesus, at his death and before his resurrection, went to Hades (erroneously called "hell" when the KJV was translated and the Apostles' Creed was formulated) to make proclamation (presumably of his kingdom and appointment as the world's judge) to the spirits in prison (presumably the fallen angels of 2Pe 2:4).
Except for what Jesus (Lk 16:9-31), Paul (1Php 1:21-24) and Peter (1 Pe3:18-20) reveal.
.

I used to believe what you believe .... I know all the verses/passages/theology that people pull out to support immortality .... however .... after very careful study ... I found it to be overwhelmingly scripturally NOT SO.

Hell is the grave .... Lazarus is a parable ... not an actual happening and is not teaching about the state of the dead. Nobody is "burning in hell". Jesus didn't go to a "burning hell" .... He rested in the tomb .... just like scripture says He did.

so I agree to disagree .... all I ask that people take the time for their own personal non-bias diligent study about it ... meaning .... put aside their current taught beliefs (church or otherwise) and re-study it out .... and look deeply into scripture about the matter.

We are NOT immortal in any way. Mystery Babylon.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,548
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,475.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I used to believe what you believe .... I know all the verses/passages/theology that people pull out to support immortality .... however .... after very careful study ... I found it to be overwhelmingly scripturally NOT SO.

Hell is the grave .... Lazarus is a parable ... not an actual happening and is not teaching about the state of the dead. Nobody is "burning in hell". Jesus didn't go to a "burning hell" .... He rested in the tomb .... just like scripture says He did.

so I agree to disagree .... all I ask that people take the time for their own personal non-bias diligent study about it ... meaning .... put aside their current taught beliefs (church or otherwise) and re-study it out .... and look deeply into scripture about the matter.

We are NOT immortal in any way. Mystery Babylon.

We have an spirit which is redundantly spirit, and as far i know spirit can't die.
Angels don't have a body, but they lived forever since their creation, and if God doesn't destroy them they will live forever, we have also our spiritual part, i have discerned this myself so i don't have only an study or interpretation but actual proof for myself that we have a soul, i disagree a bit that the soul is mortal though the soul is spiritual and cannot die.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We have an spirit which is redundantly spirit, and as far i know spirit can't die.
Angels don't have a body, but they lived forever since their creation, and if God doesn't destroy them they will live forever, we have also our spiritual part, i have discerned this myself so i don't have only an study or interpretation but actual proof for myself that we have a soul, i disagree a bit that the soul is mortal though the soul is spiritual and cannot die.

Genesis 2:7, NLT: "Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person."

Genesis 2:7, KJV: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

a soul is not something you possess .... it is what you are .... a living person, a living being.
 
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,548
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,475.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Genesis 2:7, NLT: "Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person."

Genesis 2:7, KJV: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

a soul is not something you possess .... it is what you are .... a living person, a living being.

But the soul is spiritual, its not your neurons, and as an spirit it cannot die by old age or something.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
But the soul is spiritual, its not your neurons, and as an spirit it cannot die by old age or something.

the "soul" .... makes up the entire person ....

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Gen. 2:7, NKJV).

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul (a living person), and spirit (of life from God) in one indivisible whole.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls (persons).

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

souls (persons) can be destroyed (not immortal) ... we are not immortal in any way
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,548
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,475.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
the "soul" .... makes up the entire person ....

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Gen. 2:7, NKJV).

Scripture gives us a simple equation for understanding the nature of humans:
Body (dust of the ground; the earth's elements) plus
Breath of life ("spirit" of life from God) equals
A living person (a soul).

Nowhere does the Bible speak of the soul as an immortal entity capable of living apart from our body. Neither does it speak of the spirit as an entity which can exist independent of our physical nature. We are not made of independent parts temporarily connected, but of body, soul (a living person), and spirit (of life from God) in one indivisible whole.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls (persons).

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

souls (persons) can be destroyed (not immortal) ... we are not immortal in any way

The bible talks people 'thinks in their heart' this is not something poetic, we hava an spiritual heart which is part of the soul and its basically our person center with all the griefs and what we like hapiness, wounds and even pride and humility all is there, its not our flesh heart of course.
 
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The bible talks people 'thinks in their heart' this is not something poetic, we hava an spiritual heart which is part of the soul and its basically our person center with all the griefs and what we like hapiness, wounds and even pride and humility all is there, its not our flesh heart of course.

yes .... but when we die that ceases to exist .... our heart & mind cease to exist.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I used to believe what you believe .... I know all the verses/passages/theology that people pull out to support immortality .... however .... after very careful study ... I found it to be overwhelmingly scripturally NOT SO.

Hell is the grave ....Nobody is "burning in hell". Jesus didn't go to a "burning hell" ....
Yes, in the KJV, the "hell" of Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 16:23; Ac 2:37, 31; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 14
is a mistranslation of "Hades," which is in Sheol, the waiting place of spirits after death. And since
Mt 11:23 is a translation of Isa 14:13-15, and Ac 2:27, 31 is a translation of Ps 16:10, both speaking of Hades, both those verses mistranslate Hades as "hell."
But the meaning is the same, Hades is the place of fire in Sheol,
while Abraham's bosom (Paradise) is the place of blessing in Sheol.

But the "hell" (Gehinna) Jesus uses in Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:8, 9, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43-47; Lk 12:5
is a place of unquenchable fire and torment, which is called the second death. It is the place where the wicked will live eternally in torment after the final judgment (Rev 20:10).
Lazarus is a parable ... not an actual happening and is not teaching about the state of the dead.
If parables aren't based on physical or spiritual facts, but simply are fairy tales, they cannot serve as illustrations of anything true.
so I agree to disagree .... all I ask that people take the time for their own personal non-bias diligent study about it ... meaning .... put aside their current taught beliefs (church or otherwise) and re-study it out .... and look deeply into scripture about the matter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NBB

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 19, 2013
3,548
1,537
44
Uruguay
✟445,475.00
Country
Uruguay
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
yes .... but when we die that ceases to exist .... our heart & mind cease to exist.

That doesn't make sense, we are going to get a new body, and God it says is going to wipe our tears, why we are goint to cry if our heart and mind died you are saying the heart and mind is going to be ressurected?, the bible talks about resurrecting bodies not souls.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Yes, in the KJV, the "hell" of Mt 11:23, 16:18; Lk 16:23; Ac 2:37, 31; Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13, 14 is a mistranslation of "Hades," which mean the gates of Sheol and death. And since Mt 11:23 is a translation of Isa 14:13-15, and Ac 2:27, 31 is a translation of Ps 16:10, both speaking of Sheol, both those verses mistranslate Sheol as "hell," causing no small amount of confusion.

But the "hell" Jesus uses in Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:8, 9, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43-47; Lk 12:5 is a place of unquenchable fire and torment, which is called the second death. It is the place where the wicked will live eternally after the final judgment (Rev 20:10).
If parables aren't based on physical or spiritual facts, but are simply fairy tales, they cannot serve as illustrations of anything true.

wicked will live eternally after the final judgment

Where does it say the wicked are given eternal life? Immortality is only given to the saved .... not the lost.

I do not know this "god" who tortures people .... is it OK to torture people? If it's ok for God/Jesus then it's ok for us .... and we instinctively know torture is not ok.

Proverbs 14:11

The house of the wicked will be destroyed,
But the tent of the upright will flourish.


Psalm 94:23

He has brought back their wickedness upon them
And will destroy them in their evil;
The Lord our God will destroy them.

Psalm 92:7


That when the wicked sprouted up like grass
And all who did iniquity flourished,
It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.


Psalm 92:7


That when the wicked sprouted up like grass
And all who did iniquity flourished,
It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.


Psalm 92:7

That when the wicked sprouted up like grass
And all who did iniquity flourished,
It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.


Romans 9:22

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The wicked will be destroyed in the very end .... necessary to eradicate sin.
 
Upvote 0